SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

PanicAttack53:

This is the key my man. Anything, and I do mean anything as long as it isn't detrimental to yours and your sons well being is A.Very.Good.Thing right now. You need time outside of yourself to recharge your batteries if nothing else.

I'm on the lookout for support groups -- not that I would expect *that* to be a ball, but still. This weekend I'm back at my mom's (possibly sans the kid, though), and I hope to get together with a couple of friends. True, this pretty much violates the reason my mom *wants* me there, but she'll understand.

Look Smoke, this shit storm can be overwhelming to even the toughest, meanest hard asses on earth, let alone a nice guy like you (no offense intended). If you don't take time now and then to step away from it and recharge, it'll have untold consequences to you both physically and mentally. Trust me when I say I've BTDT!

I'm at a loss as to the kinds of things I'd like to do. I'm just not much of a "big group" person, but I'm not ruling out "big group" things.

but I'm guessing that the pain my wife is causing *me* is really getting to him, but it's nothing like his feeling of being abandoned.

I'm really concerned about this statement. Reread that again slowly please! Your deflecting again man and THAT statement is classic codependent speak. I know you love your son and you're concerned about him. I truly do get that. However, how can you know that [italics]"it's nothing like his feeling of being abandoned."[/italics]

Just my read on his behavior. But what I mean is that the pain she's causing me isn't as bad for him as his feeling of being abandoned -- not that *my* problems don't compare to *his*.

Gently here.... aren't you reading just a little of what YOU think he is feeling into what YOU yourself are really feeling? Be honest with yourself. I'm starting to get the feeling that you're what we codependents call "A Fixer". You see something wrong, or someone close to you hurting and have this overwhelming need to FIX it or them. Well I'll clue you into to something you may not want to hear. I didn't when it was told to me, and BTW, I know I'm a codependent poster boy.

Here it is..... YOU.CAN'T.FIX.ANYTHING.OR.ANYONE.BUT.YOURSELF! Read that and let it sink in for awhile. Are you getting it?

You can't FIX your son. You can't FIX H. And you most certainly can't FIX your wife or your marriage in their current state. Check that! You can't FIX your wife period! Only YOU can FIX YOU, and everything else my friend is totally 100% out of your control.

I've certainly learned that I can't fix my wife, that's for damn sure.

What you CAN do is be there to support your son. Be there to listen to him. I mean just listen without walking over what he has to tell you by commandeering the conversation. It took me a long time to finally get that one vital piece of information through my head.

Easier said that done. I have this habit of restating stuff in words that I understand -- sometimes it's not what the other person meant, though. So I try not to do that so much....

I was a fixer too and what I discovered is that I wasn't doing anyone any favors, least of all myself, by trying to fix things. I now do a lot more listening and only work on trying my best to fix myself. Because in the long run, that's the only way I can really be of benefit to others.

I think that's what the clergy guy I saw the other day was trying to tell me, but it was kind of in the form of "Work on yourself while helping others."

Sorry for the long ramble. That subject is of prime importance to me of late (can you tell?).

*That* was a long ramble? Compared to *my* rambles, that was a fortune-cookie fortune.

[This message edited by Smoky at 4:59 PM, January 10th (Thursday)]

sudra:

I can't bring myself to tell him that his mother is having an affair... especially because it's not really the affair that's making her leave (or, at least, I don't *think* it is).

Sorry to pick up on such a small thing, but it's actually not small to me.

You've been married for twenty-gazillion years, and NOW she is so unhappy she wants a divorce?? It IS the affair, trust me.

I kind of think that yeah, you're right, but at the same time I figure that the affair was the catalyst for her leaving, not the reason -- based on her statement that she's been increasingly unhappy for six years and that she'd been thinking of getting out. Guess you could say that the affair is the key that started the car. (And I still want to do such profound and brutal damage to all aspects of "H"'s life, even though I know he's not really the focus....)

And believing anything else indicates to me that you blame yourself. That's why this is important. Nothing about her "unhappiness" led her to divorce you last year, or the year before, or five years before that. It is the affair because she's in that affair fog so deep that all she can think of is how much "happier" she can be without you.

I certainly think that part is true, and I hope to hell the fog lifts soon enough -- regardless of what it makes her do. I know I need to stop worrying about what effect this asshole will have on her, but at the moment, I can't help it.

She is leaving because of the affair. I have no doubt. If you do, at least make sure it's not because you think you were a bad husband that she is leaving you.

Oh, certainly there's going to be some of that. I mean, no, I really don't think I'm a bad husband at all -- but one with some shortcomings. The depth to which I love her, apparently, doesn't make up for the shortcomings, and that's one way in which she and I differ hugely. I do think, though, that I was unable to do what her father also was unable to do: give her a life without horrible financial problems. And I also think daddy issues are a big part of the equation here.

but one with some shortcomings

Smoky, if you know someone WITHOUT shortcomings please let me know!!

Every single one of us has them BUT that is not a go-ahead for our spouses to treat us like shit!!

As I am sure has been pointed out to you there were many ways for her to let you know. An A ain't one of 'em!

It took me 3 years before I made a firm decision, one that I could live with. Luckily for Mr S2S he got it real quick that this time I was serious, and now here we are in MC and he stepped up to the plate so the A is not a 24/7 thing in my mind.

