SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

MsSunshine:

Holy Smokes, Smokey, your progress is incredible. I doubt you can see it because there is still so much pain, but I think it's amazing how far you have come in such a short time.

You're right -- I can't see it. It still feels like I can barely breathe. While it's true -- per the 180 -- that my wife isn't all that lovable right now, I still love her so much, and I still have hope for something that she clearly doesn't want.

We all deeply wish you could hit that place of detachment because we're hurting so badly for you.

I appreciate everybody's sympathy and concern -- though I wish nobody had to hurt on my behalf. This pain isn't something I want to spread around. It'd be cool if it go away, though.

Although you're not there yet I wonder if you can see the great steps forward. Here are a few steps that jumped out at me:

- Reaching out to friends, family and professionals for help and support. (I never would have survived without my family and as an earlier poster said, the silver lining to this hell was the development of a much deeper love and commitment with my dear children, my immediate family and some dear friends. I can't tell you how much I've learned about what it means to be truly present and supportive.)

I really do need all these people -- including the folks here. I knew from the moment I got the phone call telling me my wife was having an affair that there was no way I could handle this all by myself. Getting that call was like being 20 feet away from a runaway train -- I mean, there was no *way* it wasn't going to hit.

- Researching and reading about how to heal yourself. (And it can be so incredibly hard to concentrate and focus even on material that may help you. I still haven't read The Journey from Abandonment to Healing.)

Enough bad stuff has happened to me -- hardly anything, compared to most people (including my wife) -- to where I know I *have* to heal. I spent a long time in therapy moaning about my boss or things that didn't go so great in childhood, or dreams, or whatever... but I never really got to the "core" stuff, which really is the level of fear I possess that led to some of the stuff that has led my wife to take a hike.

And I know I shouldn't be focusing on *her* crap, but she really has had some horrific things happen to her -- terrible role models, molestation -- and I worry about *her* finding a way to heal, too. I really hope she does. But since she's in a mode of running away from her problems, I don't expect her to address the "core" ones.

- Exercising - probably one of the best things you can do to help with managing your emotions. ( I've hardly moved out of my chair for a year and a half since DDay - okay I do get out of it to go to work but otherwise my commitment to exercise just dropped right off and I didn't feel one bit guilty about it.)

That's a tough one. I don't happen to like exercising unless I'm playing softball or something... and I'm so out of shape that even *that* would hurt. I try to walk most days, for around 45 minutes. Problem there is... guess what I think about the entire time.

- Writing about your grief to release some of the anguish and to be able to see things clearly.

Now, that's something I can't help. I've been writing for so long, and it's natural for me to pour it out onto the computer. Doesn't make me feel better, though....

- Pursuing your spiritual side even though it hasn't played a huge part in your recent life anyway.

That might be the part I'm most iffy about, because it's such a nebulous thing. The bad part is that I really can't remember so much of what I spoke about with the clergy person... but he's conned me into going to at least one service, anyway (which I hate doing...).

- Going back to your music. What a fabulous idea. (I need to think about how I could participate in making music.)

That's something I've been doing for about a year and a half anyway -- roughly as long as she's been involved in community theater. I've been avoiding it a lot for the last five weeks, though -- haven't felt very musical. Plus, again, she gave me the uke, and I knew even then that I'd never find as meaningful a gift for her... so the uke itself brings up some difficult feelings.

My friend who inspired me to play it again is someone who'd had no musical background of any kind, and one day he decided that it's frustrating to love music so much but be unable to create it... so he simply took up the ukulele. For my wife, there was musical theater -- at one point she sang in a church choir (despite not being remotely religious; and she gave it up because the sermons were really pretty insulting to people of my particular religious background (which is different from hers)...). But the choir thing, if not the musical theater, began due to someone disparaging her singing... and she took it personally. (Sorry for the digression.)

- Even through your own pain, you always reflect on the pain of others and reach out with kind words of concern.

Well... here, how can I not? Everyone here is going through (or has gone through) something similar, and sometimes it's even more brutal. The only people who deserve this kind of pain are people like the guy my wife's sleeping with -- narcissists who believe they're entitled to whatever they want, so they wouldn't even feel this kind of pain if something bad happened to them.

- Limiting contact with your wife - SI taught me two things that made an enormous difference in my healing.

1. No contact = no new hurts. (It was my daughter who said to me, "Mom, you know why you're down today is because you have talked to Dad. There is nothing he can write, or say or do that can make you feel better. You have to stop any contact with him." She was so right.)

That's been hard, but "No contact = no new hurts" is a good way to look at it. So far I avoid her if I can, but mainly it's because I'm so angry with her, not because I don't want to see her or hear from her. Unfortunately, I expect to see her at least twice next week for these co-parenting sessions -- which I already feel iffy about, if only because the whole concept of it seems to fit in with what she wants, i.e., us being apart, and therefore somewhat validates the moronic decisions she's made.

