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So, I've posted about my d-day a while ago. At this point about 2 months past d-day. We both have IC, and a MC together. We are living separate in the same house (COVID/Kids/$$). It's kinda working. However, she's still in the fog and doesn't know what she wants to do. Feels pulled in both directions right now.

Last session with MC we discussed our pasts. Her having a feeling of neglect from her family and my issues of not sharing my feelings and being "the rock" and not taking chances.

So, here we are. In a week, our PA County goes "Yellow" which opens up some services a bit more and we'll be Green probably in a month.

I'm in a yucky holding pattern right now. I go back and forth on waiting for a movement from her to R (she's still in contact with dude/emotionally connected), or do I call it quits. She knows my one requirement is a movement to NC with dude. She doesn't flaunt dude in front of me, but I know when she goes to "hide", its to talk to him many of the times. Prior to D-Day, we never had fights, never mean to each other. I was just oblivious to what she was feeling and she was oblivious to what I was feeling. Communications error.

So, my current plan that I discussed with my IC and MC is to wait. Give some more time for the fog to potentially clear. Don't pester for answers yet but just take the time to work on my own issues. (Which I'm doing.) But he(IC) also said, I should have a deadline in my head. So, right now my deadline is August.

Thoughts on timing? I know some of you will say dump and run and stop dancing. I get that. But really, the affair has been short, we don't hate each other (yet), so I do want to let her sort out her issues while I sort out mine. I also know that if by deadline, that I will have to probably make the call. And whatever improvements I made for myself will be leveraged to with a new relationship with either be my current wife or someone new.

But I am tired...

Oh, and I just read this: https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/healing_library/divorce/no_contact.asp

I think I need to start doing this more...

I'm going to give you a modified answer to this question you posed:

Thoughts on timing? I know some of you will say dump and run and stop dancing. I get that.

Dump and run - at least temporarily. You cannot negotiate the terms of a reconciliation with someone who is entertaining more "offers" from other parties. It simply does not work - ever. I know. I lived it as have many others on this site. You, unfortunately have to make the decision to disengage with her if she wants to continue. Then, and only then, if she makes the decision to stop, will you have a choice. Right now, you have no choice as to whether YOU want to R. No amount of marriage counseling or anything else will help you here.

You have to stop being afraid to lose your marriage. You have already lost it.

You deserve so much better than being a plan B. Why not plan on a separation and get yourself in that headspace. Do what you need to do for yourself. Let her do what she needs to do for herself, on her own (even in house separated you can still keep yourselves as roommates and not partners).

You can always change your mind and decide to try again, but you get yourself off that horrible rollercoaster, and you stop letting her call the shots. Being in the mindset of putting your own needs (and that of the kids) first and taking care of yourself first will be a million times healthier than just waiting for her to make up her mind. You know you deserve better than that, and three months of emotional torture will wear on you so hard. It's not worth it.

You don't have to dump her. You just need to take back your power and control, and take care of yourself first.

I guess if you are ok being plan B for your wife then waiting until August may be ok.

For me if she was still talking to the guy, and I hope she does not get to go and sleep with him, but if she was even talking to the guy that would be it.

I am not really sure how somebody can look at themselves in the mirror everyday and yet continue to take this kind of disrespect.

It is your life though...

Hello, Geek. As a WW, this is the first opportunity I have had to post to you, because I can't post in JFO.

My affair was many years ago. My BH's single biggest regret is that he did not demand and enforce NC, even if it meant the end of our relationship. That terrible limbo of seeing me in contact with OM (the A was over, but I insisted we could be "just friends") gave him long term PTSD. When I finally agreed to end it, we rugswept. He was so grateful that OM was history that he was afraid to process the trauma he had experienced, for fear of my running right back to him. This went on for decades. A year and a half ago, under other life stresses, all that pain came roiling back to the surface. That's when he pushed for us to talk about it, and discovered that because I had never learned true remorse -- I never had to, because he took me back without it -- I had been lying to him all that time about the extent of the A. This discovery tore him apart as thoroughly as the first time, but now, he was 29 years older and with far fewer options. What I did was an abusive nightmare from which we are still recovering.