Just take care of you and your buddy, for right now. The rest will fall into step when you are ready.

still2suspicious:

Smoky, if you know someone WITHOUT shortcomings please let me know!!

Every single one of us has them BUT that is not a go-ahead for our spouses to treat us like shit!!

I certainly let my wife know this. There is *no* excuse to enter an affair. As has been pointed out here many times, there were many points in the timeline that led to the affair where she could have backed off, but didn't -- she chose to continue. And she's *okay* with that -- somehow she doesn't see it as reprehensible and not worthy of herself. This I may never understand, because "fog" just doesn't cover it. There is *nothing* she has said about our marriage or our life together that constitutes anything remotely resembling a reason for entering an affair. So I've got no pity for her.

As I am sure has been pointed out to you there were many ways for her to let you know. An A ain't one of 'em!

Exactly. *Talking* might have helped, beyond stuff like "I'm concerned you're not doing enough to get a job." F'chrissakes, why not "This is really tearing me up and making me miserable -- I need you to hear me"? Why not? Lack of respect? Lack of courage, certainly.

It took me 3 years before I made a firm decision, one that I could live with. Luckily for Mr S2S he got it real quick that this time I was serious, and now here we are in MC and he stepped up to the plate so the A is not a 24/7 thing in my mind.

I'm assuming that what you want is to be with Mr. S2S, in which case... I'm glad for you -- sad that you've been through this unbelievable shit tsunami, but glad that an end result is in sight that you can live with.

I wish, meanwhile, that I'd managed to put a scare into Mrs. Smoky... oh, wait, I *did*: Last Friday, when I was talking "at" her, she said, "You're scaring me!" (I know I mentioned this.) I said, "What do you think I'm gonna do? I'm not gonna hurt you." (Or words to that effect.) And she said, "I know. But you're *scaring* me!"

I really want to know what exactly was scaring her.

Just take care of you and your buddy, for right now. The rest will fall into step when you are ready.

Did I mention the "co-parenting" thing? The clergy guy I saw recommended it -- urged it, even, saying that this is the one aspect that divorcing couples usually fail to address. I sent her a note saying that we should look into it -- I mean, my kid's behavior on those occasions I've mentioned really threw me for a loop, and her too, I guess -- and that the stakes are too high not to. Being a wimp, I also added that I wasn't trying to coerce her into marriage counseling, and anyway, this *isn't* marriage counseling.

She replied today: She's willing to go, if I'm willing to do the research. And that as long as the sessions aren't on rehearsal nights, she'll Try Her Best to be there.

Now *that's* commitment!

I certainly think that part is true, and I hope to hell the fog lifts soon enough -- regardless of what it makes her do. I know I need to stop worrying about what effect this asshole will have on her, but at the moment, I can't help it.

This is normal at your stage in all this Smoke, not very healthy, but still normal. Trouble is that as long as you stay in this mode of worrying about WW, you will remain in limbo as far as your life and what you have to do now to move on.

Also, doing this is a subconscious way for you to keep your M alive in your own mind. Even if it's just scraps of hope you read into things right now. Again gently here.... It's over Smoke, the ship has already sailed my friend and the sooner you finally realize that, the sooner you will be able to concentrate on what is important now...e.g., you moving on with your life without her.

I remember being where you're at not too long ago. I was in limbo and subconsciously hoping that WW would have some miracle epiphany, come out of the fog, fix herself and realize she truly wanted to reconcile.

Luckily I got myself straightened out in IC. My counselor helped me understand that I was falling down that rabbit hole of hanging on to something that was already dead and gone, because it was way more comfortable for me to do so.

I was afraid Smoke, REALLY afraid.... scared shitless in fact. Afraid of moving on, creating a new life on my own, being lonely etc.. etc... Once my C hit me with the "it's more comfortable" idea, it all made sense to me and my life started to fall in line again. I'm no where near as afraid now (sans a minor blip during the holidays) as I was a couple months ago. I'm also getting stronger, braver and more able to detach as each day passes. The thing is my friend, I would have never got to this point if I didn't take that first step, which was admitting to myself that I was trying to hang on to something that was already lost.

Please, just think about that some. Try to let go of her completely for a couple of minutes today. Then a couple of more tomorrow, more the next day and so on. The more you do this and picture a new life without WW in it, the more you'll begin to be able to finally detach and move on.

We're ALL still here for you Smoke!

PanicAttack53:

This is normal at your stage in all this Smoke, not very healthy, but still normal. Trouble is that as long as you stay in this mode of worrying about WW, you will remain in limbo as far as your life and what you have to do now to move on.

Also, doing this is a subconscious way for you to keep your M alive in your own mind. Even if it's just scraps of hope you read into things right now. Again gently here.... It's over Smoke, the ship has already sailed my friend and the sooner you finally realize that, the sooner you will be able to concentrate on what is important now...e.g., you moving on with your life without her.

Rationally, I know all that. That's what drives me crazy -- i.e., that I can't make the hope just *stop*. I mean, when we broke up in '83, it took six months, but she came back... and she had given me no reason to think she ever would. I need to find a way to make myself believe that it's impossible for her to come back again, but at the moment, that's not happening.

