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My wife and I are trying to determine whether reconciliation is something that we believe to be in our best interest. I was certain that it was, but as we progress I'm starting to realize how important loyalty is to me and how deep the feelings of betrayal are running through my core.

I have come across a couple "save my marriage" things on-line and was just curious if anyone had any experience with them. I read somewhere a pretty positive review of Mort Fertel's system.

If it would be beneficial, I don't mind buying a few books or doing some exercises to either strengthen my marriage or my self-worth. But I don't want to chase a gimmick down a rabbit hole either. I know I have real work to do and don't want to waste time.

I've not done a boot camp, I have read a lot of books, including Mort. I like Mort, he makes some good points, but his material is relationship building -- which means one has to have a genuinely remorseful WS. And it takes a bit of time observing for changed behavior.

I can say this, if you really want to reconcile, there are no short cuts.

The more I tried to 'hurry' to a decision or a conclusion it blew up in my face. And I'm talking strictly about my own recovery.

I did get lucky with a great marriage counselor, who eventually revealed he understood my situation because he was betrayed as well.

For us and our situation, it wasn't about 'loyalty' -- it was about the issues my wife needed to confront in herself. She betrayed her own self worth first and needed to fix that before she would become a safe partner for anyone.

And I had to determine what I wanted or needed from the marriage once I was certain my own self worth again.

Boot camps can only help re-establish a connection if both partners are committed to it -- sort of the same thing needed to rebuild a relationship without a boot camp.

If you're still not sure what you want, which can take and should take some time, I personally would wait on signing up for stuff.

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 12:40 PM, October 28th (Monday)]

I am the WS, I hope it's okay to respond to your post.

So, by what I can tell you guys are like really, really early out. Confirm when you DDday was, but I see you posted in JFO Forum a few days back.

Honestly, these are such early and turbulent days. I don't think you will know for some time if R is for you or not. You will spend the next several months in shock. She will need to be committed to the process of discovering her "how and why she could do this". It's way too early for marital counseling because it wasn't the marriage that was broken that caused this to happen. It was your wife that has the issue and is broken.

So, it's my suggestion she attends individual counseling to start with. You can't reconcile with someone who hasn't learned why she has done what she has done, what she needs to do to change those things within herself, and become a safe and remorseful partner to anyone.

As for whether you are willing to wait and see how things go or not, that is completely your prerogative, but putting money out for a program like this, I would say it's too early. She needs to heal and fix herself. You need more time to heal, then together you can heal the marriage. And, this is a long process.

I would say the way it looked for us was:

Months 1-6 - H was in shock and started showing signs of grieving. I was swimming in shame and while I felt all sorts of regrets, I didn't have the perspective at all as to what I did to him...the magnitude of it.

Months 6-9 He was in an anger phase, I was dedicated in IC from before I confessed still through this point. But, I was just getting a handle on what I did to him and why I did the things I did.

9.5 months out he asked for a divorce, we started in house separation.

Somewhere in month 10 he decided he wanted to R, like really landed on it. I think my actions and change were really starting to show and he had gone down the path of planning the divorce and decided he had his ducks in a row as a "safety net" of sorts. We started marriage counseling at that time, I stayed in IC.

Months 12-18 - we made a lot of effort to reestablish our connection, I continued working on myself and was making the most progress of all the time combined. He started to soften. We were able to spend time away from discussing the affair for small stretches. He was still up and down - sometimes distant, sometimes close. Somewhere in there we did go to a workshop that did help us in reconnecting, it was a Science of Love by Dr. Gottman.

Months 18 - Present (we are about 27 months out from DDAY and 29 months out from the affair) We have been really visioning what we want our marriage to be, we have been rebuilding a lot of things and some of it is completely new. We reference the A some, but probably only have a meaningful discussion about it once a month to six weeks. We are present. In many ways our marriage is significantly deeper and open. I wish our marriage had been this way all along, I will never love the path I took in having an affair. I wish I would have gotten help without having that event occur. But, I do think we are both very happy that we chose to R and feel a very strong connection again.

