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hurtpenguin, are you getting help dealing with her drinking problem? If not, you might want to contact AlAnon (http://www.al-anon.alateen.org).

I can tell you from experience that trying to help a loved one with an abuse problem on your own is usually a losing proposition.

See my tagline? I truly believe that quote. I think that in nearly all cases our misery is maintained by our own choices. Note I say maintained but not caused… If you are unhappy because you are fat, unfit, poor, drive a crappy car or whatever you can choose to make changes and then implement them. One option is simply accepting your situation, but then you more-or-less forfeit the right to be miserable.

Like if you had a cat-allergy and came here to let us know about it. We would probably tell you the single best solution would be to find a new home for Tabby. If you refused to do that and instead took allergy medication that made you drowsy then complaining about the drowsiness and the ongoing need to take the medicine wouldn’t really cut the cake with us…

Your expectations that she reports when she leaves the house, leaves the office, leaves the store… honestly… not realistic. She didn’t cheat because she could – she cheated because she wanted to (this is a KEY issue – better explained below). Therefore, if she wants to cheat she can, relatively irrespective of how and when she reports in. “Hi honey, I’m at the office. You can even confirm that by looking at my phone’s GPS tracking” but what she omits is that she’s in conference room 6b (that small one nobody uses because it’s so isolated) with OM talking about how miserable they are.

The truth that she can cheat if she wants to and – due to their proximity – can hide it from you will seriously undermine YOUR ability to heal and reconcile.

Honestly then even telling OMW won’t prevent them from meeting if they want that. But what it does is:

(a) In 9/10 cases the OM ends the affair and focuses on his marriage.

(b) Instead of you only monitoring WW you have OMW monitoring OM. Wife needs to go to a 2-day conference next week and OM won’t be there? Who can confirm better than the OMW.

(c) Changes the affair from fantasy to reality. Suddenly, the brave white knight smells of fart in his shining armor…

Therefore, you want NC (as in not working together). Combine exposure and NC and you have a combination that (a) makes hiding the affair harder (b) destroys the fantasy and (c) gives you better peace of mind.

But I get your reluctance. And you do have more info than we do. Only when you make your decision based on the monetarily benefits then also account for the emotional costs. This situation you are in right now – ongoing contact, hard to get assurance… - is the cost of your decision. Remember the couple I told you about? The couple that despite infidelity being over didn’t start healing until the OW left the job?

Honestly – I wouldn’t even expect any real reconciliation for now. I would settle for inactive infidelity… I truly think that’s the best you can expect and that might even be OK for a limited time. Inactive infidelity is where you simply accept she probably isn’t sleeping with OM, might even have minimal contact and your home-life is bearable…

Only don’t just hang around doing nothing.

Use the time to clarify your financial and legal position. Be very open and honest with your wife: The affair has you feeling insecure and trapped. If she is intent on being fair and working on the relationship she will be open to clearing this issue. You two plan on marrying: What are the laws in your state? Will all property become marital property? Would a simple legal contract be enough to ensure your financial security? A fund in your name? Think out of the box. Use the time NOW to fix your financial insecurity. Use the time now to plan how you want to progress once the kids are a bit older.

Many of us here on SI seriously doubt how an active alcoholic can commit to reconciliation. For the active alcoholic then the next fix is the key issue. We have seen cases here where the alcoholic will have an affair simply to divert the “problems” from the alcohol to the marriage. Take her drinking seriously. How about both of you agreeing to a 90 day sobriety test?

Heck… That could be an interesting experiment. If she can stop for 90 days it might be a good indicator she has a drinking-pattern problem rather than alcoholism. Even more then if she can’t commit to 90 days sobriety to save her marriage then how can you expect her to commit to complete emotional NC with OM? Both are in a sense her “fix”.

Other than that I totally second the idea of Al Anon.

The major issue of the affair being her DECISSION. If your WW gets away with any excuse for her decision to cheat there isn’t any way you can expect her to remain faithful. There can be millions of “reasons” she cheated. Bad communications, her drinking… whatever. But at the end of the day there was a point where she KNEW she was crossing a line. She could have stopped the moment he took her hand, after the first kiss… Nothing MADE her do it. She DECIDED to do it. To me this is so important. Your wife has to totally accept her responsibility. At MC, she can say “I didn’t think you cared so I cheated” but she also must acknowledge that cheating was a bad decision and that even IF you have bad communications then the fact she responded by cheating… clearly shows she has bad communications.

Hey everyone, just wanted to give a quick update.