I remember being where you're at not too long ago. I was in limbo and subconsciously hoping that WW would have some miracle epiphany, come out of the fog, fix herself and realize she truly wanted to reconcile.

That sounds familiar.

Luckily I got myself straightened out in IC. My counselor helped me understand that I was falling down that rabbit hole of hanging on to something that was already dead and gone, because it was way more comfortable for me to do so.

All I can hope for is that my therapist will do that for me, too. I mean, I suppose she could just browbeat me with "Look, idiot, it's *over*! She's *never*, but *ever*, coming back. There's a better chance of you winning a $700 million lottery *and* boning a parade of supermodels *and* playing center field for your favorite team *and* Italy breaking off from Europe and zooming around the oceans till it comes to rest just outside of Vancouver than there is of your wife coming back. Accept it! Accept it! Accept it!" But -- at this point -- it would all be just words. The hope would still be there. I hate that.

I was afraid Smoke, REALLY afraid.... scared shitless in fact. Afraid of moving on, creating a new life on my own, being lonely etc.. etc... Once my C hit me with the "it's more comfortable" idea, it all made sense to me and my life started to fall in line again. I'm no where near as afraid now (sans a minor blip during the holidays) as I was a couple months ago. I'm also getting stronger, braver and more able to detach as each day passes. The thing is my friend, I would have never got to this point if I didn't take that first step, which was admitting to myself that I was trying to hang on to something that was already lost.

That's where I'm blocked. I can't make myself believe that it *is* lost, at least not forever. I *want* to, but....

Please, just think about that some. Try to let go of her completely for a couple of minutes today. Then a couple of more tomorrow, more the next day and so on. The more you do this and picture a new life without WW in it, the more you'll begin to be able to finally detach and move on.

We're ALL still here for you Smoke!

As always, much appreciated.

I don't want to think about her all the time, and the dreams are killing me. I mean, just this morning I dreamed that I was telling an old, long-out-of-touch friend about all this, complete with details... I mean, I can't even escape it in my *dreams*. (Of course, even in my dreams, I never cheated on her -- I'd always go, "Oh, right, I'm married....")

I think a lot about one of the first things she said when she came over last Friday to lower the boom: "I know I've done a lot of things that are probably unforgivable." Well... I *want* to forgive her. I really do. But I'm pretty sure there's only one way that can happen, and she's not inclined to accommodate me. Here I am keying in on every little thing she says and does, but: her use of "*probably* unforgivable" suggests to me that she hopes I *can* forgive her, and that she knows that these things are really really awful, even unacceptable... and here I am, thinking about *trying* to forgive her.

Which I guess means "letting go of the anger" -- and let's just say I'm nowhere near that point. (I'm not great at letting go of anger anyway, and I tend to hold grudges -- a personality trait I'm not proud of.) I don't want to hang onto this anger for the rest of my life, let alone the pain. I know "the only way around it is *through* it" and all that, but these feelings -- as you know -- are horrific. Worst things ever.

Perhaps I should look at this as a wake-up call -- granted, a really extreme one -- to change my life drastically (which is also scary), but it's hard to view this as an "opportunity."

here's a better chance of you winning a $700 million lottery *and* boning a parade of supermodels *and* playing center field for your favorite team *and* Italy breaking off from Europe and zooming around the oceans till it comes to rest just outside of Vancouver than there is of your wife coming back.

Well at least you obviously still have your sense of humor.

Which I guess means "letting go of the anger" -- and let's just say I'm nowhere near that point. (I'm not great at letting go of anger anyway, and I tend to hold grudges -- a personality trait I'm not proud of.) I don't want to hang onto this anger for the rest of my life, let alone the pain. I know "the only way around it is *through* it" and all that, but these feelings -- as you know -- are horrific. Worst things ever.

So don't let go of the anger yet Smoke. It's too early to do that anyway. Feel it, Process it, Be mindful of it. THEN let it go. Imagine it escaping your head and floating into deep space.... GONE forever. Just try not to sit and brood over it 24/7, because it will eat you up that way.

Perhaps I should look at this as a wake-up call -- granted, a really extreme one -- to change my life drastically (which is also scary), but it's hard to view this as an "opportunity."

But it IS an "opportunity". For a lot of things. It's an opportunity for you to stop allowing your WW to infect both you and your son with her toxins. It's an opportunity for you to begin to detach for your own well being, no matter what the future may hold. It's an opportunity to finally put a stop to the "crazy train" you're now on. Forget about the rest of this mess for now. Just try and concentrate on that and being good to yourself. That's enough for now, the rest will come in time.

[This message edited by PanicAttack53 at 4:13 PM, January 11th (Friday)]

Well at least you obviously still have your sense of humor.

Son, sometimes it feels like that's *all* I've got.

So don't let go of the anger yet Smoke. It's too early to do that anyway. Feel it, Process it, Be mindful of it. THEN let it go. Imagine it escaping your head and floating into deep space.... GONE forever. Just try not to sit and brood over it 24/7, because it will eat you up that way.

Well, I certainly know *that*, 'cause that's what's happening. I can't stop the circular, repetitive thoughts. And it's not just the anger, but the sadness and pain and *need*. I'll be thinking about something else, and before I even realize it, I'm fantasizing about swiping the jagged ends of a broken bottle across "H"'s eyeballs... or trying to wonder what I can say or do to influence my wife's thinking (even though I know I can't)... or trying to figure out how I can drive a wedge between her and "H" (even though I know I can't)..., etc. Excruciating.