But, if you had asked him during the first year, it depended on the day and usually it depended on the hour. That being said I think that some people know straight off that D is the right path for them, and that should be a consideration. But, I also think that sometimes it looks more like "I will stay because of this (insert reason) now, and that reason just evolves. For some, it still ends in divorce, but for others it ends in something better and finding peace again.

Right now, your wife is not a safe person, she has a lot of stuff to fix. She is not nearly to the point she could have learned her lessons or what she needs to know or change. So, if you think R might be a possibility, watch and wait. Healing is possible, I would recommend reading about Detachment (there is a good article about doing a 180 in the healing library) because you need to work on healing no matter what the outcome is and no matter what the WS is doing. Just my two cents. Take care, focus on self care, focus on what you need, and don't put any pressure on yourself to do anything.

Thanks for that insight, Hikingout. I appreciate it. I have been dealing with this over the past 6 weeks. She and I are both in individual therapy and planning to find another counselor for both of us at some point. Currently, I believe that she is wavering on whether she wants this marriage or not. I'm working to distance and protect myself currently. I am more lonely than I could have ever imagined, but trying to stay strong and focus on the 180.

I feel like we almost need counseling and individual work before we ever determine whether the marriage is salvageable. I'm just trying to wrap my head around some sort of process or timeline. I guess my natural inclination as a "fixer" continues to rear its head. I know that I have to let her sort her shit out and I have to be patient as we explore options. But my natural instinct for the past 15 years has been to protect her. Its hard to give that up.

Well, for what it's worth, I wavered back and forth in the beginning as well. Maybe not as outwardly. It takes a lot of time to get to past the brainwashing that a wayward has done to themselves. The justifications and lies we told ourselves to deal with the cognitive dissonance of an affair. So, none of what you describe is unique for where you are in your timeline. One day you will look back at where you are at 6 weeks and you will realize how early this is, but right now it's been so emotionally exhausting it feels like it's been 6 years. I totally get it.

I have come across a couple "save my marriage" things on-line and was just curious if anyone had any experience with them.

We’re trying to work things out and both want to rebuild our M. Signed up to a 7-week tele bootcamp and finding it very helpful.

I believe that is the key. We just have to get to a point where we both are confident saying that we want to give it a shot. Otherwise, reconciliation will never work. At first, I was certain that I would do anything to save the marriage. Currently, it looks like her heart is softening and I am having real trouble even getting to a point where I believe I could trust her again. I'll always love her, but the bitterness of betrayal is really setting in now that I am beginning to gather myself and spend some time working on myself. I wasn't a perfect husband, but I have always loved her and had good intentions. I deserve better and am starting to feel like it is ok to demand it.

Betrayal is horrific. Even though I have lots of positive steps coming from my WH, I have full transparency (his google activity, location tracker, all passwords, etc) & the actions for the most part are spot on, I am not sure I will ever trust him again. I can't say for sure, but this was a huge breach of trust & I can imagine it will take a very long time to even get close. The only reason I have any "trust" right now is because I can see for myself that what he says hes doing or where hes at, I can see it for myself. We are 26 months out from dday for reference.

Editing to add, it took my WH over 4 months to get to a place where he strongly considered staying M & working on it. Even after that, he did a lot of hurtful things for many months. All of those set us back. I found a few books really helped both of us, a couple good websites, and I was committed from the start to R which my WH has thanked me for. I would certainly do some things different if I could go back to those early days.

[This message edited by tikismom at 10:05 AM, October 29th (Tuesday)]

I found a few books really helped both of us, a couple good websites, and I was committed from the start to R which my WH has thanked me for.

Tikismum I’ve started a thread on infidelity literature in the Book forum - would you be happy to share your reccos? Many thanks

Hikingout - This may not be the best place to ask, but can I ask what made you finally decide to reconcile? Was your husband professing love or indifference towards you? I feel that my wife is overwhelmed by her selfishness and actions, but she is also incredibly stubborn. I am inclined to move forward and make her choose a path, but I am worried that too much pressure too soon will just make her double down and "prove that she is right."

