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Penguin

Have you retrieved all the texts/communication between them from the first trip they took til you exposed them?

Have you put your wedding plans on hold until you work the long process to fully R?

It sounds like she is trying but as you have been, stay vigilant.

Penguin, the part that bothered me was that she was not able to look at you while describing why she was late. Because you observed this evasive behavior, I think your gut was telling you to question her story too.

If she was in her boss' offfice as she said, why didn't she text you when she got to her desk or in the car? All she'd have to say was that she had a meeting run late with her boss and she was coming directly home now? While not great, i suspect it wouldn't have set you off like she did.

Too much backsliding too soon. This doesn't give me an optimistic feeling about her ability to change.

"match my facial expressions to the chart to determine what I'm feeling"? Then looks at me like I'm crazy when I say how how stupid and useless the chart is and that I don't believe in dumb yoga breathin techniques.

I can't blame you for that one, I would have went off like a rocket on the cartoon chart.

[This message edited by twisted at 2:41 PM, May 3rd (Wednesday)]

As for yesterday a few things happened that I would like some input on from you great people on SI.

She screwed up twice in one day and the same way both times -- failing to keep you informed of her plans, activities and whereabouts.

You handled it very well. However, IIWY, I would be asking myself a few questions, like:

1) How do I know she's telling me the truth about what happened? For instance, how do I know she wasn't talking to the OM in the morning before she left or during the work day, and how do I know that she was late because of her boss and not because she was with the OM?

2) How many more incidents of this sort am I prepared to excuse? Two a day, one a day, two a week, one a week? (Frankly, at this stage in the R process, there shouldn't be ANY.)

3) What consequences should there be whenever my WW fails to do something she promised? (If there are no consequences, why should she bother? You might start with something like she sleeps on the couch for a night or two.)

4) Am I willing to end the M if she doesn't demonstrate her commitment to R, and have I let he know this in a convincing manner. (If not, you're just spinning your wheels and she's probably already figured out that you will let her get away with murder.)

Please understand that the bedrock of R is the willingness of the BH to end the M if the WW does not do what is asked of her. Even a well-meaning WW quickly lose her commitment to R if she perceives that her BH is not holding her to account.

Pulling for you.

I've had hard ass bosses and I've had easy bosses. Literally not one of them would mind if I said "mind if I just text my husband to let him know I'm going to be a few late? He was expecting me at my kid's soccer game"

She could barely look at me the whole time and when I asked her why she said because she's so ashamed and it hurts her so badly to see how angry/hurt/frustrated I am.

While she may be ashamed I know it's hard to look at someone and lie to their face.

She seem to be going in the right direction but there are gaps which may be perfectly innocent but you know her history and your triggers.

Penguin, the part that bothered me was that she was not able to look at you while describing why she was late. Because you observed this evasive behavior, I think your gut was telling you to question her story too.

If she was in her boss' offfice as she said, why didn't she text you when she got to her desk or in the car? All she'd have to say was that she had a meeting run late with her boss and she was coming directly home now? While not great, i suspect it wouldn't have set you off like she did.

I didn't take her lack of eye contact as being evasive, I took it as her using the same tool she has always used when confronted with something she doesn't want to deal with...avoidance. I'm not making excuses for her, but this has been an ongoing issue in our relationship, most likely stemming from previous circumstances in her life (that I'm fully aware of).

I am hopeful that with some IC she will be able to address this issue as it seems to relate to her alcohol abuse as well. Our MC has indicated that my WW has a distorted view of what are acceptable boundaries and lacks coping skills to deal with stress in a healthy way. I feel strongly at this point that she was abusing alcohol and using her A as a way of escaping/avoiding dealing with problems in our relationship, and that getting help with learning new coping skills could go a long way in our relationship.

I myself have never been one to talk about emotions (something I'm doing now far better and something I will continue to strive to improve) so I can empathize.

Have you retrieved all the texts/communication between them from the first trip they took til you exposed them?

Have you put your wedding plans on hold until you work the long process to fully R?