Perhaps I should look at this as a wake-up call -- granted, a really extreme one -- to change my life drastically (which is also scary), but it's hard to view this as an "opportunity."

But it IS an "opportunity". For a lot of things. It's an opportunity for you to stop allowing your WW to infect both you and your son with her toxins. It's an opportunity for you to begin to detach for your own well being, no matter what the future may hold. It's an opportunity to finally put a stop to the "crazy train" you're now on. Forget about the rest of this mess for now. Just try and concentrate on that and being good to yourself. That's enough for now, the rest will come in time.

I hear all that. I know the truth in what you're saying. I just don't seem to be able to bully my brain into thinking along those lines. Forget? How?

Right now I'm at my mom's, which is about an hour away from home. The kid's home, with a cold. (Think his mom's going out of her way to take care of him? Why, that would get in the way of her social life!) My mom, of course, is very sympathetic and supportive toward me, and very angry with my wife (who, after all, betrayed *her*, too). Said that (now that she has my "permission") she's told her closest friends about my marital situation. One friend said, "An alcoholic womanizer. Nice. She sure can pick 'em." That kind of helped, mildly.

One of my closest friends is gonna come to the house tomorrow. At age 49, he's a first-time newlywed -- got married on our 27th anniversary, which is sort of chilling. He's nothing but supportive, and rather vocally disdainful toward my wife's behavior. We've talked 'round and 'round the whole thing, and I don't know what new ground there is to tread, but just hanging out with him should be helpful. Also gonna have a meal with an old friend... who's good friends with a divorce lawyer. So I figure it's a "productive" visit.

Then on Monday I've got therapy -- and I get to inform my therapist that my wife said "it's over," and now I need some technique, or something, to curtail any hopeful thoughts, help me detach, and motor through the morass.

I'm really thankful I've got such supportive friends and family, and -- again -- for all the support I've found here. I hope that once I'm through this, I'll be able to pay it forward. But until then... it's fucking hell. It really is. I know you all know that, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

it's fucking hell

^^^this is so true, Smoky.

Now you know where you stand. That's the good news. The shit news is you will go thru hell first. The better news is that you will come out on the other side a much stronger Smoky.

I know the thought of separating, after so many years, is a f'n bucket of ice. My H and I separated (well, I actually up and packed and left one day w/o letting him know ) after 35 yrs! (it's in my journal if you want to read my story) I didn't find out about bitchface for another month. I was already in a huge tailspin so when DDay came along I think I spun down to China

you want is to be with Mr. S2S

It is still a work in progress. We are still in MC, not cuz of the A, at this point, but cuz we both changed during our troubled years, and not for the better. But at least Mr S2S is now listening, and being open, which, like all WS's, he was not doing before.

Sending hugs to you today, and hoping you get that much needed break while at your Mom's. (Mommies really are the best, aren't we )

still2suspicious:

Now you know where you stand. That's the good news. The shit news is you will go thru hell first. The better news is that you will come out on the other side a much stronger Smoky.

I want to believe that. I'm certainly not feeling strong right now. It's as though the constant thoughts and feelings of hope and need are a huge weakness. I keep thinking I want to give her a path back to me, and I don't seem able to make myself know that she doesn't want that path -- mostly, I guess, because of the possibility that one day she might.

I feel in my heart that she's fighting (a) her own shit that she's carried with her forever, (b) her own guilt at what she's done and is doing, (c) (and this is the big, bad, crazy-making one) her knowledge, on some level (and maybe one that isn't even all that deep) that all I did was state things that she knows to be true (for instance, about the person I am and the person "H" is, and how she's visiting her own, personal horrors onto my son and me, how she needs to get her head out of her ass, etc.). In other words, she's fighting the truth. I'm pretty sure that, be that as it may, I need to make myself stop *thinking* those things, and the more I try not to, the more it continues.

I know the thought of separating, after so many years, is a f'n bucket of ice. My H and I separated (well, I actually up and packed and left one day w/o letting him know ) after 35 yrs! (it's in my journal if you want to read my story) I didn't find out about bitchface for another month. I was already in a huge tailspin so when DDay came along I think I spun down to China

See, I wish I could have been the one to tell her to take a hike and/or to have her be the one who wants to fix things. Right now, I truly believe that I need desperately for her to want to fix things, to want me back. Maybe I do need this, maybe not -- but it sure feels like it. And like I said, it's slow death.

you want is to be with Mr. S2S

It is still a work in progress. We are still in MC, not cuz of the A, at this point, but cuz we both changed during our troubled years, and not for the better. But at least Mr S2S is now listening, and being open, which, like all WS's, he was not doing before.