2. 180, 180, 180. The absolutely only thing we have any control over is ourselves. (After I read about the 180 I chose my username which is a tad embarrassing to me at times but it was my first step towards taking control of my own life. You see I had always been a "glass half full" kind of person - optimistic and pretty cheerful - and I was determined that my WH was not going to rob me of that. I was not going to lose my joy of life and so I named myself MsSunshine. Now that's interesting - I just realized I chose Ms and not Mrs - weird because at that point I didn't know we would end up divorced.)

I'm making myself read the 180 every day now. I find it hard to adhere to, and I've already screwed up on a bunch of points.

Anyway Smokey, I just wanted to say that my heart aches for you right now but I know it's going to get better. Many of us have survived....no I want to say Most of us have survived and from the evidence of your growth I know you will, too. Keep it up Smokey. You're going to get there.

Thanks -- again, I'd rather no hearts ached on my behalf (except my wife's, frankly), but your sympathy and concern are so much appreciated. Right now I hate every day, and every hour in it, and I can't keep the thoughts, fantasies, and hopes at bay, despite what the rational part of my brain is telling me (along with everyone else).

My DDay was July 19,2011 and I rode the rollercoaster for about a year. Which reminds me of one more quick story - I was in my counsellor's office and groaned, "I just wish I knew how long this (the pain of the rollercoaster ride) will last." My counsellor didn't skip a beat and promptly replied, "About a year." My response, "Wow. I can do that." And for me, she was about dead on.

But, the cool thing was, even while I was sitting on that ride, I still had moments of joy and laughter in my life with the people in my life who really cared about me. I learned what true love looks like and I'm so grateful for that.

Sending you heaps of strength and peace, Smokey.

I feel very lucky to have so many who care about me, as well as people who are "paid to help." It's true that this whole thing has been a wake-up call -- certainly not a call I ever would have wanted to receive -- showing me that so much of my life is in disarray and needs to be fixed, ranging from health issues to just the way I approach things each day. Though I do not blame myself for my wife's departure, the stuff she cited points to behavior I need to change. I guess I should be grateful for that.

Thanks so much for weighing in, and for your words of kindness. It means a lot.

Nothing new lately, except that my son has now blown off my wife's last three dinner invites, claiming to be too sick or tired. He had a cold last weekend (he said) while I was at my mom's, and he refused her offer to drop by with soup and cold medicine.

Yesterday she called the landline (because, evidently, he wasn't answering his cell). I answered. She hesitated briefly, then asked if the kid was home. I said I'd see if I could get him for her, and I knocked on his door, handed him the phone, and asked him to return it when he was done. He came out, at most, two minutes later -- more like one -- and handed me the phone. I asked if he was going to dinner with her, and he said no. (I'm sure that's why she called -- I mean, she wasn't going to interrupt her work day just to say hi).

Hearing her voice for the first time in two weeks wasn't easy for me, either. It was like she was just "some caller," and I happened to be the clod answering the phone -- she really didn't acknowledge me at all, not even with a "hi." I was polite, not in any way gruff or cold, but not at all inviting.

Next week we those have meetings scheduled with two co-parenting counselors. All I can do is try to "pull back," per the 180, but I'm not sure how successful I can be at hiding the anger and pain. ("Hi, I'm Smoky, and this is my wife, who's fucking an alcoholic womanizer and serial cheater. Say hi, dear!")

Hey brother, good to hear from you. How are the little steps coming? More time with your son? How's the uke, has it arrived?

As to the future ex Mrs Smokey........we all strive for indifference, but wow, is it hard. It's why we have our "distractions". If we are really lucky and we truly focus, eventually the distractions become a passion. The passion will help complete us. We incorporate it into our existence and by then, the WW is an XW and no longer creating a drag on the new us.

If an asteroid were to knock the moon out of it's orbit and sends it crashing to the earth, she won't be the one you want to spend your last moments with!

Seriously though, glad to hear your doing better.

Hell, look forward to the meeting. Back straight, chest out and chin up! You miss the woman you thought you married, not the one who will meet with.

Don't believe me, reread your own description of who she picked and tell me if you would marry a woman with her qualities!

strength

5454real:

Hey brother, good to hear from you. How are the little steps coming? More time with your son? How's the uke, has it arrived?

Little to report on those fronts. I'll pick up the uke in a week (if I can afford to pay it all off). My son is even more withdrawn lately -- saying that he's sick; mostly he's been sleeping. Just about the only times I see him are at meals and when he's on the computer.

Believe he's getting together with his mom today for, of all things, an eye doctor visit. I snooped his texts again -- she keeps telling him she loves and misses him, but he's not reciprocating.

Had lunch with an old work friend yesterday. She'd been in a similar boat, years ago -- hubby was boning the next-door neighbor, who was "really unattractive and not at all smart," she said. I'd like to believe all our wayward spouses trade down....

As to the future ex Mrs Smokey........we all strive for indifference, but wow, is it hard. It's why we have our "distractions". If we are really lucky and we truly focus, eventually the distractions become a passion. The passion will help complete us. We incorporate it into our existence and by then, the WW is an XW and no longer creating a drag on the new us.