I have told her I was thinking it might be helpful to me if I could run retrieval software on her phone and go through their texts. She didn't hesitate and told me to do what I felt I needed to heal and that she was fully supportive, but it is something I dont know if I REALLY NEED to. I feel like I'm almost past the discovery stage, however I will have a few more talks with her to ensure what little pieces I need left to move on past WHAT happened and get to fixing WHY it happened are given to me.

The wedding plans are on hold for now (we are still quite a ways out so everything is fully refundable and actual plans don't need to be made for a while) and we will have those discussions in MC (if we continue).

1) How do I know she's telling me the truth about what happened? For instance, how do I know she wasn't talking to the OM in the morning before she left or during the work day, and how do I know that she was late because of her boss and not because she was with the OM?

2) How many more incidents of this sort am I prepared to excuse? Two a day, one a day, two a week, one a week? (Frankly, at this stage in the R process, there shouldn't be ANY.)

3) What consequences should there be whenever my WW fails to do something she promised? (If there are no consequences, why should she bother? You might start with something like she sleeps on the couch for a night or two.)

4) Am I willing to end the M if she doesn't demonstrate her commitment to R, and have I let he know this in a convincing manner. (If not, you're just spinning your wheels and she's probably already figured out that you will let her get away with murder.)

These are great points Alchemy and I appreciate all your posts (even if I dont share all your views). Because, as I've talked about, her communication skills have been very poor I believe I am allowing her a little more room for error right now. Especially yesterday (specifically the 2nd of the month) considering she has hard deadlines for work and throughout her career these days have usually meant longer than average work days. Had she been EXTREMELY late I think it would be a bigger issue, but the fact is she was really only 20 minutes past the agreed upon time.

I also agree that there should be 0 incidents, something I expressed to her. I feel like she is just coming around to the gravity of the situation and an understanding that all the small things are GIGANTIC things to me now and she is sensitive to it.

One of her biggest meltdowns came when I gave her the harshest reality check. I told that before our last MC session if I learned of any new information that she refused/forgot to disclose after our MC session, that this would be done. I would move out and the parenting of our children would be done completely separately and that custody transfer of the children would be through a 3rd party mediator and that I would want to have 0 contact with her for the rest of my life. She was inconsolable for literally and hour and a half after this conversation. I've never seen her like that before and it was after this conversation I really started to see some serious changes in her efforts. I think/hope the thought of losing me in every capacity forever really struck her hard and I think she's doing everything she can to keep that from happening.

As far as consequences for failed promises, I have read that "punishing" leads both parties down a path away from R. It leads to more of a "parent-child" relationship than an adult partnership, and can breed resentment in the punished.

I really believe that she loves me, and I really believe that I love her. This is just very hard to get through day by day trying to piece back together small amounts of trust. I see why people say it takes a long time to heal from this, but so far we both are committed to at least trying.

I am pointing out the obvious but it needs to be said: this is affair behavior.

For a drug addict, there is a distinct behavior that accompanies using. When in recovery, other addicts recognize it and will remind the person, in no uncertain terms, that they are preparing to use again & need to reach out for help or they will slip. Who will help her get back on track if the need to cheat starts to overwhelm her? Does she have anyone she can go to for help? More important, will she seek that help?

If I were you I would tell her that there is no denying her behavior - regardless of the reason - is feeling like the affair all over again and that she needs to confront this with a counselor. Even if she swears up and down that she does not want to cheat, I think the safe move - for both of you - is to confront this with a professional.

[This message edited by anoka at 4:56 PM, May 3rd (Wednesday)]

As far as consequences for failed promises, I have read that "punishing" leads both parties down a path away from R. It leads to more of a "parent-child" relationship than an adult partnership, and can breed resentment in the punished.

Punishment can be a consequence, but not all consequences are punishments.

In cases involving infidelity, D is the ultimate consequence, but I doubt that many would call it a punishment. Likewise for separation, a post-nuptial agreement or the 180.

The example I gave, making her sleep on the couch, does sound more like a punishment but, given a choice between it and the four consequences mentioned above, my guess is that most WWs would prefer it.

