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I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to want to destroy someone who wasn't directly responsible to you, but responsible to be decent to you nonetheless, and treat the person who DIRECTLY screwed you over with kid gloves.

Like I said, fine, it makes no sense to you. It makes perfect sense to me for the many reasons I already gave, and I am not treating my wife with "kid gloves" just because you think anything short of wanting to destroy her like I wouldn't mind seeing the OM destroyed is "kid gloves" - and I understand exactly what you are saying, because you are saying it over and over without bothering to digest anything that has been said otherwise.

If you feel like nobody else in the world owes you anything because they never swore they wouldn't do XYZ that's great. I don't operate that way. You enter my life it becomes personal. You make it personal without the bulwark of a 20 year relationship then there's no point to me trying to be anything but hostile. It's very simple, and has nothing to do with "kid gloves" - which is damn down right insulting.

eta:

Editing out some fuckings since they're not necessary.

What is it you think the phrase kid gloves means? Because either you are intentionally being antagonistic with it or do not understand what you're saying.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 9:07 PM, May 23rd (Thursday)]

I am not a fan of being screwed directly or indirectly.

You enter my life it becomes personal.

I hear what stillgoing is saying. I recently had a situation where a couple involved me in their dispute, when they could have easily left me out of it ( that would have been my preference) but they insisted on involving me. I was holding a laundry basket for god's sake....and they were blocking me from entering the door to my home. I called 911 and they are so pissed off at me. I am to blame for the result. It never occurred to them that their dispute with another person, that became violent should have been dealt with at the time it occurred...by THEMSELVES. They all had working cell phones...and not one of them did the "right thing" by my estimation.

I have a boundary, they crossed it. I did "the right thing" by my estimation.

Well here was my response...

"

If you don't want me to have any decision making ability in your life then you need to let me go on my way. If you stop me and involve me..in any way shape or form, you are also giving me the right to make decisions about what is occurring. I made a decision and If you don't like the decision I made...feel free not to include me in the future."

I have adopted this philosophy in all things that I do. Regardless of how anyone feels about the way that I process my decisions...they are mine. I own them. I own the consequences, both good and bad.

If you don't want me involved...then leave me out.

I think it's quite simple.

I also think it is very much in line with the point being made. I get to choose how I deal with the things that come my way. I must also own it...but I get to choose.

Don't screw my spouse. I get a little cranky and you might not like my reaction.

This is how I operate.

Maybe I should come with a warning sign.

Again, most of the OW's I have dealt with (three relationships worth of them), I don't hate. I pity them, or feel simply nothing. The girl I saw having sex with my ex-fiancé? I could walk down the street right next to her and not bat an eyelash. Most of the women my daughter's dad screwed around with? I don't care. The women who my current fiancé talked to? They had no idea he was even in a relationship. I don't blame any of them.

Now, my daughter's dad did cheat on me with an ex of his. When I found out about it, of course I insisted that he end things. I was eight months pregnant (or so) at the time. She flipped out and said that I was being a "selfish b*tch" when he ended things with her, and when she found out I was pregnant, she REALLY flew off the handle. She called me and told me I was having HER baby (I guess when he and her were together- years before I ever met him- she had wanted a baby but had a hard time getting pregnant) and even went as far as to threaten to kill me and my child. I had to go and get a restraining order because she stalked my house while he wasn't home. When he and I broke up, I put our child not being around her as a provision in our parenting plan (we still have the restraining order, but just in case). If he ever brings that woman within 500 feet of my daughter or her home, HE will be held in contempt for violating our parenting plan and has the potential to lost visitation rights altogether.

Who, WHAT would threaten a baby? Something unhuman, that's what. That...thing...he cheated with is not a human being. I don't have to see her, be around her, or think about her, so I don't. She doesn't control or consume my life in the least. But I don't lie, when I found out that the woman who threatened not only me but my CHILD had been kicked out of her house ne was sleeping in her car over Christmas a few years ago, I let out a very hardy laugh.

Does that make me a terrible person? I don't think so. You can, I don't care.

I do not like my FWW AP at all.

The OM is well aware that I do not like him. He also knows I watch "Dexter" and pay very close attention to the details.

I hope he rots in Hell.