I know that it can be hard to hear 2x4s and absolutism, but I want to chime in as someone who has lived a lot of what you describe from the wayward side. It would have been a gift to me if my BH had (in my favorite phrase I ever read here) "slapped me across the face with the cold carp of reality" and told me to end it or he was walking away. The only schedule that makes sense for this is right now. I say this as someone who has three kids, including one that's ready to enter college and an 8th grader with spectrum issues. I know what it would mean to blow up their world. Waiting this out will not make this easier on any of you, and she is not going to just wake up while in full limerent, NRE mode.

Watching someone like me do this to someone like you is heartbreaking, because I know how easily she will continue to abuse the credit you're giving her and how badly you will both regret it. She is a safety hazard not only for you, but for your children. If they haven't had sex already -- which is probably untrue, I'm afraid -- they have been building towards it for weeks of isolated, star-crossed lovers bullshit. If this guy lives in a homeless shelter, renewed contact with him is a terrible Covid risk. I'm also Pennsylvania yellow, and if you and I live near each other, then you live in an area that is opening due to economic pressure rather than scientific evidence of increased safety. In her fog, your wife is absolutely capable of putting your family at risk on an ongoing basis. She is not thinking clearly at all.

Please reconsider giving her more rope to hang herself. She will strangle you all if you let her.

BraveSirRobin, thank you. I really do appreciate the other point of view. That is one piece of the puzzle that was still missing. I also feel that what I'm doing now is doing nothing to "convince" her and it's definitely not helping me with the emotional roller coaster.

I did just re-read the article in the Healing Library about separation/NC. I think I'm gonna read it like 3 more times for it to sink in.

I think part of this will be me saying I'm not going to join her on the "family" beach vacation in a couple weeks. I was just going to join for the last couple days anyway. While it kills me that I won't see the kids for 8 long days, I think I do actually need the break. Though it could be rather boring with just me and the dog.

I'm gonna discuss this with my IC too. 2 more months of "this" just doesn't sit well with me. And no matter what happens, I will need to build a new relationship with either my WW or somebody else.

I also have been keeping this situation very close to the chest. The only person I've told is my brother and his gf. My bro and I agreed that telling my parents now is probably not a good idea and probably won't be helpful. However, she's told her mother and evidently a couple co-workers that she's befriended and 1 other friend (that I know of). I delay talking to others because if we can fix things in the future I don't want the arm-chair quarterbacks kicking in.

Thoughts on timing? I know some of you will say dump and run and stop dancing. I get that. But really, the affair has been short, we don't hate each other (yet), so I do want to let her sort out her issues while I sort out mine. I also know that if by deadline, that I will have to probably make the call. And whatever improvements I made for myself will be leveraged to with a new relationship with either be my current wife or someone new.

You are in the driver's seat now. If there is contact, the affair still continues. End of story.

Therefore, if you need no contact as one of your deal breakers (and it most certainly should be) you make it clear to her that it is a deal breaker for you and draw a line. I would demand she go NC today, right now, this afternoon. There is no reason she should continue to talk to him.

If she wants to keep talking to him, tell her she is out of the house tomorrow. Be firm with her. Blow up her world.

Get a divorce attorney on the phone immediately. Not that you have to go through with it, but you have to be firm. Get papers drawn up and work to separate from her entirely.

Also, your post doesn't say a lot about the guy she is interacting with. Do you know anything about the status of this guy? Is he married? If he is married or even in a relationship, you should let his wife/girlfriend know about what is going on. These affairs thrive like cockroaches in the darkness and in filthy, dingy places. Shine a light in those areas and the scatter like the aforementioned pests.

It seems counter-intuitive, and believe me, I was there myself. You have to be firm and somewhat of an ass to get your point across to a wayward.