As for "punishment" leading away from R, perhaps in some cases it does. But, if earned, I can't think of a single case of it and I've read nearly 2,000 threads on five different infidelity websites. On the other hand, I've seem many examples of a BS failing to hold the WS accountable for the latter's failure to follow though on commitments made during the R process, with the result that the WS relapsed and the M ended in D.

You impress me as someone who has his act together and who is handling this better than most, so I'm not overly concerned that her two screw ups mean all that much. I just offered my suggestion to make you aware of the possibilities and to encourage you to be vigilant.

Continuing to wish you well.

I am sorry that this has happened to you and the life you had. But I'm going to have to be honest and say that I think the texting requirements and constant vigilance is a little overboard. I can understand the mistrust you presently have but the your need to know EVERYTHING, ALWAYS, IMMEDIATELY, to me would nerve racking. If she is 15 minutes late with a text you are ready to not come home? I would not have much trust in her either but you can also smother her with your insecurity. After I retired from the military I worked in the state prison system for 20 years. One of the things that military operations and prison inmates taught me was that no matter how hard you try to stop something there is always a way to accomplish your aims. People can make errors that are life changers. I know the hurt you feel but putting someone in a box that lends them no space to live can hurt also. I have read many times where a spouse will say, "If they want to stay with me they will do everything I say." And they will but only if they see things getting better. Just my 2 cents worth. I really hope things work out for you. I do wish you well.

I am very anti-punishment.

Right now penguin has established his boundaries and she can either try to respect them or not. If she can't then they should not be together and it's better to just move on and shift the focus on how to successfully coparent while separated

Dear hurtpenguin,

Am very very sorry bro. My heart goes to you.

Over and above what others have advised you, I would advise you to hang in here and read as much as you can. You will find tons of help, advice, etc.

Also, as stayedforhekids has pointed, look for a damn job fast. You will be respected for that.

I am in a similar situation like you. I work from home and make tons of money (more than my WW) but still she had an office affair. Its tough. Very tough. But you will pull through.

Hugs

Dear hurtpenguin,

Am very very sorry bro. My heart goes to you.

Over and above what others have advised you, I would advise you to hang in here and read as much as you can. You will find tons of help, advice, etc.

Also, as stayedforhekids has pointed, look for a damn job fast. You will be respected for that.

I am in a similar situation like you. I work from home and make tons of money (more than my WW) but still she had an office affair. Its tough. Very tough. But you will pull through.

Hugs

I have told her I was thinking it might be helpful to me if I could run retrieval software on her phone and go through their texts. She didn't hesitate and told me to do what I felt I needed to heal and that she was fully supportive, but it is something I dont know if I REALLY NEED to.

That is up to you, I would, but I needed to know where I was starting from, including all the gruesome details, just to put all the pieces of the puzzle together. I was at the point that it really couldn't get any worse ( famous last words) and she had nothing more to lose.

It may help with imagining things that didn't happen, or allow both of you to see how the events demonstrate the slippery slope of the affair mentality. To me, the more light you can shine on it the better. That also comes with the risk of more hurt for you, and embarrassment for her.

You might as well hit bottom if you're going to try and climb out.

Good luck, Penquin

Penguin one thing that helped me was facetime or skype. It helped when he was running late or traveling so incould see his face and whereabouts.

hurtpenguin, I've read through your recent posts and there's quite a lot going on here. I hope I can shed some light on a little of this for you. Much of this, of course, is based upon my own experience. The rest is wisdom I've picked up from SI members, the veterans in particular.

PISD) Post-infidelity stress disorder is more or less the same as PTSD, with subtle differences. Take some time and do a little research (even wiki) on PTSD and how it can affect people. Among the symptoms are hypersensitivity and hyper-vigilance. I experienced both of these in those first few months, along with hysterical bonding. It seems that everything and anything my FWW did, or didn't do, said or didn't say, was a potential trigger, like being late, not texting at the right time, being out of the office, or travelling out of town (which is when she cheated). All of this is common, normal and natural. Some people aren't too affected by it. For others, it can be extremely powerful and require professional help. I think recognizing it and understanding it goes a long way to mitigating it and, eventually, letting it go. Talk to your IC about this.