I think there are some obvious cases where the AP is a stalking sociopathic freak, but most don't fall there. Given the prevalence of TT, I would guess that many "evil AP" stories are a case of selective truth.

Another thing- your spouse is more likely to be remorseful when you can have their ass handed to them. The BS rarely has that leverage over the AP.

But yeah, I get where StillGoing is coming from. If I could push a button and torture the AP's, it would be hard to resist. Wouldn't go out of my way for it though.

I have had feelings of intense anger as of late for the AP. but I've comeback to the greater realization that he was just as willing to sell out his wife and children as he was me in order to conduct the affair, and I have to believe that they meant slightly more to him than I did. Also, he began screwing my wife shortly before I even met him, so he was never a friend to begin with. What loyalty can you expect from a stranger? Bottom line is that my WS was the person who betrayed me in the end, and she is the one that I must hold accountable.

Who has NOT had feelings of anger toward the AP?

I knew OM. Not as a friend but as a person who was a friend of WW. I treated him with respect. He was in our home. I cooked bbq for him. I bought him dinner. I treated him as I would any friend of my WW.

Did it concern me that my WW had a male friend. Not so much because I TRUSTED my WW.

OM was also a BH in his 1st marriage. He knew the pain of being betrayed. And yet. He knowingly did what he did.

I had rage for a long time. If I could have figured out a way to murder OM and get away with it he would be dead now. But fortunately for OM I am not a very smart person.

I believe anger for the AP is justified. Especially if they know our WS is married. And even more especially if they know us and know what they are doing.

No one *just falls in* to a LTA. They dont *just happen*. Affairs are deliberate actions made knowing full well the pain it will cause to the betrayed as well as all the possible consequences.

So a person who deliberately CHOOSES to be a part of something that hurts another. Destroys their life. Risks their M. Risks their childrens well being. Risks their finances. A person that chooses this deserves every ounce of anger that comes at them.

Just my opinion of course.

What is it you think the phrase kid gloves means?

Being so blinded by "love" that you don't forget to make sure there is still a problem, while wanting to destroy someone else. And simply hating the OP isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about those that seek to destroy the OP and want to put the blame, or more of the blame on them.

Because either you are intentionally being antagonistic

No, I'm not. Don't even.

Vulcanized wrote:

I hated & blamed OW way more than XH for far too long. As I pulled my head out of my ass, I realized more and more A is XH's fault.

^^ THIS is what I'm saying. Vulcan wrote it better.

Look, it's not an either/or. If you want to think it is then fine, but you're wrong. I'm not going to bother explaining it a different way, but no, there are no kid gloves here.

eta:

And yes, I believe you are being intentionally antagonistic by cleaving to the broad categories you are ramming people into without even pausing to think about any of the responses. I refuse to believe you are a stupid man, and given your definition by your own hand I cannot see how it is anything other than antagonistic to call people who would happily clobber the OM if given a consequence free opportunity as "blinded" because they wouldn't visit that on their spouse.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 11:27 AM, May 24th (Friday)]

Look, it's not an either/or. If you want to think it is then fine, but you're wrong. I'm not going to bother explaining it a different way, but no, there are no kid gloves here.

Then what I'm talking about doesn't apply to your situation.

Yet you equated them together in several posts:

I read stories where people want to do something like get the AP fired from their job. And I'm right there with them. I say go for it.

But then what would be a fitting response to your cheating spouse?

I said, and I will add a bit here, if you are full of hate and vindictiveness to an AP, what would be a FITTING response to the person that directly betrayed you?

Anger and hatred are completely appropriate towards an OW/OM, unless you aren't going to hold your spouse to the same standards.

Just want to know, if you want to beat the s**t out of the OW/OM, or completely destroy their lives, then what does your spouse get?

Eventually you altered what you were saying slightly, but I fail to see how those statements do not apply to anyone in R the way you presented them.

Things like:

But if I were to be recovering with a wife/partner, I wouldn't waste any time trying to get the OM fired, or beat the crap out of him. He holds his part of responsibility in what he and my x-wife did to me, but no more than x-wife herself. If I were to have moved on with her, then I simply would pay the OM no mind.