You clearly are one patient woman. I mean... trouble *years*? Shit, it's been a month for me -- and she's been fucking "H" for maybe two or three months (she says) -- and while the anguish all feels fresh, it also feels like I've already been living with this horror for a very long time. To keep feeling this for *years*... I mean, I thought that what I went through when I was 23 was beyond hell, but it was a cakewalk compared to this. Not that this is foreign to any of you here, but: my God, the range of terrible emotions... it's overwhelming. Thank God it's not overwhelming enough to keep me from functioning (or, at least, from doing my work), but still: I feel so much pain, so betrayed, outranged, angry, enraged, embarrassed, mortified, physically "tight," utterly shat upon, shocked, disbelieving, unable to detach, tortured, tormented, needy, and all the rest of it. I mean, yeah, it's still early in the process, but, again, it doesn't *feel* like that. I'm not getting used to feeling so awful -- because in a lot of ways, it's getting worse. It's like withdrawal, which I suppose suggests "addiction," and I don't think that would be an entirely inappropriate way to describe me. I mean, I really *need* her -- her love, her presence. And -- even after all that's been said (to and by her, and in my conversations and correspondences with family, friends, the folks here, et al.), I can't get past the notion that the fact that I do truly love her so much suddenly isn't worth a damn. One might say that it's not so good that my last therapy appointment was nearly two weeks ago -- I feel like I need it every day. (Course, even the *co-pays* from five appointments a week would kill me....)

I'm starting to feel like what I need is a 12-step program for this -- complete with a sponsor who can talk me down over the phone every time I think about how much I want her back....

Sending hugs to you today, and hoping you get that much needed break while at your Mom's. (Mommies really are the best, aren't we )

I'll have to think about that -- I mean, my wife is a mommy, right? In theory, anyway.

Thanks, Still -- your concern and kindness are very touching.

Smoky,

C'mon man. Eyes off the big picture for awhile. Everything in its place. You're still trying to control outcomes. One step at a time. All the platitudes are TRUE! There really is a light at the end of the tunnel, but what they forgot to tell us is that there are 3 bends and a sharp turn to the right in the utter darkness til we can even see the light. Just keep putting that one foot in front of the other til you get there.

What positive actions did you take for no one but youself today? Read a book? Check out that new restaurant? Cook that really wierd sounding recipie? Walk around the block and help that little old lady across the street? How are you focusing on you?

How did you help your son? He's getting older, how is he seeing you deal with this? Can he cook? Remember that wierd recipie? Wanna impress the girls? How many young men can whip up a real 3 course meal?(Ditto for you in the future too!).

Stand up, your WW is the least of your concerns right now. You've got a whole new world to learn about. A son to show the ropes to. She doesn't care to participate? Well damnit that doesn't leesen his need to learn the ropes from his old man. What are you showing him? You've got a hellu'va opportunity to show him that when life knocks you down, you get back up and say "you hit like a bitch". (yea, I stole it).

Good luck brother. Keep us posted, but not too often. You've got stuff to do!

Eyes off the big picture for awhile

This. (Sorry, new iPad don't know the keyboard yet)

5454 is spot on. If all you can do is 5 mins, well that 5 mins are for you and/or your son. You know the way of the last 27 yrs. you don't just "unlearn" that in a few weeks.

I should clarify: our trouble was NOT A related before D-day, it was family related. It was not constant like an A is. Definitely not as heart-crushing as this shit.

Clarify #2: ok, not all Mommies are the best . I was just projecting how

I am

Have a good time with your buddy and try to take a break from all this shit

5454real:

C'mon man. Eyes off the big picture for awhile. Everything in its place. You're still trying to control outcomes. One step at a time. All the platitudes are TRUE! There really is a light at the end of the tunnel, but what they forgot to tell us is that there are 3 bends and a sharp turn to the right in the utter darkness til we can even see the light. Just keep putting that one foot in front of the other til you get there.

I hate to keep repeating myself -- well, that's probably not true; I can't *help* repeating myself, and usually I don't notice -- but intellectually, I *know* all that is true. It doesn't help -- not that what you're all *saying* doesn't help, because it does -- just that emotionally, I'm just not making the necessary leap.

What positive actions did you take for no one but youself today? Read a book? Check out that new restaurant? Cook that really wierd sounding recipie? Walk around the block and help that little old lady across the street? How are you focusing on you?

These are good questions. Of course, I find it hard just to focus on me. True, I'm at my mom's, while the kid is home; and I would say that the "focusing on me" part involved making sure to visit with one of my closest, oldest friends, who's a very sharp dude -- it's always better to talk horrible stuff out with him, and I like to think, right or wrong, that I've helped *him* here and there, over the years, too. And I'm gonna have lunch with another old friend tomorrow -- the one with the divorce lawyer friend. Plus, I'm reading a book -- fiction, nothing heavy about losing the love of your life, etc. True, it's not much, but hey.

How did you help your son? He's getting older, how is he seeing you deal with this? Can he cook? Remember that wierd recipie? Wanna impress the girls? How many young men can whip up a real 3 course meal?(Ditto for you in the future too!).

Funny you should mention that. I was bitching to my mom today about how my wife, when shitting on me because I don't do enough housework, conveniently ignores the fact that I do about three-quarters of the cooking, and that she *likes* my cooking.

Stand up, your WW is the least of your concerns right now. You've got a whole new world to learn about. A son to show the ropes to. She doesn't care to participate? Well damnit that doesn't leesen his need to learn the ropes from his old man. What are you showing him? You've got a hellu'va opportunity to show him that when life knocks you down, you get back up and say "you hit like a bitch". (yea, I stole it).

Good luck brother. Keep us posted, but not too often. You've got stuff to do!