Being frank, at the moment you are letting your wife kind of drive the bus. She shouldn't be do any driving at this point. You should be up front with her about what your needs are and let her choose. She may not choose you, but at least you will know as opposed to being limbo-land, which speaking from experience is a ring of hell I wouldn't wish upon anyone.

Good luck and keep posting Geek, we are all here to help you.

She's using you and stringing you along until she gets her ducks in a row with OM or makes up her mind. If you want to save your marriage, you must be willing to lose it first.

File for divorce now. She must know you are serious or she will drag her feet and keep you in limbo while she sits on the fence. She is gradually loosing respect for you and when that's gone, she will be too. Women are attracted to a strong man, one that stands up for himself.

Draw the line by filing for D. Fresh divorce papers have a way of knocking cake-eaters off the fence. If she falls on your side, the process takes time so you can always withdraw. If she falls on the other side, at least you know where you stand and you follow through with the process.

BTW, don't try to bluff her, it doesn't work. You have to be stone cold serious.

[This message edited by Decimated at 1:59 PM, May 28th (Thursday)]

Dude,

You said you read "No More Mr. Nice Guy". It sounds like you need to read it again.

In order to save a relationship, you have to be willing to lose it, and she has to believe it.

1.) Stop trying to nice her back. It never works and makes you look weak & pathetic. You need to practice the 180 religiously. Here is a a site to google about it: the-180-for-hurt-spouses.html

2.) Have you visited a lawyer yet? You need to start getting your ducks in a row. She needs to be served not threatened. Divorce is a long process and can be halted if she gets her head out of her hind quarters.

3.) I would tell her to go be with him. Why continue this sham. Tell her you care about her and want her to be happy, so go be with him. Then YOU GO NO CONTACT.

4.) Get the book The Married Man's Sex Life Primer by Athol Kay and read it.

5.) Show your family that a man acts with strength & honor. This doormat stuff is humiliating.

'Fog' is a useful term to describe a WS being out of touch with reality, but BSes need to realize the WS stays in the fog by choice. It doesn't lift on its own - it keeps going until the WS decides to lift it.

I know it's very difficult to set a boundary that may end your M, but it is necessary for your own health. R take a lot more than NC, but NC is one of R's prerequisites. If your W won't go NC, you have no hope for R. If she does go NC, you can move on to other requirements for R.

But always remember your boundaries are to protect you. Your W gets to choose to honor or violate them, but you get to know you'll do fine either way.

August, Schmaugust...

Brother, seriously, if you want her back, neither lovey-dovey nor passive actions will work. She will see both as weak.

I'd give her an hour to either choose you or D.

WWs only understand and respond to strong actions.

Waiting till August is basically silently giving her permission to fuck him for 2 more months without repercussions.

F. That.

I wouldn’t be surprised if her AP winds up on the beach vacation.

Hi Geek42, glad you're back and seeking advice.

It's been over a month since your last post. How would you say that month has gone in terms of saving your marriage?

I'm concerned for you. To be honest, it's for many reasons, but a major concern I have for you is that you want, in your heart of hearts, to have a chance to save this marriage, but *everything* you're doing is giving you the opposite result. And until you do something differently, you will continue to little by little chip away at your chances, if that's what you really, really want.

I'm telling you this because I have lived it. Walked this exact walk.

If nothing else, I hope you realize that when people advise you to take "drastic" measures (you say "dump and run" here; not sure I'd be that harsh with the terminology), it's not because they're bitter BSs who hate WSs and want to see all BSs leave their WS. Please don't think that. People are giving you this advice because they know it's your only shot to have a successful outcome, whether that is R or D. Both are acceptable here, and you'll get support with either.

But what you're doing gives you this:

I'm in a yucky holding pattern right now.

Call it a holding pattern if you want. It's usually called "limbo" around here.

It's a continuation of infidelity. Your wife has continued to have a boyfriend for the last month. Your wife has a boyfriend. The major reason she has this boyfriend is because she's allowed to have him with no consequences.