Seem to assume that there is some kind of requirement to forgive everybody or nobody. Very, very few guys here advocate beating the crap out of the OM despite daydreaming about it, for many reasons. Eventually we stop caring about them. Just because responsibility is equal does not mean it merits the same response. For you, sure, fine. You have been saying this for several pages now, however, and backing it up to "actively blaming the OP more than the WS" and "actively seeking to destroy the OP" was not the commentary I took issue with.

If you spent a couple of pages not properly articulating what you were trying to say then I can get that. I do that shit all the time. Sometimes I wander off and rant about ewoks and shit. Even so, the only thing I would agree with is people portraying their WS as a victim rather than a participant. Almost nobody here has that perspective though, and on the very rare occasions that it surfaces, it gets deconstructed by everyone.

If I am being overly hostile then I apologize. I did not feel what you were originally saying was in line with your latest posts.

The difference is my husband has spent the last for years paying for and righting what he did -- she could careless the pain she caused me--that's probably why it is really hard for me to let go of my feelings of blame/hate towards her. A total stranger that tries to do everything in their power to assist in wrecking a life/marriage and never looks back--yeah pisses me off!

OK, so the OW got off way too easy. Your husband is paying 100% of the price despite being only 50% responsible.

The equal hate/blame is entirely justified. It's not fair.

Now what?

[This message edited by Sal1995 at 6:09 PM, May 24th (Friday)]

the only thing I would agree with is people portraying their WS as a victim rather than a participant. Almost nobody here has that perspective though, and on the very rare occasions that it surfaces, it gets deconstructed by everyone.

I agree with this, SG, and said the same thing a couple of pages back.

In fact, I remember there was a "BS" and "WS" awhile back. It was a woman who thought she had an affair because on a business trip she went back to a colleague's room to continue chatting and she was sexually assaulted. She may have even been drugged, if I recall correctly. Whilst she may have been naive and foolish, she certainly didn't have an affair, she was assaulted. The BS did feel she was a victim, for the most part, but was kind of blaming her for going back to the room.

Point is, I see very few here maintaining that their WS was a total victim of the AP.

I totally understand making the WS to own up to what they did....they took the vows....they broke the vows. I get this and I guarantee my WH has definitely felt my wrath on numerous occasions.

However, the OW had no intention of being with my WH long term.....she had no desire to live a life with him....she had 2 other MM that were much closer to her own age and one of them she was planning on spending her life with.......although eventually he refused to divorce his wife.....imagine that

All my WH was to her was money to get her to places...money to pay for hotels.....money.....money .....money. Of course she repaid the money with fringe benefits......lots of fringe benefits.

Do I hate her. You bet I do!!! She participated in the devastation our life for her own selfish needs.

They say there is no fool like an old fool.......I can testify to that personally.

I am probably in the minority here, but I don't blame the AP as much as I blame my WH#2. The OW did not know me. She was an old GF of WH#2 from prior to us meeting and marrying. She called him at work one day and they met for lunch. He had met other women for lunch before and I never had a problem as we always were honest about it. I was never a jealous person and was confident that my WH#2 was always truthful and loved me. I never knew anything about her until DDay when she called me and told me about their LTA. He lead her on for two years with ILU's, an engagement ring, and telling her he was D me. When she finally figured out he was lying to us both is when she outed him to me. Then he lead her on some more and they took it underground for almost another year until she outed him again because he wouldn't leave me for her. I look at her as a middle aged single woman who thought she had finally found someone that loved her. She has been divorced several times already (imagine that). I want nothing to do with her, but I don't hate her. I actually pity her more than anything else. She is a broken person and this affair made her more broken than she already was. She is still trying to text WH#2. She is desperate and he now sees that for himself and what he brought into our marriage.

As far as blame. I blame him 100% and always will. He was my husband. He was supposed to love me unconditionally. He said wedding vows to me. He broke all of our vows. He destroyed the deep love I had for him. He turned away from me when I needed him the most (health issues). He took the love he was supposed to show me and gave it to her without a second thought. He continued to lie and cheat even after he saw how it distroyed me, my career, my home, our family, my health. He knew the type person she was (sleazebag) but risks everything anyway for basically nothing but a piece of ass and his ego kibbles. So yeah...I blame him. He is the one that hurt me, not her. She is insignificant in the grand scheme of things in my mind.