I know you're right, of course. And my friend was telling me tonight that the way to get revenge on "H" is basically to just kick ass in this situation and come out on the other side in better shape. Easier said, but a good thought nonetheless.

Wish I could just stop thinking about my wife all the time, though. Today I was talking with my mom about her saying that I was "scaring" her last Friday night, the night she came over and said "it's over forever and ever, you huge dingleberry." I had said, "What do you think I'm gonna do? I'm not gonna hurt you?" And she said, "I know, but you're *scaring* me!"

I know I'm overanalyzing, doing exactly the thing some of you keep telling me not to do: analyze every little thing she says or does. But since I'm already doing that.... Anyway, what the hell is she scared of? Yeah, my voice was raised, but I wasn't actually yelling; I wasn't calling her horrible names. I was, however, very -- and very visibly -- angry and worked up, far more than she'd ever seen me before. Was she just afraid of the anger? Was she afraid that maybe I *was* gonna hurt her, even though she "knows" I wouldn't? Was she afraid I might hurt "H" (not that I actually *said* I'd love to do so)? Was she maybe scared because, in hearing what I said, she was facing some dark, stark truths? I don't know, and I wish I didn't care.

I know -- I'll try to stop. I really will.

still2suspicious:

5454 is spot on. If all you can do is 5 mins, well that 5 mins are for you and/or your son. You know the way of the last 27 yrs. you don't just "unlearn" that in a few weeks.

I'm hoping to at least get him to go on some walks with me, if only because he needs the exercise as much as I do. Right now he's got a cold -- or so he says; he *seems* okay, but very run down and tired. (I think maybe the whole situation is really knocking him for six.) But I figure that I'll get him into the car, say, next weekend and take him *somewhere*, just to do it, even if it's only a movie or something.

I should clarify: our trouble was NOT A related before D-day, it was family related. It was not constant like an A is. Definitely not as heart-crushing as this shit.

Good. You don't need this shit. No one does. Not even "H" -- because he needs much, much worse.

Oh brother, I was there, I really was. Five for five for real remember? #3 was the first marriage. She got pregnant(met her in a bar, nice right) on purpose. Being the good Irish/German catholic boy I did the right thing, ignoring eveything else and married her. I became evey womans wet dream to make it work. I cooked, I cleaned, did laundry shopped for groceries, fed my son every night as an infant(yep, she never had to get out of bed, but I REALLY liked it, it was my bonding time with him) I took a second job to help with finances(she was buying AP gifts), I went out of my way to fall in love with her daughter, did everything I could with her. NONE of it made a difference. She looked me in the eye and told me she married me so she could get child support from me. Nothing I did or could do mattered. The AP was her world.

When I finally had enough and filed for divorce I went home and spent the entire day curled into a ball crying. WW showed absolutely no remorse. Mocked me, dressed up like a slut and went on dates and told me how good the sex with the AP was and how I would never measure up. Remember, my son had a sibling and the court would NEVER split them up. She so intimitaded her first husband that he actually came to court and testified on her behalf. Whoops, I won, but only to the tune of 50k! My D was about 20 years ago, remember how the courts viewed men as custodial parents then? Wanna say utterly paralyzed? But my son needed me. I had to stand up. I had to be the man he would always know was there for him, no matter what the adversity was, no matter how much pain I was in, I was his Dad!

I couldn't have done that if I didn't fix me first. The axiom about putting the oxygen mask on yourself is true. Only by doing that was I able to even get out of the bed in the morning. Damnit, my son needed me.

I had to take classes to understand what he was going through. I had to cook breakfast in the morning to insure he was well fed. I had to set Dr appt's when he was sick. I had to play nice with mommy so he didn't think the world was an evil place.

I also had to get out from time to time to insure my own sanity. I had to see to my own health and welfare in order to insure my son had at least one parent he could always count on.

All through this process, WW was never there. She was always concerned more about her. It was sad to see, all I could ever do was be the "safe place" for my son. His world had already been rocked by mommy and daddy not living together anymore, but now his sister was no longer with him as well. God, I wish I could have asked for custody of her as well, but not a chance in hell. Remember, her dad had testified on mom's behalf. Wasn't gonna happen.

Way too long brother. It's way too late to give the rest of my story, but I wanted to let you know that I really have BTDT. I do know and understand the utter paralysis of being. I do truly understand the sense of loss and fear that you are feeling. I really do know where you are coming from.

You know what? It really boils down to what I said before. Stop being paralyzed. Do one thing for yourself today. Give yourself 5 minutes today and then, you know what? Shoot for six tomorrow. I am NOT saying this stuff doesn't hurt. I AM saying stop living there. Start fixing you. One minute, one step, one flipping second at a time. Change the paradigm. She ain't here no more.

Live for you and your son brother.

ETA: Damn brother, every single post I "hear" my own questions from before. I "see" what you are looking at. I just wanna save you from all the steps I had to take before I found SI. There is a lot of good advice that you have been given (more from others than me, I'm still nuts from #5), try some. It really will save on the heartache.

[This message edited by 5454real at 2:10 AM, January 13th (Sunday)]

Smoky, all of this is still so recent. I'd say it's quite natural still to be over-analysing and obsessing over her. But if you carry on trying, bit by bit, it will fall into place. And one day you'll be like me, and she won't cross your mind for days at a time. You CAN fall out of love with someone when they hurt you. It just takes time, and doing the same things again and again.