I can only hope this will be the case. At the moment, she's really my only passion -- which I know is pointless.

If an asteroid were to knock the moon out of it's orbit and sends it crashing to the earth, she won't be the one you want to spend your last moments with!

If that happens, I hope the only survivor is "H."

Seriously though, glad to hear your doing better.

That's questionable....

Hell, look forward to the meeting. Back straight, chest out and chin up! You miss the woman you thought you married, not the one who will meet with.

Don't believe me, reread your own description of who she picked and tell me if you would marry a woman with her qualities!

I'd like to believe I wouldn't marry a woman with her current taste in men, anyway. Other than that, I'm not ready for the "Why would I want *her*?" mindset. It's not that she's not the woman I thought I married -- after 27 years, how could she be? But clearly she's not even the woman I thought was living with me six months ago. I don't know if it's that she's changed, exactly, but she's really let herself be taken over by, well, aliens, but also the core problems she's been trying to run away from all these years. Regardless of whether I'm in the mix or not, she's not going to get her shit together, even a little, unless she addresses those things in a meaningful way.

Given those rather awful issues, I've been asked by a couple different people if I think she's even capable of the kind of love that a long-term relationship requires. The answer is... I don't know. I *think* so, but she's really too screwed up, at least right now....

Thanks again.

[This message edited by Smoky at 11:42 AM, January 19th (Saturday)]

Thinking about you Smoky. Hope you've been able to find some measure of peace these days as hard as it is.

Stay strong.

MsSunshine:

Thinking about you Smoky. Hope you've been able to find some measure of peace these days as hard as it is.

Stay strong.

Hi, Ms.:

Thanks for the kind wishes.

It's been a hard few days, partly because I've been by myself almost the whole time, but mainly because weekends are -- I assume -- the bulk of my wife's sex and social life. It wouldn't surprise me if she were *living* with "H" already, because she said, on the night she lowered the boom, that she has a place lined up "temporarily." (Who jumps from one long-term, serious relationship to another? It's nuts.) In fact, that night I said, "What kind of life are you expecting to get out of this transition? What is it you're looking for?" This is her verbatim response: "I think the possibility of leaving this area or... maybe I *am* gonna get hurt, and I'm gonna have to be self-sufficient." Notice the lack of my question being answered... and how strange the response was. But also, it makes me wonder where she's moving, and if "H" is going with her -- I believe he's already sold his house, and it's not like he couldn't move his business a million miles away....

Everybody says she's in a fog, she has no idea what she's doing, and she's making terrible decisions that are going to haunt her -- not least of which is her choice of sex partner: an addictive, narcissistic, cock-driven predator. She's the only one who doesn't know it and can't see it -- except maybe the friends she's confiding in: people who have no emotional stake in our marriage and who don't really know me, so they figure I must be some bozo who's getting what he deserves. (I mean, I just *assume* as much. I don't know what they really think.)

People say *she's* getting what *she* deserves -- small comfort there -- but also that *he* will get what *he* deserves. But, as I've said, I think he's gonna die peacefully at 87 with a smile on his weenie, while I, who at least *try* to treat people well, will just keep suffering. God, I hate this guy. Really hate him.

I don't know what to think of myself for thinking this, but I almost hope that he slaps my wife. Just once. Or dumps some serious verbal abuse on her. Just to get her seeing what she's involved with. Obviously I don't want her to be *injured*, but I want her to see that she's being harmed. You know? I don't quite know how to reconcile this particular feeling.

I suppose I should be ashamed about this, too, but I'm not pleased that my son was with her on Saturday, even at the eye doctor's. I want him to be happy. And her. I really do. But I also want him to be really, really mad at her right now and not wanting to be with her. And I want her panicking about their relationship. Spite? I don't know. Maybe. Maybe I just want her panicking about *our* relationship, but she seems perfectly happy about it now. I mean, she wants zero part of me -- I can't believe she even agreed to the co-parenting sessions. So it's hard to deal with feeling these negative things toward the people I love most.

How come other women divorce their husbands because (a) their husbands are assholes, or (b) their husbands cheat on them, or (c) their husbands don't love them, or (d) all of the above, but *my* wife is divorcing me despite *none* of that being true? Again, I definitely claim responsibility for my part in our marital problems, but nothing I've done, or haven't done, should have led to my wife doing what she's doing -- either the affair, or, especially, calling it quits.

Also, my therapist is sick today -- I really coulda used the hour. The appointment was not rescheduled -- I'll just go next week... which is something that pisses me off about therapists: If *they're* unable to make an appointment, they don't even really have to give you notice; if *you* can't make it (with less than 24 hours' notice), you pay the full cost.