SAHDs) I've done enough research on infidelity to know that there are no substantial conclusions or statistics on why it happens. It's as complex as human nature itself. Being a SAHD has nothing to do with a WS's choices. However controversial it may be in contemporary society, it's not a justification or cause of infidelity. The major factor is simply opportunity. The position in which BHs or a BWs find themselves is the same; they are both financially dependent upon a wayward spouse. That's a shaky situation no matter how you view it.

CoD & CA Tendencies) It seems to me that this is a very, very common dynamic in relationships. One partner has codependent tendencies and the other tends to avoid conflict. When an unstoppable force meets an immovable object, bad things are bound to happen. In our case, my FWW's CoD tendencies were strong enough to lead her down that path of infidelity. I was the one with conflict avoidant tendencies. It's an extremely difficult dynamic to break.

What I've learned about codependency is mostly from my wife, Beattie and others here on SI. What I know about conflict-avoidance is my own life. Now, this is my own impression here, but people who tend to avoid conflict are some of the most difficult people with whom to reconcile. There's a catch-22 element to conflict avoiders. We tend to avoid the conflicts within ourselves more than anyone else. Until your fiancé can stop avoiding herself, nothing will ever truly change.

Exigencies) Life goes on. There will be times when your fiancé's boss calls her into the office for a meeting late in the day. She'll give her boss her full attention, as she should. She may lose track of time. It happens. My FWW's concept of time isn't the same as mine and never will be. She's habitually late. That shit drove me fucking insane after D-day, because I was hypersensitive and hyper-vigilant and hyper-one-step-away-from-go-fuck-yourself.

Again, this is fairly common stuff here. That insecurity is natural, a consequence of the WMD your fiancé just dropped into your lap. But, life goes on and there are still things in our lives that often take priority.

Expectations) A member here often writes that "disappointment is the difference between expectations and experience." Now, I might get this a bit wrong, but another member once wrote that "expectations are premeditated resentment."

Carefully consider what you expect from your wayward fiancé and what you expect from yourself. I know you want to reconcile, preserve your family, and, perhaps, feel comfortable enough to one day marry her. To expect these things to happen, however, will set you up for disappointment. It's hard enough to R and the odds aren't good. Stick around here long enough and that becomes painfully obvious.

The most important advice I can give to a betrayed spouse (fiancé, partner, whatever) is to detach from your wayward and focus on you and your recovery. Forget about R; you don't know yet if your fiancé is willing and or capable. Rid yourself of any expectations regarding the relationship (or what's left of it) and let go of the outcome. You cannot R alone, no matter how much you want it.

Alcoholism) If you think your fiancé is an alcoholic, I would suggest you make AA, and sobriety, a requirement for R.

Stay strong, hurtpenguin, and keep your head up. This shit storm is just starting for you. It gets easier, but it takes time and effort.

[This message edited by Unhinged at 1:36 PM, May 4th (Thursday)]

Hurtpenguin;

Been busy for the last few days and this post was started some time ago. Maybe some of the issues have been covered…

You mention WW (let’s just call her that and skip the fiancé title for now) is attending AA.

Why? Does she have some substance/alcohol issue? Did that factor in the affair? Please elaborate.

------------

Back to the practical issue of your legal status and your role in the relationship.

I for one don’t see it as an issue that you two decided that YOU stay at home with the kids. Key-issue being that YOU TWO decided that. The reason she has a career, can work long hours, travel, gets the big check… is because you cover the home-base. If you both were working, then that would impact the hours you two could put into the job. Plus – your combined decision that you stay home saves on child-care and other factors.

The KEY here is that it’s a decision. A joint decision.

Problem is that sometimes we need to remember and remind why a decision is reached.

Another problem is that the legal- and business aspect of the marriage contract covers the bases that need to be covered regarding these decisions.

If getting married ensures your rights to half of your combined assets, ensures access to kids and all that then MAYBE you two should be heading for the court-house and a quick marriage simply for your financial protection. To me it sounds you two already have all the factors that would make divorce hard anyway, only now it would be a separation (since you aren’t married) and your rights heavily contested.

At the VERY LEAST you should be getting legal advice. Maybe a fund only in your name, maybe a contract ensuring you stay at home and some support for 24-26 months… whatever.