5454real:

Your story is astounding. It's so hard to believe that anybody would treat *anybody* that way, let alone the person they profess to love forever. I'm very sorry that you've gone through such an incredible shitstorm.

I couldn't have done that if I didn't fix me first. The axiom about putting the oxygen mask on yourself is true. Only by doing that was I able to even get out of the bed in the morning. Damnit, my son needed me.

It's hard. I'm just not used to taking care of myself first. I took a step in the right direction today, though.

First, two Christmases ago I spent time at the home of a friend (as is our Christmas Eve tradition). He took out a ukulele and started playing. He wasn't anything special, but he was enjoying it so much -- he'd always loved music, but he didn't play an instrument, and that had always sort of eaten at him.

My own musical "background" consists of about four wasted years of piano lessons, plus learing to play the uke at about 13 -- and subsequently giving it up. But when I saw how much fun he was having, I thought, "Hey, *I* like fun!" So I mentioned to my wife that I wanted to get a uke and start learning to play again.

She gave me one for Father's Day 2011 -- easily the best gift I'd ever received (well, the best *material* gift, anyway); I knew I'd never be able to come up with a gift that would mean so much to her. (For one thing, she's really good at knowing what gifts to give, and I'm just not.) I took up the uke avidely, even though there's a physical problem with it, to the effect that it's never really *quite* in tune... but she didn't know that when she bought it, and I didn't know enough to exchange the uke. So I've been playing it ever since -- though not much lately, because frankly, it hurts too much.

Today, though, I walked into a music store and put a down payment on a better uke. Hey, maybe it won't make me a better player, but at least (a) it's a better instrument, and (b) I don't have to think about it being the one *she* gave me, the gift I'll never be able to top, or even equal.

Yay, *me*!

I had to take classes to understand what he was going through. I had to cook breakfast in the morning to insure he was well fed. I had to set Dr appt's when he was sick. I had to play nice with mommy so he didn't think the world was an evil place.

I also had to get out from time to time to insure my own sanity. I had to see to my own health and welfare in order to insure my son had at least one parent he could always count on.

It's a damn good thing that you recognized the necessity of taking care of yourself, and that you actually took steps.

All through this process, WW was never there. She was always concerned more about her. It was sad to see, all I could ever do was be the "safe place" for my son. His world had already been rocked by mommy and daddy not living together anymore, but now his sister was no longer with him as well. God, I wish I could have asked for custody of her as well, but not a chance in hell. Remember, her dad had testified on mom's behalf. Wasn't gonna happen.

It sounds like you're doing everything right.

Way too long brother. It's way too late to give the rest of my story, but I wanted to let you know that I really have BTDT. I do know and understand the utter paralysis of being. I do truly understand the sense of loss and fear that you are feeling. I really do know where you are coming from.

I don't doubt you. I guess the fact is, I don't want anybody (except "H") to feel anywhere near this awful.

You know what? It really boils down to what I said before. Stop being paralyzed. Do one thing for yourself today. Give yourself 5 minutes today and then, you know what? Shoot for six tomorrow. I am NOT saying this stuff doesn't hurt. I AM saying stop living there. Start fixing you. One minute, one step, one flipping second at a time. Change the paradigm. She ain't here no more.

Live for you and your son brother.

ETA: Damn brother, every single post I "hear" my own questions from before. I "see" what you are looking at. I just wanna save you from all the steps I had to take before I found SI. There is a lot of good advice that you have been given (more from others than me, I'm still nuts from #5), try some. It really will save on the heartache.

I try. I really do read this stuff, and I want to read it all again. I've got a book coming in the mail soon that the marriage counselor recommended, and I plan to take that in as well. Think I mentioned that the gal who did my intake at the grief-counseling place last week said, "You're assembling a team" -- meaning the friends, family, therapists, clergy dude, and people here. Hell yeah -- it's a task force. I've just got a lot of spadework ahead of me.

Excellent! The uke? What a fun instrument.(It really is so much more than Tiny Tim, I just have never heard it in anything but sweet and pleasurable compositions) My personal musical choices literally run the entire gamut from Tchaikovsy to Judas Priest, Beethoven and Bach to Alicia Keys and Pit Bull. Music can literally take a soul to paradise(Yea meatloaf too)if you let it. Got plans to help/teach your son to play or is this one just for you?

You took the first step and did something positive away from all the insanity, did you do something new today? Perhaps that cooking lesson for Junior?

5454real:

Excellent! The uke? What a fun instrument.(It really is so much more than Tiny Tim, I just have never heard it in anything but sweet and pleasurable compositions) My personal musical choices literally run the entire gamut from Tchaikovsy to Judas Priest, Beethoven and Bach to Alicia Keys and Pit Bull. Music can literally take a soul to paradise(Yea meatloaf too)if you let it. Got plans to help/teach your son to play or is this one just for you?

You took the first step and did something positive away from all the insanity, did you do something new today? Perhaps that cooking lesson for Junior?