If you want to get out of this "holding pattern," you need to start doing things differently. You literally need to get to a point where you tell this group: "I'm ready to do the 180 and go a different direction; please help me with the first steps." And then you can get the help. And then within a few days your entire life will be different.

If you can't get there -- and many can't -- nothing changes. You continue until August in this same "yucky holding pattern." And then what will you do? Maybe continue on like this indefinitely, with a wife who has a boyfriend.

But next week could be 1000x better if you can start doing things differently.

I'm not wrong about this.

she's still in the fog

I can remember talking like this back when my wife actively had a boyfriend. What is "the fog" to you? Do you think of it as an ailment, or a mental sickness that has afflicted your otherwise healthy wife?

Because it's not that. I'll be honest: I hate the "fog" terminology. All it really means is that the WS has a boyfriend/girlfriend and it affects how they interact with the rest of the world, notably the BS.

and doesn't know what she wants to do. Feels pulled in both directions right now.

The literal only thing that empowers someone to inhabit this space--not knowing what to do, feeling pulled in both directions--is when they have two options. Right now, you're giving her two options.

Think logically. What do you think would happen if, say, tomorrow you printed out the D papers and said to her: "Wife, as sad as it makes me, I've realized that I cannot continue living this way. So, I'm moving on with my life. Here are the D papers. I'm going to fill them out now, and I'll need some info from you as I work through them. You're now free to see AP as much as you want--I won't inquire anymore. My plan is to get these all done and ready to submit to the court within the next 72 hours, and then begin preparing for my life with the kids moving forward. If you can, now would be a good time for you and AP to begin apartment hunting. I can send you some Craigslist links I think look pretty good."

And what if you didn't just *say* all that, but actually started doing it? What do you think would happen? Do you think WW would say "Ok! Thanks for making my choice easier! AP and I are going to go be together now!"

Or do you think something else might happen?

Really do this thought experiment. Step outside your emotions and think logically about what might happen if you went this way.

So, my current plan that I discussed with my IC and MC is to wait. Give some more time for the fog to potentially clear.

I'm sorry, but this is the wrong move. And again, the "fog" is not an ailment that has potential to clear up while you wait it out. It's not acne. It's not a rash. It's a boyfriend. You can't wait this out and save your marriage.

It takes an hour to cut ties with an affair partner. It doesn't take until August. You are setting yourself up for the worst two months of your life, and nothing will change.

Thoughts on timing? I know some of you will say dump and run and stop dancing. I get that. But really, the affair has been short, we don't hate each other (yet), so I do want to let her sort out her issues while I sort out mine.

I actually don't think you get it. What people are saying here is that if you don't start doing something different and taking decisive action, you are completely ruining your chances at getting the result you want. There is even at least one FWS here giving the same advice.

That the affair has been short is meaningless. Some affairs are one-night stands and ruin the BS forever.

She will never "sort out her issues" while she has a boyfriend. She will just continue to have a boyfriend. Which is the issue we're talking about right now.

She can sort out her other issues down the road, alongside you (if you allow that), when the boyfriend is gone. How can it possibly happen before that?

~

My overarching hope is that you keep posting here.

I said this on your last thread, and I'm going to say it again here: you could have everything turn around so quickly if you can find the inner strength to listen to and follow the advice you're getting here.

I cannot guarantee that you can save your marriage. But I can guarantee you there is no chance whatsoever of saving it as long as you continue doing what you're doing.

[This message edited by Okokok at 3:30 PM, May 28th (Thursday)]

I agree with sisoon and others. She is playing you and stringing you along. Cut the string.

[This message edited by fareast at 8:34 PM, June 27th (Saturday)]

I have to tell you, I was more hopeful that you had made progress one way or another from your posts a month ago and weren’t still in such limbo.

I also have to say, that if my wife came home told me and for 6 weeks continued to say she didnt love me but Instead said she had fallen in love with a guy in a homeless shelter my only words to her would be ”Good luck with that, you’ll be hearing from my Lawyer with divorce papers.”