Tomorrow my wife and I are supposed to meet for co-parenting counseling. That's gonna be tough. I hear what 5454real said: "Hell, look forward to the meeting. Back straight, chest out and chin up You miss the woman you thought you married, not the one who will meet with." Believe me, I try to be strong, but I keep having fantasies that she comes back to me and to the marriage, says she can't keep hurting me like this, etc. When does that stop?

As I've said a billion times, I just want the *hope* to stop.

5454real keeps urging me to do stuff for myself, and rightly so... but the fact is, I really don't know a lot of people where I live, and I'm not the type to just go to "gatherings." My most local friends are an hour and a half away, and they have their own lives. (One of my closest friends, for instance, was married for the first time this summer... *on my wife's and my 27th anniversary*.) I have a sister who's local, but she's embroiled in the latest dramatic chapter of life with one of her two (particularly awful) sons. (Plus... ain't got no spending cash....)

About all I've done for myself the last couple of days is go for walks for about 40 minutes. It's good to get a sweat going and all, and I play an audiobook on my iPod... but I'm still at that point where I just can't concentrate. The hopeful and awful thoughts keep breaking in. (Plus I get shinsplints.) And next weekend... I probably won't be able to afford the entire ukulele, which is kind of a drag... but I expect to meet with at least one friend while I stay at my mom's.

Also, I haven't talked much about this, but the money situation is horrendous. I mean, yeah, I've *mentioned* it -- it's a key reason my wife left -- but she contributed $80 in cash, two days after she left; and another $200 for "car insurance and the cell phones" the next week, but not a nickel since. So the cars right now are uninsured. I get paid sometime this week, but 40% of that goes right to rent (i.e., the half of the rent that I haven't paid yet). Since I'm doing contract work, there's no tax taken out, so I need to put *something* away... but I don't think I can, because I've got to pay those expenses. So it just might be even uglier, come April 15, 2014.

I see my wife tomorrow, but it feels like the timing won't be good to ask her for dough. My opinion, though, is that she should at least pay half our son's expenses (since he's not working at all), and really, she ought to pay a good portion of the rent, since all her stuff is still here except for some clothes -- I mean, shouldn't she pay for "storage"? Anyway, I don't want to act all demanding and snarky... nor do I want to plead. So I'm not sure where to go with this.

I'm starting to worry about the co-parenting counseling appointment tonight. I figured on going in there and just staying on topic -- i.e., our son -- but then it occurred to me that the guy would ask some questions about the marriage, perhaps along the lines of "Do you love each other?" and "Are you sure this marriage is over?" and "Do you want to save this marriage?"

Obviously, my wife and I have different answers to at least two of those. What I would want to say is, "I want to save this marriage, and I want my wife to come back more than anything. I'm fully aware that the last time we talked, she said, 'We should work on ending the marriage,' and that she disagreed with my reasons for saving it, but that doesn't change how I feel or what I want. My biggest problem is that even given what she has said and done, I can't stop hoping. She's the most important person in the world, and I truly love her very deeply and with all my heart."

First, yes, I do remember all the horrible stuff she's said and done lately, and I'm definitely aware of how it's affected me. But I guess I'm concerned about how I'm going to appear. "Strong" does not come to mind. "Desperate" and "pathetic" sure do, but what I said above really is how I feel. I also want to keep my anger, outrage, pain, etc., out of the equation, but I don't know that I can.

And I worry that this would be counterproductive, given that I specifically told her -- when I suggested co-parenting counseling in the first place -- that this is *not* marriage counseling and that I wasn't trying to rope her into a marriage-counseling situation, and that this is about us being able to communicate with our son and parent him effectively, now that we're apart.

She knows I'm miserable and angry, and she knows I love her -- I feel like I shouldn't keep saying those things, but the fact is, this is too big a loss.

Any thoughts on this?

I specifically told her when I suggested co-parenting counseling in the first place that this is *not* marriage counseling and that I wasn't trying to rope her into a marriage-counseling situation

This is what you told her and you need to stick by it. If the counselor asks about your M then at the most you say "We're here because we're getting D and we need to learn to co-parent living separately"

That's it and no more.

Your WW is not interested in R so every time you discuss your feelings with her she feels like you are "hanging on" and her instinct right now to pull away and withdraw even more. You need to detach for your own health.

Brandon:

I specifically told her when I suggested co-parenting counseling in the first place that this is *not* marriage counseling and that I wasn't trying to rope her into a marriage-counseling situation

This is what you told her and you need to stick by it. If the counselor asks about your M then at the most you say "We're here because we're getting D and we need to learn to co-parent living separately"

That's it and no more.

Your WW is not interested in R so every time you discuss your feelings with her she feels like you are "hanging on" and her instinct right now to pull away and withdraw even more. You need to detach for your own health.

That "detaching" thing... how do you do that, again?

Anyway, okay, lessee... yesterday my therapy appointment was canceled -- sick shrink. Today I met with a psychiatrist who also happens to be a therapist. I'm already thinking of switching to him -- not because my therapist was sick, but because I'm just sort of... not feelin' it. I'll give her another appointment or two. Anyway, he's gonna increase my antidepressant by 50% and give me Ambien. Yay!