I decided to try and take a break from reading on SI and researching the infidelity topic in general (on advice from my IC in order to break my obsessive mindset) but it is hard. I have spent considerably LESS time, but haven't been able to let go for 1 full day as of yet. I even finished the book Not "Just Friends" in like record time. For me, being a person who previously cared little in the way of emotional understanding, putting names to the feelings I am experiencing, and knowing that they are not unique to me is very comforting and relieves my anxiety. (Although I can agree that I have a tendency to over-analyze and obsess until I feel I have complete knowledge)

On Sat we attended a birthday party for my DD friend. Right before we left we were having what I thought was a productive conversation, but sadly that turned quickly into her being defensive when I used the phrased "you aren't getting it" she screamed at me and left the room. We proceeded to the party and in the car on the way I had a full blown panic attack. The anxiety of having to be around mutual friends, her and the stress of having to "keep it together" for 2 hours was extremely overwhelming. I had all the classic signs; rapid breathing, nausea, rapid heart rate, feelings of terror, racing thoughts, inability to breathe and shaking. It was one of the most horrible experiences, I thought I was going to die.

I managed to calm down by the time we reached the party and I thought I had everything under control, until I walked over to say something to her and saw she had her work phone out and was checking emails. I was instantly triggered and went to sit out in the parking lot in the car for the remaining of the party. After being there for about 10 minutes I texted her I needed to leave RIGHT NOW. She ignored my text (because her phone was in her purse) and when being there became unbearable I texted her that I was left the keys in the car and I was leaving. I just started walking, no real direction, no real destination just walked. I guess she texted me back a few times and finally when she called (about 35 minutes later) she begged to come pick me up. I really had no idea where I was but managed to give her some cross streets after walking another block.

The next day was my DD birthday party so there were many distractions that made it an emotionally uneventful day (although I expressed to her that I was feeling angry and resentful that I couldn't full enjoy the festivities because of my continued emotional turmoil).

At our MC session we went over these things and I tried to explain to her I was really hurt she didn't A. take me home when I was having a panic attack before the party B. leave when I told her I NEEDED TO LEAVE. Granted, she didn't want to leave early because that day happened to be my DD birthday so the mother of the child's party had bought my DD a cake as well. I asked her "If I had been stabbed or hit by a car would you have waited 35 minutes to take me somewhere to get help?" She of course said no. "Then why do you think my emotional state was any less severe?"

This leads me to my main revelation. She doesn't get it. I even went back to the first chapter of How to Help your Spouse Heal From Your Affair, "Qualities of Successful Rebuilders: "Getting it"."

-"Getting it" means that the straying spouses understands the wrongness of their behavious and depth of the pain they have caused their spouses.

After going over the last few conversations we have had (and the fact she stormed out of the MC session early when the conversation started to get tough) I think she understands the wrongness of her behavior, but I see her struggling with the depth of MY pain and getting past her own self-consumption based on her own pain and fears. Because of her -continued- selfishness she can't see how hurt I am, and thus can't understand what she needs to do to begin to help heal me and our relationship.

The last sentence of the chapter really resonated with me:

"All other steps listed in this book are dependent on this attitude - one of "getting it". Otherwise, whatever actions straying spouses take will come across as self-serving, manipulative, and meaningless."

This is exactly how I feel, and have to come to terms with the fact that the reason she keeps making so many mistakes is that she doesn't "get it". Until she does, I cannot move forward.

I have decided to review and implement "The 180" and free myself of the anxiety of trying to help her "get it". I do recognize that she is TRYING, but she has to get there on her own. No amount of articles I send or print her our will help. I can't force or will her to "get it". She just has to "get it". Hopefully, if she accomplishes that, her behavior will become more in line with that of a "successful rebuilder".

I just want this week to be a little better than the last one. That is the goal right?

That's one of the best books out there. Glad you read it.

The 180 is great. The devil is in the small details also.

Many people cherry pick the 180 and then, surprise, it didn't help.

The next book you need to read, as all men should, is MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER. It's basically about why women grow apart from their men. It also has a plan to follow and from what I have seen from the responses it is not just my opinion that it is a must read.

Are you comfortable having to depend on your wife as much as you have in the past six years?

hurtpenguin

I agree that WW does not get it. On balance it is possible that that WW will get it. DDay was very recent. From reading and posting in the Wayward forum I have formed an opinion that detoxing from the A mindset is a process that can take weeks. Of course the self selecting subset of WS that actually seek help on SI may not be typical of the whole population.