Actually I would add to that, “i love you and would work to rebuild our marriage but not until you get your head out of your butt and not until your only emotions for the other guy is that he’s a piece of shit that helped you destroy your marriage and family.... until you’re feeling that there is no reason to talk further.”

Geek, you are worth more than how you are being treated.

Tell me what do you think is going to happen in August. Think you’re going to be ready to get on with your life with her if at the very best she come comes to you and says “well after about 3 months of enjoying sexual pleasure from my boyfriend i decided I didn’t like living in the homeless shelter anymore so I guess I’ll come back to you ... no promises I won’t meet someone else that I think is better than you down the road, but for now, I’m here ain’t I?”

Seriously, the only way rebuilding and reconciliation works if you have a partner who is not only devastated for what she ihas done To her life but even more distraught over how she has totally hurt the man she loves and is begging for a chance to show him how much she does love him FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE.

And the way you and the MC are handling this, you will never get that. The best you will get unfortunately using your current approach is a life with a woman who thinks she missed out because she didn’t want to have a lower quality of life or wanted to just stay for the kids or didn’t want to be seen as a cheater. Not because she loves you.

So it’s time to find that self respect you’ve desparately been looking for. And it’s time to tell her you won’t stand for cheating, won’t stay married to a woman who loves another more than you and pines away for another man.

If it were me, I’d call 3 lawyers tomorrow and (virtually) meet with one next week. Get him or her to draw up papers and let your wife know, as long as you are living together but she is still in love with the OM you see no more need to keep talking, that you will NOT be attending MC anymore and that you will be working to legally end the marriage her choices has already destroyed.

In my life and marriage there would not be one day that ongoing cheating Is permitted let alone one week or one month. Neither my wife or I would stand for it. It would either have to end, completely, or the BS would say, I’m moving on, hope you find what you are looking for.

So tell her just that. I’m moving on, I hope you find what you are looking for.

And then think a bit about what you would need to see in order to start working on rebuilding. Just so you are prepared for the manipulative words she will use.

If she tries, Tell her you are not even willing you sit and talk about your marriage until she has delivered:

- a complete timeline of her affair. Every interaction. Every word. Every touch.

- a letter of apology and a description of what it would mean to her to have you stay and work to rebuild

- a letter describing how she imagines the pain she has caused you must have felt when you found out she was cheating.

- a 10 point or more plan that she has researched to rebuild the relationship

- a NC letter to the AP that you review before she sends. Matter of fact with NO last goodbyes.

- continued IC for both of you. Absolutely no MC til she figures out how she felt falling for another man would repair her marriage and how she will prevent it again

- full transparency on all her devices, forever. You can provide the same to her

That’s just a start to reconciliation. Do you think she’s a candidate to be able to do that? I don’t. You haven’t said one thing that makes me believe she is. So start down the path to move on until she becomes someone who can do those things. And if she ever becomes that person, stay on the path to detach until she has ACTUALLY DONE THOSE THINGS COMPLETELY.

that’s what you as a BH need in order to find happiness with her in marriage again. There is truly no other way. Staying in limbo and then letting her just ease back into your life, rug sweeping whatever happened is not a formula for happiness. It’s only a formula to her next affair.

She has to chainge who she is, but you have to change who you are, in terms of what you will stand for.

So tell her. Tell her you will not stay in a marriage where your wife dates other men, in person or virtually. Tell her she’s free to find her happiness with this other man if that is what her heart wants. But that you will not stay in this situation one more minute.

Then file and have her served.

She’ll either break down and realize what she is losing and start to make the changes she needs to, or she will move on. Either way you’ll be out of limbo. Either way you’ll be in a better place than you are now.

Please give it a try. This is no way to be treated in a marriage. Stop standing for it.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 3:43 PM, May 28th (Thursday)]

Who knows if she is actually "playing you", but she is holding all the cards- but only because you're letting her.

Just tell her. The OM is all hers. She has no decision to make. You're out, the marriage is over. You will not be her plan B or second place kewpie doll prize.