Showed up for the co-parenting appointment about 15 minutes early. Door was locked. Wife showed up a bit later. Gave me a hug -- first time since 12/10. Said, "How ya doin' -- well, not great, I know..." and she trailed off. How nice: a pity hug.

We "chatted," mostly about our son. She also announced that she's found a place -- a studio-sized cottage one town over, for half what our apartment costs. She moves in on the first.

Our "talk" was polite and not at all hostile. Wouldn't call it friendly, though. She didn't want to be there. I didn't want to be there.

Anyway, the counselor didn't show up -- I called, and he said I'd never called to confirm. I had, though, so he offered to see us *tomorrow* night, no charge. So I see my wife on consecutive nights for the first time since... 12/9-10.

She handed me $140 in cash. (She had at least $200 on her; what's she doing, walking around with $200, unless she'd meant to give me some?) I had asked her for money... though I didn't specify what for. I had *wanted* to ask for at least $800 for our son, plus the fact that she's using the apartment place for storage, but now that she's got her own place....

At least she didn't mention "H."

She did mention -- I wanted to smack her -- that she acquired a Kindle for "only $100." For crying out loud, my kid and I can't afford *food* right now, and our car insurance has lapsed, but she buys a Kindle. And she knows nothing about stuff like that.

I'm vaguely proud of myself for not being hostile, though. Doesn't mean I feel good or anything, though.

Once we knew the counselor wasn't gonna show, she asked to come by the apartment and pick up some stuff. As I drove home, I mostly yelled, "Why the fuck do you have to *do* this? Why?" Course, she was in *her* car and didn't hear me.

When I got home, I told my son that his mom would be here soon, and that she has a new place. When she arrived, I guess he said hi, but went into his room and closed the door.

I did pretty well at not following her around like a ninny. I don't know what she packed, but she spent enough time in the bedroom where she had to have seen (though maybe not noticed) my copy of "How to Survive the Loss of a Love."

When she left, she didn't say goodbye to me (let alone hug me). So I really look forward to our session tomorrow, when we'll make more small-talk and I'll try to freak out too much....

I feel like I shouldn't keep saying those things,

Youre right, bro....you shouldnt.

Maybe if you reread the "healing library"....and everything you can find on the 180 process...then read the 180 material again...

I understand your not wanting a divorce....i truly do....i know i didnt...but...time for you to "fake it till you make it"....180, man....do it!!!

Bufffalo

Buffalo:

I feel like I shouldn't keep saying those things,

Youre right, bro....you shouldnt.

Maybe if you reread the "healing library"....and everything you can find on the 180 process...then read the 180 material again...

I understand your not wanting a divorce....i truly do....i know i didnt...but...time for you to "fake it till you make it"....180, man....do it!!!

I wish *I* understood why I don't want a divorce....

I was a good boy last night and didn't tell her I love her, and I daresay I'll manage not to say it tonight, either. No heartfelt letters, no phone calls, basically no contact except that which I can't avoid.

Because the counselor last night had to reschedule for tonight, I bumped *tomorrow's* appointment to 2/7, I think. Poor thing couldn't be asked to see me *three* nights in a row! People would talk!

But if you're thinking I'm being kind of stupid about the 180, you're right -- I've been meaning to review it every day, and I've sort of failed for the last four days or so. Not today, though.

The 180 is really hard at first. It requires you to change the way you interact with your spouse. It forces you to detach in a way that is completely unnatural to some people. I failed at it a lot at first too. Just know that it does get easier over time.

It requires a lot of self discipline at first but if you keep working at it, the result is strength and clarity of thought for you. It even helps to ease the pain over time. I was an absolute mess when I registered here in September and that was after I had six weeks to start processing the pain. I still hurt but it is dull now and not constant anymore. I have the 180 and a ton of great support both here and in real life for that.

h0peless:

The 180 is really hard at first. It requires you to change the way you interact with your spouse. It forces you to detach in a way that is completely unnatural to some people. I failed at it a lot at first too. Just know that it does get easier over time.

It requires a lot of self discipline at first but if you keep working at it, the result is strength and clarity of thought for you. It even helps to ease the pain over time. I was an absolute mess when I registered here in September and that was after I had six weeks to start processing the pain. I still hurt but it is dull now and not constant anymore. I have the 180 and a ton of great support both here and in real life for that.

So far, my problem with the 180 is actually *remembering* the stuff in it.

I'm at about that six-week mark, and I can't imagine how much worse off I'd be if it weren't for the people "both here and in real life." It's still awful, and I practically long for the day when it's only a dull, occasional ache.