Having just quickly reread all your posts, it seems that you have not informed the OBS. You really must take this step. It is the single best step that kills the A permanently. The workplace nature of the A makes this even more important. It is the moral action. OBS's M and health are at risk and she has no idea.

The 180 will help you to think more clearly: it will project a calm confident independent image to WW. The 180 may have a beneficial effect on WW as you detach from her. On balance I do recommend the 180 in your situation. It does not seem as if WW has had many consequences for the A.

Stay Strong.

So sorry you are struggling.

What is the latest status of her getting a new job or him leaving the company? Just the fact that you were triggered by her being on her work email says to me that this is still an important step.

In my last post to you I outlined 5 things (among others) that would move her toward being a safe partner:

1) working hard on interactions in the work place. OM will not be the last to hit on her the next 30 yrs. She has to know how to handle it. She has proven she doesn't.

2) no more alcohol and actively working it as an addiction

3) timeline to get a new job

4) financial stability for you. If you are not going to be married for a while part of your joint money needs to be in YOUR NAME ONLY. She should move a lump sum from her bank account to a new one for you. And put money in it weekly. If you were married you wouldn't need this as much.

5) have her write a plan on how she will become a safe partner for you. Discuss it, make changes, and sign it.

If she has given open access to all technology, does she give it to you whenever you ask? E.g. Could you have asked to see her email right there at the party? You should be asking to review what's she's doing on her phone and computer at random times so she knows you're serious.

Good luck. I'm thinking about you both. I'm glad you were able to enjoy DDs party.

So basically you are telling us that running along carrying weights and dragging a piano is hard – just like we said it would be.

Go back to page one and read all the posts. Reconsider all the advice you though was bad. Some of it might be bad, but a lot of it is based on reality.

You are going nuts because your body is in "fight of flight" mode. You're in a panic.

What you need to do is to simply take control of your life. The 180 is a great, great idea. Seeking out legal advice so that you COMPLETELY understand the scope of your problem is another.

I can't recall, have you performed exposure?

Put your resume together and try to kick-start your career. Tell her that if she doesn't get a new job before you, that she'll need to leave her job when you start.

Hey there, HP.

From my own experience researching infidelity, there seems to be very little consensus on how it happens, why it happens or what types of infidelity exist. Studies focus on various aspect and miss others, draw unwarranted conclusions and make a great many false generalizations. It's an exercise in futility. The only whys and hows and causes you need to understand and the ones that pertain to your fiancé.

Like you, I was glued to SI whenever I had free-time. I read like crazy here, posted several times a day, often started multiple threads a day. It's a safe place. I quickly felt very welcomes and at home here. Nearly two years later, I'm still here, every day, though I don't post as much and rarely start threads. There's tremendous wisdom here and a wide, wide variety of experiences.

...putting names to the feelings I am experiencing, and knowing that they are not unique to me is very comforting and relieves my anxiety.

Yep! See my username? Brother, we all know the feeling. Infidelity is crazy-making shit! You're experiencing a trauma. It's real, it's deep, it's powerful. You're certainly not alone. Look at your member number.

Your life isn't going to be normal, or anything close to it, for... well, the foreseeable future. I still don't know how I managed to function like a relatively normal human being during those first few months (and I'm not so sure that I did, to be honest). It was a struggle to keep it together in social situations. After a while, I started to skip some of those special occasions. I didn't withdraw from the world, but I did realize that putting myself in awkward or uncomfortable situations just wasn't a very good idea. It gets better with time.

If you ask me, it's way too early for MC. Your fiancé needs to be in IC. You might want to go for yourself. I refused to go to MC. Marriage don't cheat. Marriages don't have affairs. Fixing the marriage doesn't fix the cheater. You might get lucky and find a good MC, but be aware that there plenty of stories here on SI about MCs doing more harm than good.

This leads me to my main revelation. She doesn't get it.

It takes some WS a long time to "get it." She will never "get it," however, unless she listens to you explain it. She has to be open to that experience, willing to truly listen, sympathize, empathize... feel that remorse. I think it took my FWW about 18 months before she really "got it" and I started to feel her remorse. It's up to you to decide how patient you're willing to be, how effectively you can communicate how you're feeling to her. The rest is up to her, and beyond your control. It's entirely possible that she may never "get it," which is why so many members here are encouraging you to prepare for that possibility.

Remember this, though. However remorseful she becomes, however far she goes to help you to heal, it's only help. You're going to have to heal yourself. It's sucks. It's not fair, or even close to it. But it's the simple truth. Healing is a choice you have to make for you.