As I am working towards determining whether reconciliation is something that I can possibly offer, I am having some trouble with the 180 with regard to her contact with the other guy. Should I just steer clear and allow her to be in contact with him without objection? Or should I continue to let her know that her continued contact is unacceptable and is moving me towards the determination that divorce may be my only viable option?

Nothing about this situation makes logical sense to me right now, and I don't want to seem weak or overbearing when she doesn't even know whether she wants to continue with the marriage. Should I just let her do her thing, protect and work on myself, and wait on the decision deadline that I have stated?

wait on the decision deadline

what decision deadline? She married you. She doesn't get to date. give her 30 seconds to decide. You or him. Absolutely no contact or divorce. Period.

[This message edited by sewardak at 2:59 PM, October 30th (Wednesday)]

wait on the decision deadline

what decision deadline? She married you. She doesn't get to date. give her 30 seconds to decide. You or him. Absolutely no contact or divorce. Period.

This is one of the things I would have changed. I was way too nice to him about everything, too understanding. My WH told me he didn't want to be with me, wasn't in love with me, and didn't know if he could stay with me. I gave him time after time of messing up. It has been so horrendous in the healing process. I wish I filed for D right away so he would have started seeing the true consequences earlier. In the end, he was with her 2X after my dday, which is 2 times too many. Don't let her date while she is a married woman. I think filing for D will stop her in her tracks & actually make a decision (thats if R is wanted by you.)

My wife and I are trying to determine whether reconciliation is something that we believe to be in our best interest.

You're wasting your time. If she is not begging you for R, and promising that she will devote every fiber of her being to making things right with you, every day, for the rest of your life, then there is absolutely zero chance R will succeed. You might decide to rug-sweep and remain in an unfaithful marriage, but don't kid yourself that it would look anything like R.

Decision deadline

Again wasting your time. Seriously, what more invitation do you need from her to get out of the marriage. Your children will be fine. In fact, they will be way better off than growing up watching their father grovel and prostate himself merely to stay in a faithless, loveless marriage.

She needs to go NC.

Any contact (just passing in the street) tends to rekindle the very feelings she should be negating.

In addition, the continued contact puts you in continual competition with the OM. She's constantly comparing her fantasy of him and what their life would be (another fantasy) to you.

As a husband you can never compete with the fantasy and thrills she gets from every compliment he sends her way.

BTW: your MC should have addressed this and insisted that she go NC, otherwise she's wasting money.

I understand that she needs to go NC, but she is wavering over whether she wants to stay in the marriage or not. She knows that she can't keep in contact with him if she wants this marriage to work.

Honestly, through individual counseling, I am starting to question whether I can live with her after the type of betrayal she has inflicted on me. That is why I am trying to take a little time to make sure we both mean it if we enter into any type of reconciliation. I know it would never work unless we are both 100% in. Right now neither of us are, but I don't know that it is completely off the table either.

I appreciate the advice I am getting, but I don't mind wasting a little time in order to make sure I'm making the best decision for my kids. I've been in a happy marriage for 14 years and she is obviously not thinking clearly. I am taking steps to look out for myself, but am reluctant to just drop her like that (I know it sounds crazy and looks even crazier when I write it out).

FFF - if you stay together, IMO you will regret giving her this time to figure it out. What would you tell your son to do if his wife was acting like this? Wait it out?

The WS has to be totally on board with wanting to repair the damage they have caused. They have to be on a positive road to recovery before any of that stuff is going to be effective. If they still blame you for any part of the affair, they are not going to take it seriously or feel like you are trying to control them. Those programs are designed to repair marriages, not people. The people need to be repaired before the marriage has any chance of surviving.

Every single one of those programs are designed for you to purchase a program they have designed to help repair your marriage. The programs are not cheap at all. The ones that you may find that are reasonably priced are run by people with no real certifications or qualifications. Anyone can call themselves a "coach". I was so desperate to find a fix to my broken wife and marriage that I spent hours and hours following all of those Youtube coaches...until I found SI. This site is the real deal. We still need IC to heal and it will be expensive, but you get real life experience and advice for what to expect. Good luck!