Last night was really rough. We had our first co-parenting counseling meeting. The fact is, I don't know how much we need this, because my son now seems to be coping pretty well. And the fact is, it's *not* like he's going to have two homes in the near future -- or, more accurately, a home with each parent. My wife's moving into a tiny cottage in about a week, and I don't even know if there'd be a separate room for him to sleep in; meanwhile, I don't know when, but I anticipate moving 70 miles away... into my mom's house. I don't want to do that. Much as I love my mom, it would still be *her* place, not mine, and I'd feel like a putz, at least until managing to save up enough for first-and-last on a new place (however long *that* would take). My son would be welcome there, and would have his own space, but he, too, would be 70 miles away, both from his mom and his friends. He's pretty set on not leaving the area... and toward that end he might be eligible for low-cost "youth housing" through the county -- it'd cost about $500 a month (assuming he had a job), and he'd have to have a roommate -- who, it turns out, could easily be his best friend, the one person he doesn't want to move 70 miles away from. (He doesn't drive.)

Anyway, the counselor said, at one point, that my wife smiled a lot more than I did (though the smile wasn't reaching her eyes). What he was getting at was that we obviously feel very different about the separation. I was able not to, like, suddenly burst into tears, but I didn't hang on by much. I didn't want to talk about it, so I was as vague as I could be, but he wanted details -- not of the marriage, but of how I feel. So I was pretty angry with myself for taking the bait, but I said, "The split is not mutual. I absolutely don't want it, and I feel that if she came back, it would be to someone who's working hard on himself both in and out of therapy, and who would work hard on the marriage, both in and out of counseling. This person is more important than anyone or anything else in my life." Something like that. I didn't talk about how awful I feel or anything, but clearly I had trouble "maintaining," and I felt like a major-league wuss.

The guy asked my wife, "Did you hear anything just now that surprises you?" She shook her head. I don't remember her answer, exactly, but it was really blase. Something about, "It's hard to see how much he's hurting, but there's nothing I can do to help." I thought, "Um... yeah... there is...." But I didn't say it, because it wasn't marriage counseling.

The guy pointed to me and said, "I've been in that chair" -- i.e., in the process of a divorce he didn't want. Weirdly, that didn't help, because it felt like, "Well, hey, just get over it." I don't think he meant it that way, but that's how it felt. He also talked a lot about the "new reality," and the new reality sucks balls. But otherwise, he seemed pretty much on the ball. I wish he hadn't described himself as a "recovering alcoholic," though. Not that I have anything *against* alcoholics (indeed, half of my in-laws, whom I do love, *are* alcoholics), and, indeed, "recovering" is a *good* thing... but "H" is *also* a recovering alcoholic. Gives my wife even more reason to, I dunno, trust recovering alcoholics. Maybe I'm not articulating that very well; it's just yet another thing to feel not-right about, and it has nothing to do with the counselor himself. (Indeed, his approach seems really different from anybody else I've seen, and now I'm even thinking of switching to *him*; I don't know, though.)

After the session my wife handed me a bag containing her fucking Kindle that she bought so I could ask my son to put stuff on it and show her how to use it. (We have wireless; she doesn't, in her new place or at work, so I really don't see the point.) She then gave me another hug -- two in two days! Whee! -- and, obviously fearing that I would try to kiss her, turned her head slightly to the left, as she did on 12/23, after our marriage counseling session. I wasn't gonna kiss her, but it pissed me off anyway -- the standard line about, "Why, we mustn't cheat on 'H'!" (the fuckwad). I figure it's really not so much about actively not wanting me to kiss her (though I'm sure she actively *doesn't* want me to) as not wanting me to think that if she lets me, it means she wants to get back together. That's also a pisser, 'cause she has great lips.

Of course, I held on a little too long, then just said "Bye." Couldn't even keep it in till I got to the car. She could tell I was gonna lose it -- which I hadn't done in years. I'm not a big crier -- I find it physically painful, and it never makes me feel better -- but I was pretty much weeping all the way to the grocery store, at which time I had to sit in the car for a few minutes to compose myself. Mostly I kept saying, "Why? Why?" like I'm Mr. Bill or something. Crying and driving: bad mix, like "Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms."

I haven't decided whether it's good or bad that we'll be doing these meetings weekly. My guess: bad. Again, she was just so matter-of-fact about the split. She acknowledged that she has "pain," but she seems perfectly pleased not to have to see me every day. I don't expect anything different, but let's just say it would've been nice to feel missed, even a little.

I'll be out of town this weekend -- back at Mom's (because she's basically making me go there every couple of weeks because -- now without Dad after 62 years -- being alone is really taking it out of her plus, if I can pay off my uke, I will) -- and I mildly expect my wife to come over and try to move some stuff out, if not over the weekend, then soon (as she's supposed to move to her new place on the first).

Don't know how, but I want very much *not* to help her move. I know she'll be taking some furniture (not the bed, apparently), and she'd need help with that, but... maybe I'm being a big ol' hairy baby, but I have no interest in making it easier for her to move out. My stated reason -- entirely true -- will be, "It's too hard for me to deal with." But the fact is, I absolutely don't condone, like, *any* decision she's made over the last few months, and I have no pity for her. So call it spite. I can live with that.