She's going to make mistakes. You're going to make mistakes. Surviving infidelity and trying to rebuild your life without your WS or attempting to reconcile a relationship devastated by infidelity... either way, it's a steep learning curve and hard. Just remember to be gentle and kind with yourself. This shit is hard, brother. HARD.

I think I read "Understanding the 180" once or twice a week for the first few months. I kept a printed copy on my night stand. It's a good idea to implement it, particularly when she still works with the OM.

Also, Google "No More Mr. Nice Guy."

I just want this week to be a little better than the last one. That is the goal right?

It does get better with time, but you're at the start of this shit storm and it's going to last for quite a long time. Two to five years, hurtpenguin, is the average time it takes to recover, heal, and (possibly) reconcile. And the odds are stacked against you (not you personally, btw).

The most important thing you need to focus on is your own recovery and health. Eat, sleep, drink lots of water, exercise, etc, etc. Focus on you and putting yourself back together.

Hi Penguin

How's it going?

Saw your post on the other thread saying she is making more of an effort now.

Has she started to work on her alcohol issue?

Is she NC? Has she found a new job yet?

What about efforts to become a safe spouse, including insuring you have financial safety?

These are important items to work through before even thinking about R or having a wedding.

Hey again everyone. I have been reading everyone's responses but am spending more time away from the JFO section.

Bigger-

Yes you were correct about that giant piano. And I did take the time to reread all the posts from everyone in Gia thread. I was able to take away some stuff now that I wasn't able to a few weeks ago. It has helped.

Alchemy-

Her drinking problem is at the forefront of her IC ( who also handles substance abuse). We looked into he AA meetings, but after consulting with our MC and her with her IC we are workin under the assumption that she isn't alcohol dependent but rather uses alcohol as a coping mechanism. She is actively participating in IC to build healthier and new coping skills.

Stevens-

Thanks for checking in. Things are actually going quite well. As I mentioned in another post, something seemed to click with her and she suddenly seems to REALLY get it. She is doing ALl the hinge I have been looking for her to do with 100% enthusiasm.

She has cancelled a trip she was supposed to take with our children, because I am not yet comfortable with her traveling without me. She is actively looking for another job. While this will be a blow to is financially, I have told her 100% NC is non-negotiable. She has accepted this and is committed to making that happen. She has even talked about possible relocation to take another job out of state. She has been MUCH better at apologizing and hearing her take responsibility through those apologies has helped me immensely. She has taken to reading the books I have suggested and our discussions are no longer just me telling her how I read this and that. She is also talking about how she is internalizing what she has read as well and how she is truly understanding of what she has done and put me through. I think this really hit home after my 2 full blown panic attacks his last week ( of which I have sought help and now have anti-anxiety meds to help me with really tough moments). When she saw my prescription she just hugged me, cried and apologized for everything she has done that has resulted in me having to be medicated to cope ( medication is something I almost NEVER use.. not even aspirin or cold medicine...I hate meds)

We have talked about what she is prepared to do to become a safe partner and build stronger and safer boundaries at work. She is also working with her Ic to determine why she wasn't able to do these hinges in the past and find he "whys".

I'm actually writing his right now from a hotel room since she organized a night out for us including a wine tasting with friends and hotel stay with no kids. She has been writing me loving notes EVERY morning ( as I am at my worst very morning before she leaves for work), has been accountable for all her time and is forthcoming with all information of any of the slightest contact with AP when she comes home from work. I have been given full access to all her social media, phones and email and she produces at anytime without hesitation. She allowed me to retrieve all her sweltered texts and has been fully accountable for all he shit I found in there.

She has also dropped her defensiveness when we talk about the A or the AP and no longer objects to my decision to contact the OBS. When I'm talking she really is listening, taking notes and trying hard to hear what I'm saying.

I really see a difference this last week than I have previously. I really think she "gets it" now. I just hope she can be resolute for as long as it takes, something I've told her I'm worried she won't be able to do. I am taking my own personal healing slowly, as I do not want to end up resentful for ANYHING, and as long as she continues to support me, be non-defensive, and act selflessly in everything she does I can see this moving forward.

As far as the wedding, we have decided to push forwards TOWARDS it for a few reasons.

We are hoping the planning of it will help me heal and for us to remember why we are together. The other is to help secure me financially. If we still marry, and it doesn't work out, when we divorce I will be assured more financial protections than I currently have. I will be able to claim assets that are currently in her name alone. She is pushing for this more than I am at the moment, but it makes sense to me. Obviously I still love her more than I can explain, and as long as she can work towards being a safe partner I am ok with this direction.