You really need to fix the extremely exposed financial position you are in right now.

One think you should consider is making any reconciliation contain a path for your financial future. Use marital funds for your education, starting a home-based business… whatever.

The MC? The key issue IMHO is if he puts even a shred of blame for the affair on you. IMHO it’s OK if he says “this behavior is not OK and is part of what might have made WW reach that decision” but it’s not OK if he says “this behavior is not OK and is why WW had an affair”.

Ask the MC if he would blame a rape-victim for being a rape-victim. Ask the MC if the fact the victim wore a short skirt, flirted with the rapist or didn’t put up a fight make her less a victim or accountable for her rape. Infidelity is comparable in the sense that often the victim is blamed.

Your insecurities when you can’t reach her… Hurtpenguin… YOU decided to accept those factors when you decided you didn’t need NC and you decided the OMW didn’t need to know. Keep that in mind. She could call you every 30 minutes but still be cheating. In fact, simply having him around is keeping her infidelity alive – with her and/or with you. Knowing they aren’t working together and/or having the OMW keeping an eye on her husband… this is what would help you the most.

In other words: Ditch the weight and drop the piano because you are already getting winded and it’s still the first miles in the marathon.

My WW was indeed looking at attending some AA meetings, however we both agreed that she should first talk to her IC (who also specializes in alcohol management) to determine if she has an actual dependence or if she just habitually uses alcohol as a coping mechanism, another way of avoidance for issues she doesn't want to confront. Yes alcohol played a large part in the A (initially) On DDay for example I was able to discover because she passed out from drinking while texting the AP, phone in one hand and mini-bottle of vodka in the other.

Alcohol + inappropriate boundaries + emotionally distressed + opportunity (being away on business)

Not excuses but seemingly the perfect recipe to the start of an A. The fact that it continued after that has been he hardest for me to understand/reconcile.

She has had previous problems with using alcohol to cope with as well, including assaulting me about 6 years ago while I was driving almost resulting in a car accident. She has also (in the past) gone to great lengths to hide her drinking from me. We addressed these things and they have gotten better (although not completely) over the years. Her biological mother is a drop dead alcoholic, which certainly can add to it.

I am hoping her IC helps her get through some of here things. For herself and for the potential of us still being together down the road. Our relationship will not survive until she learns healthy coping skills.

At this point I love her and am willing to work on myself and support her working on herself for the sake of my family

Oh and BTW want to further clarify, the ONLY reason I have continued to allow her work situation to continue is the financial stability of our family, especially for my children. I will not jeopardize the roof over my kids heads at this point. I will not allow their lives to be completely turned upside down because of the selfish acts of their mother. That Iis the ONLY reason.

My heart really goes out for you both starting out your lives with such issues hanging over your heads. It shouldn't be that way. But I have strong hopes you'll make it work. I was in a similar situation in my 20s (w/o kids in the pic which made it easier) and after her 2nd infidelity we chose the path of going separate ways. 9 months later I met my wonderful wife and we've been together the last 30 yrs (M 25 yrs).

But it seems that this was a wake up call for you both before you have made the final step and taken vows so I am hopeful you can have a happy life together not just for the kids but for both of you as well.

Some thoughts come to mind however.

1) my wife and I have been full time workers in the corp world at separate companies the last 30 years so I believe in women in the workforce wholeheartedly. However I do believe they have a harder path in these male dominated fields, especially trying to prove themselves as equals or superiors. In addition they face often being HIT ON by type A personality men that see them as PREY. Women in a committed relationship require the fortitude to put these POSOM in their place right from the start and not walk close to a line of inappropriateness just because they don't want to hurt feelings. Often this ends in disastrous results as you have seen. Your wife has shown she does not know how to play that game. If she plans on working in this field the next 25 years to support her family she needs to know how to shut this down EVERY time. She also needs to tell you openly when that happens. This POSOM will not be the last to hit on her. You may even need to go to the extent of practicing these techniques via role playing. My wife and I have discussed this often over the years for both of us. It is important. This A will not be the last time she's presented with this set of circumstances. She needs to be prepared to handle it in the future.