I guess I should be mildly relieved that at least she's not moving in with "H." At the moment.

So far, my problem with the 180 is actually *remembering* the stuff in it.

Rome wasn't built in a day. When I was six weeks out, I had a hard time remembering which way was up. It takes practice. You will fail. Just keep practicing and it will become more natural. Some of the steps actually start to fall into place eventually. In the mean time, just do your best. Don't kick yourself too hard for not being perfect right away. You'll get there eventually.

I didn't talk about how awful I feel or anything, but clearly I had trouble "maintaining," and I felt like a major-league wuss.

That sounds a lot like my conversation with the nice lady at the STD clinic a few weeks after Dday. I ended up crying on her shoulder. You're going to have these sorts of reactions from time to time and it's OK. It is unfortunate that it happened in front of your WW but it's going to happen sometimes, especially if you have to be around her for these sessions. What you're feeling are normal, human emotions and no matter how ashamed you might feel right now, it is healthy for you to let yourself feel them.

I wish he hadn't described himself as a "recovering alcoholic," though. Not that I have anything *against* alcoholics (indeed, half of my in-laws, whom I do love, *are* alcoholics), and, indeed, "recovering" is a *good* thing... but "H" is *also* a recovering alcoholic. Gives my wife even more reason to, I dunno, trust recovering alcoholics.

You're over-analyzing things right now, and I understand because I was doing the same thing a few months ago. Your wife is in such a fucked up place at the moment that she would probably latch onto just about anything if it made her feel good. The OM is just a symptom of her fuckeduppedness. He is a worthless sack of shit. He has less value as a human being than the tick I picked off of my dog's ass this morning.

Hang in there, Smoky. You're still in for a hell of a ride but know that if you work, keep a positive attitude and take care of yourself, you'll get through it. You still have your integrity and in my opinion, that is the most important thing a person can have. One thing that my IC had me do in the early stages was to start a list of the things I liked about myself and to add to it as things came to me. It was hard at first but I realized that a lot of the things I really liked about myself, I suppressed because STBX thought they were annoying or stupid or whatever. That exercise really helped me find myself in a difficult time.

Smoky living with someone who's heart is somewhere else is brutal.

When I was trying to reconcile with my WH after several weeks I knew he was missing the OW. I asked him to man up and make a decision - her or be in our marriage 100% - because I couldn't live like that. I never wanted someone who didn't want me. Later that night he came to me and said," I heard what you said. I'm going to be strong and make a decision. I choose her."

That was the last night I raged and sobbed and begged him to leave right then. I didn't realize what a gift I had just been given. The relief I felt four days later when he moved out made me realize I was now on the road to recovery. My healing no longer depended on him. There was pain but no limbo. My path was clear and I just had to put one foot in front of the other and do all the things they tell us to do at SI.

Within a week of moving out he came back to me sobbing and begging for another chance at our marriage. I was not opening up the door to that pain again. I told him I needed a year to heal and to obliterate the old marriage. And if we both worked on ourselves perhaps there could be a future for us.

His response was to start womanizing again. So, I was right to move on and protect myself.

One thing I learned is that even though you're on the roller coaster, you can still have joy and laughter in your life with the people that really matter. And your bonds with those people grow deeper. And that is a real gift.

I understand your desire to be with the woman you once knew but she's not there. And you don't want to be with someone who doesn't deserve you - someone who is not all in the marriage with the same desire for true intimacy. Stop giving your thoughts and your heart to her. You don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you.

As someone earlier said, Fake it....fake it til you make it. Tell your head what to do and your heart will follow.

I hate this pain that you and others here are in. I've got my fingers crossed that you find that resolve and strength and of course, peace.

h0peless:

I didn't talk about how awful I feel or anything, but clearly I had trouble "maintaining," and I felt like a major-league wuss.

That sounds a lot like my conversation with the nice lady at the STD clinic a few weeks after Dday. I ended up crying on her shoulder. You're going to have these sorts of reactions from time to time and it's OK. It is unfortunate that it happened in front of your WW but it's going to happen sometimes, especially if you have to be around her for these sessions. What you're feeling are normal, human emotions and no matter how ashamed you might feel right now, it is healthy for you to let yourself feel them.

I know it's normal (and thanks for the words of sympathy -- I appreciate it). It's just a far cry from appearing "strong" and "detached," or whatever.

Meanwhile, I never checked into STDs... if only because the last time my wife and I did anything remotely sexual, it was over a month before I learned about the affair (and she left).

"H" is *also* a recovering alcoholic. Gives my wife even more reason to, I dunno, trust recovering alcoholics.

You're over-analyzing things right now, and I understand because I was doing the same thing a few months ago. Your wife is in such a fucked up place at the moment that she would probably latch onto just about anything if it made her feel good. The OM is just a symptom of her fuckeduppedness. He is a worthless sack of shit. He has less value as a human being than the tick I picked off of my dog's ass this morning.