I hope we can have a great weekend ( I will credit our MC with pushing us both to get some away time together) and not just get stuck in the negative of the A. Wishe me luck everyone.

I'm feeling really hopeful and I really appreciate the support here.

I'm glad that you guys are in a good place.

May I suggest considering a prenup with a fidelity clause? This will protect both of you. In hindsight I feel like every engaged couple should get one, but definitely those where infidelity is already present.

Hi HP

Thanks for the great update. Please check in every now and then and let us know how it's going.

I'm a little uncomfortable with a rush to marriage but do understand the reasoning for it. I do think financial stability is important. Only you guys with your ICs and MC can decide if M is the correct near term vehicle for that goal.

Hopefully you have a nice long M together. I'm half way to 50 years of M, and even when times are very good it takes both partners to be present and engaged to make it successful.

Your WW must learn that when the times are not so good, the answer is NEVER to fall into the arms of another. If there comes another time when you and she are not connecting she needs to jump and yell and scream at you that she needs help and is in crises and get both of you into therapy quick, NOT sleep with another guy. .

And lastly, if she is going to spend a career in a male dominated field, this is not the last time she's going to get hit on. She's going to need the proper tools to maneuver herself away for those situations. She's shown in the past she can't.

I even suggest role playing with her so she has the right words available and ready to say to shut down any would be OM that approaches her in the coming decades.

Again congratulations with her "getting it". Remember it's a marathon not a sprint. You're just starting out on this journey. Don't lose focus. Aside from the work you do about the A, stay focused and IN THE MARRIAGE yourself. It requires two engaged partners to make it work over the coming years.

Gotta agree with the pre-nup. Please look into this before considering moving forward with marriage. It'll put you in an even better financial position if she cheats again, and you decide to continue being a stay at home dad.

HP

Good update.

That feeling in the mornings? That’s because you know she’s going into affair-territory…

You just aren’t comfortable with her there even if she goes there with the purest of intentions. It’s sort of like if she was a recovering alcoholic working at a bar… The easy access would always make you feel uneasy.

This is one of many reasons I have been so firm on NC – YOU won’t heal until it’s in place.

OK – You can survive the present situation FOR NOW, but keep in mind that you are still dragging the piano. It will slow you down but at least it sounds like you are both pulling… Now just imagine the pace and distance you two could make once you drop the piano!

Only… don’t be expecting much progress. I get it from your post that you already feel like you are moving along, but you have a long road ahead of you. Right now, simply keeping momentum is fine, but the ongoing contact will slow you down.

I fully support your decision to marry. From a purely practical and financial POV it’s to your advantage. Make sure you are totally clear on what is marital property and what is considered “hers”.

I think it’s imperative you learn some tough life-lessons from this affair:

NEVER allow yourself to be so totally dependent on another person for down-to-earth nitty gritty practical issues. I have no problem with you being a SAHD, but to do so while assets are in her name, income in her name and so on WITHOUT the contract-safety of something like a marriage… not a good idea.

Your DD (singular or plural?) will grow. They will be less dependent on you and less reliant on someone being home all day. Start planning for your future. Finish your education, get a skill.

Think of it this way: IF something was to happen 5 years from now – something being anything from divorce, death, accident, disease… - how would YOU can ensure your DD financial well-being?

Jobs don’t only generate an income, but they often form a crucial social environment. They can provide you with challenges and changes and allow you to interact with your peers. This would IMHO probably make you happier and therefore a better husband and father.

In the excitement of planning a marriage then find time to sit down to a serious discussion on the financial aspect of your future. Cover things like pre-marital assets, a possible pre-nup to even things out, making sure your role as SAHD is understood and appreciated, a plan for you to get back into the working environment… It’s not romantic, but having these issues cleared up might be a major stepping stone towards a happy future.

No soliciting.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 1:21 PM, May 15th (Monday)]

As far as the wedding, we have decided to push forwards TOWARDS it for a few reasons.

... The other is to help secure me financially. If we still marry, and it doesn't work out, when we divorce I will be assured more financial protections than I currently have. I will be able to claim assets that are currently in her name alone. She is pushing for this more than I am at the moment, but it makes sense to me.

hurtpenguin,

IIWY, I would speak to a lawyer about this. Generally, marital assets are only those that the parties obtain while married. Money and property that one spouse owned before the wedding is usually not considered a marital asset unless the owner gives his or her spouse an interest in it.

(t/j) what is IIWY?

Getting married is rug sweeping in this case. You were planning on getting married, she went and found a boyfriend and you've affirmed that choice by rewarding her with a married.

She can give you half of her assets without getting married