It also might be the easiest instrument to learn that isn't a kazoo. I tried playing it as a teenager but gave up -- the songs were too boring -- and I gave up on the guitar after that -- too many strings, not enough fingers. These days I play a lot of Beatles (you haven't lived until you've heard "I am the Walrus" on a uke; or after, either, probably) and other rock stuff and old, silly stuff. Given my level of talent, I can't take it *too* seriously. Much as I love the uke my wife gave me, I'd kind of like to smash it into a billion pieces, label it "my heart," and give it to her in a box. But I won't.

Haven't done anything new today -- been working -- but came home yesterday to find that I'd received the book "How to Survive the Loss of a Love," so at least I started reading that.

Would teach the kid to cook something tonight, except that he's going to for dinner with Fun Mom -- you know, since she has tonight free.

Also ended up setting appointments with two co-parenting counselors next Tuesday and Thursday nights (i.e., to decide which one we like better, if at all). Granted, this isn't exactly "for me," but still. To her credit, my wife, unprompted, actually sent me an e-mail asking me how the "research into this matter" was coming along. Anyway, given her rehearsal schedule (Monday and Wednesday) and her newly adopted sex schedule (Friday through Sunday, plus probably Monday and Wednesday, oh, and Tuesday and Thursday), those were really the only times open -- the poor thing will have to see me *twice* next week... just when she thought she'd gotten rid of me. Why, "H" will get suspicious!

This reminds me that after we went to that marriage counselor on 12/23, and after she sat in our apartment for an hour and barely visited with our son -- preferring instead to text "somebody" -- we went to the car so I could give her a lift to the house she was staying at. (BTW, I have *no* idea where she's staying now.) I handed her a bag containing a portable battery charger, since she has a habit of leaving the lights on in the car all day or night, and she won't have me to bail her ass out anymore. She thanked me -- obviously thinking it was an odd gift -- and sort of leaned toward me. I moved in to kiss her, and she turned her head away slightly... so I swooped around and kissed her on the lips. There! Fuck you! That taught her! I mean, she can't even spare a peck on the lips for her longtime husband whom she hadn't yet completely dusted? Heaven forfend that we should cheat on "H"! Still bitter? Me? Never!

Whew. It took me ages to get through the whole thread and I couldn't stop. By the time I got to the end I had to check out the date of your DDay again.

Holy Smokes, Smokey, your progress is incredible. I doubt you can see it because there is still so much pain, but I think it's amazing how far you have come in such a short time.

We all deeply wish you could hit that place of detachment because we're hurting so badly for you. Although you're not there yet I wonder if you can see the great steps forward. Here are a few steps that jumped out at me:

- Reaching out to friends, family and professionals for help and support. (I never would have survived without my family and as an earlier poster said, the silver lining to this hell was the development of a much deeper love and commitment with my dear children, my immediate family and some dear friends. I can't tell you how much I've learned about what it means to be truly present and supportive.)

- Researching and reading about how to heal yourself. (And it can be so incredibly hard to concentrate and focus even on material that may help you. I still haven't read The Journey from Abandonment to Healing.)

- Exercising - probably one of the best things you can do to help with managing your emotions. ( I've hardly moved out of my chair for a year and a half since DDay - okay I do get out of it to go to work but otherwise my commitment to exercise just dropped right off and I didn't feel one bit guilty about it.)

- Writing about your grief to release some of the anguish and to be able to see things clearly.

- Pursuing your spiritual side even though it hasn't played a huge part in your recent life anyway.

- Going back to your music. What a fabulous idea. (I need to think about how I could participate in making music.)

- Even through your own pain, you always reflect on the pain of others and reach out with kind words of concern.

- Limiting contact with your wife - SI taught me two things that made an enormous difference in my healing.

1. No contact = no new hurts. (It was my daughter who said to me, "Mom, you know why you're down today is because you have talked to Dad. There is nothing he can write, or say or do that can make you feel better. You have to stop any contact with him." She was so right.)

And the other thing that SI taught me that made such a huge difference was..... I just forgot......hmmmm....oh for heaven's sakes....I can't remember the second thing right now.

Oh brother, of course, it's the 180.

2. 180, 180, 180. The absolutely only thing we have any control over is ourselves. (After I read about the 180 I chose my username which is a tad embarrassing to me at times but it was my first step towards taking control of my own life. You see I had always been a "glass half full" kind of person - optimistic and pretty cheerful - and I was determined that my WH was not going to rob me of that. I was not going to lose my joy of life and so I named myself MsSunshine. Now that's interesting - I just realized I chose Ms and not Mrs - weird because at that point I didn't know we would end up divorced.)

Anyway Smokey, I just wanted to say that my heart aches for you right now but I know it's going to get better. Many of us have survived....no I want to say Most of us have survived and from the evidence of your growth I know you will, too. Keep it up Smokey. You're going to get there.

My DDay was July 19,2011 and I rode the rollercoaster for about a year. Which reminds me of one more quick story - I was in my counsellor's office and groaned, "I just wish I knew how long this (the pain of the rollercoaster ride) will last." My counsellor didn't skip a beat and promptly replied, "About a year." My response, "Wow. I can do that." And for me, she was about dead on.

But, the cool thing was, even while I was sitting on that ride, I still had moments of joy and laughter in my life with the people in my life who really cared about me. I learned what true love looks like and I'm so grateful for that.

Sending you heaps of strength and peace, Smokey.