Sisoon is right, she is in a "fog" only because she wants to be. So stop letting her dictate the situation.

Alright. I think I get it (logically). My own issues of causing conflict is getting in my way. You are all right. She's not going to change unless forced to. I'm also scared. I think that's really it. I'm just scared. Scared to be alone. Scared of something that has already changed my life and I'll be making even more of a change. That has always been my underlying issue: afraid of change and rocking the boat.

Today was a little different. I barely said 2 words to her today. Acknowledged her presence but really just talked to the kids and dog mostly. Tonight was the first night I actually just left. Told WW I was going out for dinner (takeout in my car, thanks covid) and I'd be back later. I did do the food thing at my favorite place, then went to visit my brother and his gf for a few hours. We talked a little about my marriage, but mostly we didn't talk about my situation. It was kinda nice just getting out and talking to somebody else and not have to think about my household.

Of course when I get home, the 4yo is in bed and the teen tells me he had a meltdown because I wasn't home at bedtime. Soooo, I feel guilty because of that. He's my crazy monkey-butt. And I can see this scenario playing out again as WW and I separate not just in-house, but when she leaves the house. He's just not going to understand.

I think that is one of the other reasons I'm hesitating to pull the legal separation/divorce trigger. It's him. I really would do anything for him. I'm not afraid of a custody fight, I think WW and I could work that out peacefully.

But. I did make a step. I just emailed my lawyer to schedule a time next week to start this process. I don't really want to wait until August.

God I hate this...

I'm reading your pain, and I totally feel it and honestly get it. Still, this is my favorite post of yours yet. I can feel your strength rising.

It's ok to be scared, and it makes sense that you are. I was, too.

What you did today was a little of the 180, at least. If you really only said two words to her, it was a LOT of the 180. What was she like when you got home? Did either of you say anything?

I'm glad you left and got dinner. There is strength and freedom in that. And it gives you space to literally just process and think.

~

I'm a dad, too. Couple of very little ones, just like yours.

I really would do anything for him.

If that's *really* the case, then consider this: the greatest gift you can ever give him is the gift of your happiest, healthiest, strongest self.

That's not a lie or a bit of word trickery I'm feeding you. It is a basic reality of human life. You will never, in your whole life, have an opportunity to give him something greater.

Sad, abused Dad in a hopeless, awful situation is no gift.

Staying together "for the kids" so that everyone can sit in the same tense living room on Tuesday nights is no gift.

Continuing a situation where Mom has a boyfriend, or never dealing appropriately with what Mom did, is no gift.

Someday that crazy monkey-butt will be a grown man. He will take his lead from you.

[This message edited by Okokok at 10:18 PM, May 28th (Thursday)]

You're afraid of something that's already happened, your WW is openly dating her boyfriend and refuses to stop, she's NOT remorseful and therefore not R material at this point by a very long shot, you're simply trying to "nice her back" which NEVER works and playing the "Pick me dance", right now your M is a sham and you're doing absolutely NOTHING to change that dynamic, by doing nothing and hiding her A, you simply enable it further.

Don't even wait for your appointment with your attorney, simply tell her TODAY that you're done, that you're NOT anybody's plan B and that because of her huge betrayal you're starting the D process and have made an appointment with an attorney, also EXPOSE her with ALL family and close friends without warning, don't forget to get tested for STDs just in case.

D takes a long time and can be stopped before it's final if she comes around, ends her A, commits to NC FOREVER, full on demand access to her phone and all electronic devices and passwords FOREVER, gets tested for STDs, apologizes to the entire family for her huge betrayal, signs a postnup in your favor in case she cheats again in the future (no alimony/she doesnt touch your retirement), and commits to IC to find out her whys (among other things), if D papers and full exposure don't shock her back to reality, then nothing will, if so just let D run its course and get out of infidelity.

Keep posting frequently, this is a crucial moment and the collective wisdom of SI could help you through this difficult situation, we've literally seen it play out THOUSANDS of times here and other forums.