I am sorry, I had missed your question yesterday.

First, there needs to be NC with the OM. That's a complete and total no. Romantic Infidelity/Limerance is essentially love addiction. We have many WS who come here that can't stop pining for the AP and it's because they are still stalking their Facebook, or having indirect contact. There can be NO CONTACT indirect, direct or otherwise.

I will be honest, the AP took care of that for me, he was caught. He went NC immediately and never looked back so it wasn't something I had to really do for myself. Read the article "Romanic Infidelity" by Dr. Frank Pittman, you can google it and find it easily. She is in the air because she's been allowed to.

So, start with NC. You will make no headway until that is established and while you are allowing it you are playing "pick me". She essentially thinks she can choose whatever she wants, and she is not being respectful.

As for how long and how I decided I wanted my marriage...I wish I could tell you that I just immediately put myself all in and wanted it with all my heart. That wouldn't be true. It took some time for me to start thinking clearly. I was basically addicted and needed to go through withdrawal. But, I did understand that I wasn't thinking clearly, and the only thing I can say I did right was I decided to confess, and really see if we could get back to where we needed to go. I committed immediately to that. Like on day one of the confession. I still wasn't sure where it would go and I owed my husband a whole lot more than I gave him, but it put the thing in motion for me.

I will say he didn't put up with much, he knew he deserved more and respect. That was his boundary and it was understood. You need to say you will not share her with the other man and then give her the ultimatum that you have been nervous to give her. Until she has some idea of how much she has to lose she is going to continue to cake eat and do what she wants. You are investing with a woman who isn't there if she is still in contact, and that is unhealthy for you and also enabling her. At the same time, I would 100% tell the OM's spouse/girlfriend if there is one. The affair bridge needs burned down from both sides. Is he married too?

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:46 PM, October 31st (Thursday)]

I understand that she needs to go NC, but she is wavering over whether she wants to stay in the marriage or not. She knows that she can't keep in contact with him if she wants this marriage to work.

And yet she's still in contact with him. So what does that tell you?

Your WW thinks she's in the catbird seat with two lovers vying for her grand self. How do you think she'll behave once she's finally given her much sought out blessing to one of you? Do you think she's going to be ready to get down to work on a healthy, reciprocal relationship? Do you think if she chooses you that she's going to be willing to make amends for her perfidy?.. work hard to correct the deficits in her character? Or is she going to expect you to be GRATEFUL that she chose you?

This is why we don't do the "pick me polka". Because they don't come back hat in hand and ready to work. They come back with their giant overblown ego thinking that they're some kind of valuable prize.

On my own DDay, I told my WH that I knew he was cheating, that I didn't give a fuck about the details, that I was going to divorce him. He got to choose whether he'd like that divorce the easy way or the hard way. He selected easy. I told him to split the banking and I'd find us an attorney, then I went about the 180 before I even knew what it was.

Within days, he was asking me for time to prove himself. I gave him 30 days and told him that there could be no contact with the OW. Of course, he used that time to try some kind of "let her down gently" bullshit on the OW. So, when I caught him out emailing her, I gave him about 30 seconds to decide if he was "all in" or "all out". I meant it too. I was done playing. He chose the marriage and ghosted the OW from that day forward.

Since then, he has changed jobs, moved our family out of state, changed phone numbers, closed email accounts and messaging apps, and shared all passwords. He takes me on expensive vacations, buys me anything I look at twice, and just in generally treats me like a new girlfriend he badly wants to impress. That was nearly 5 years ago. And even though we have had occasional bumps in the road (particularly while he was learning to develop good boundaries for the first time in his life), I've had no cause to doubt his fidelity again.

It's up to you, of course, how you want to handle your situation. Just bear in mind that the problem with the "pick me" is that even when it works, it doesn't work. Because it leaves the WS in the driver's seat of R... with their fantasies and wayward mindset intact.