2) no more alcohol. She doesn't know how to handle it. Whether it's through AA or IC she needs to spend the rest of her life, and at least her marriage, without any substances impairing her decision making. I have had family member stop carrying drinks with alcohol in their hands at parties (family friends or corporate) and they have just as fine a time. If this is not the case going forward for her, I don't have high hopes for your M.

3) set a timeline for her to get a new job where she will NEVER see the OM again. If that doesn't happen it is a deal breaker!

4) financial stability is important. Since you will probably now delay the wedding, and if you will remain a SAHD, you need your own bank account with only your name on it where a percent of her income is given to only you. Set an amount, Say 10% of her gross income, that is automatically transferred monthly from your shared bank account to the one that is only in your name (preferably at a different bank). Being a safe spouse, especially since you are not married means ensuring you have some sense of financial stability.

5) ask her to write out the steps she is going to take to ensure she gets to the place where she is a Safe Spouse to you going forward. Make sure you agree on these. Until she gets there I would not agree to having a wedding.

I really want you guys to succeed. But please realize the next 50 years is a long time. With such a poor start it's going to take real effort to make it work. It's hard without the burden of an A, so now it's even more difficult. IC for you is important so you ensure that you can be the best H you can be for her as well if you are going to make the commitment to R and moving forward in a life together.

Best wishes.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 2:23 PM, May 5th (Friday)]

I will not jeopardize the roof over my kids heads at this point. I will not allow their lives to be completely turned upside down..

Careers are nothing to trifle with. They are critically important in the modern world. Your fiancé jeopardized her job and career by having an affair with a coworker (the sheer stupidity of workplace affair never ceases to amaze me). To make matters even worse, she's his boss, which opens her up to all sorts of additional shit. These choices have already been made. She has already blown up the lives of her family.

This wasn't a part of our situation. My FWW's fling was with a man from another company in the same field. They met at a trade-show, out of town. She wouldn't tell me who he was, so I found out on my own (I had enough clues). For a while, I really wanted to blow-up this guys life. I came up with all sorts of revenge fantasies. But the simple truth was that the POS was also married, had four kids, and his wife had been a SAHM for over fifteen years. Any revenge would have a greater impact upon them than it would him.

It took me about four months to finally inform the OBS of everything I knew and how I knew it all. That was a massive fuck-up on my part. I could have saved this woman a lot of pain had I not waited. Like you, I was afraid the OBS would flip out and cause all sorts of trouble. Hollywood and authors do a great job of coming up with crazy scenarios for post-infidelity life, but most of it is just fantasy. When the OBS emailed me the next day, we both agreed not to do anything stupid and fuck-up our WSs' jobs/careers. And that was it. She thanked me for telling her what I knew and promised to let me know if any part of the OM's story didn't match my WW's.

I can't speak accurately about your fiancé, but there's a simple truth that's inescapable. Waywards lie. They lie to themselves, to their AP(s), to their spouses, kids, neighbors, friends and the entire known universe. Waywards will also take their affairs further underground, pretend to be reconciling, and continue to lead their self-destructive lives. Again, I'm not saying this is true of your fiancé. But it does happen. There are BSs here whose WSs still work with their AP. Why? Financial reasons, fat retirement packages, the job is a stepping-stone... whatever, it's continued abuse.

A very long time ago, I was a Boy Scout. We were taught to always be prepared. While you're waiting to find out if your fiancé can own and fix her shit, prepare for the worst.

One of the hardest lessons I've had to learn on SI is to let go of the outcome. You cannot reconcile your relationship alone. Indeed, the onus is on her, not you. You cannot force her to change; she has to do this on her own, with or without your support. It's entirely possible that you will end up leaving her (or she leaves you) and if you're not prepared to do that, you're going to set yourself up for a world of hurt.

It's just my personal opinion, but until I could see myself as happy either divorced or together, I couldn't make a very good decision. Two years later, I still wonder if I made the best decision. I'm still healing from this and lingering affects of infidelity can still take their toll.

Keep up the good fight, HP. But realize, failure is a possibility.

[This message edited by Unhinged at 10:26 AM, May 5th (Friday)]