No argument there. It's just easier to direct hatred at that man than at my wife. And you're definitely in the ballpark regarding her fuckedupness. I mean... she is indeed a good, kind, fine person, but her upbringing and family issues are *so* poisonous:

* Dad: a food addict and incompetent parent. I'm convinced that he facilitated his kids' molestations somehow. And he liked to watch his wife have sex with other guys -- it's disturbing that my wife actually *knows* about this.

* Mom: an incompetent parent, a not-at-all-recovering alcoholic, too drunk/oblivious/lazy/in denial/etc. to even try to stop her kids' rapes. Exerted discipline by waiting to explode and beat the shit out of a kid.

* A grandfather who, I'm told, was "probably deep in the closet," so he'd show how manly he was by beating his wife and kids.

* And a grandmother who let the grandkids take advantage of her while she tried to protect them from their parents. But she was addicted to painkillers, and she also cheated on her (admittedly awful) husband.

So how could that whole family *not* have a skewed, sometimes dangerously unhealthy perspective of life, love, sexuality, parenting, handling problems, etc.?

By the time she viewed *my* parents as role models (and more like parents to her than her actual parents), she must have been too damaged to see that true, steadfast love between two people is something to be cherished, nurtured, and constantly worked on -- not discounted, minimized, and discarded.

My apologies in advance, because this is truly revolting: The molester's M.O. was to "work" on a kid until he or she would come -- even more abusive and heinous than if he'd just done his thing until *he* got off. Inflicting pleasure caused them all even more confusion, shame, self-disgust, and emotional pain.

So yeah, there's a serious fucked-up quotient going on here. Basically, I'm paying for my wife's (admittedly awful) past. I would love to believe that she'll address this stuff in therapy, but there's nothing in her background to suggest that she won't keep running away from it, perhaps to a series of further "H's."

Hang in there, Smoky. You're still in for a hell of a ride but know that if you work, keep a positive attitude and take care of yourself, you'll get through it. You still have your integrity and in my opinion, that is the most important thing a person can have. One thing that my IC had me do in the early stages was to start a list of the things I liked about myself and to add to it as things came to me. It was hard at first but I realized that a lot of the things I really liked about myself, I suppressed because STBX thought they were annoying or stupid or whatever. That exercise really helped me find myself in a difficult time.

One thing I have lots and lots of trouble with is a positive attitude, even when my wife *isn't* in the process of divorcing me. It helps to have friends and relatives tell me good things about myself (which I believe to varying extents...). Exercise is tough, because right now it's just walking (and I didn't have time today or yesterday, due to work and appointments. I really hate exercising just to exercise, but I'm way to out-of-shape to play ball. I'll figure something out.

Thanks for your words of support. I'm sorry you've been through this. The good news is that you've still got plenty of time to find something that works a lot better.

MsSunshine:

Smoky living with someone who's heart is somewhere else is brutal.

I believe you. I have to think it's worse in a lot of ways than having that person leave. I'm thinking here of the "Losing you is awful enough, but I won't *share* you" thing.

When I was trying to reconcile with my WH after several weeks I knew he was missing the OW. I asked him to man up and make a decision - her or be in our marriage 100% - because I couldn't live like that. I never wanted someone who didn't want me. Later that night he came to me and said," I heard what you said. I'm going to be strong and make a decision. I choose her."

That was the last night I raged and sobbed and begged him to leave right then. I didn't realize what a gift I had just been given. The relief I felt four days later when he moved out made me realize I was now on the road to recovery. My healing no longer depended on him. There was pain but no limbo. My path was clear and I just had to put one foot in front of the other and do all the things they tell us to do at SI.

I'm glad you were able to view this as a gift. I'm definitely not there yet.

Within a week of moving out he came back to me sobbing and begging for another chance at our marriage. I was not opening up the door to that pain again. I told him I needed a year to heal and to obliterate the old marriage. And if we both worked on ourselves perhaps there could be a future for us.

I don't foresee my wife asking me for another chance. For one thing, she knows already that I'll give it to her, but not without the conditions I've stated: (a) No more "H" of any kind (i.e., affairs, contact with "H," pursuing attractions, etc.); (b) complete honesty, transparency, accountability, and disclosure; and (c) working on herself and our marriage, in and out of counseling. I would hold myself to the same standards and work at least as hard. But she has no fear that I'll take that off the table, and I'm not ready to do so.

His response was to start womanizing again. So, I was right to move on and protect myself.

What you *really* did right was see that you were *able* to move on and protect yourself. I have no doubt that so much of it was just killing you, but you had the right mindset. Again... I'm just not there.

One thing I learned is that even though you're on the roller coaster, you can still have joy and laughter in your life with the people that really matter. And your bonds with those people grow deeper. And that is a real gift.

I figure the joy and laughter are somewhere around the corner. For now, I manage to link up with friends, and that really helps. They're all in my mom's neck of the woods, but they're making time for me, and that's better than ducks in June.

I understand your desire to be with the woman you once knew but she's not there. And you don't want to be with someone who doesn't deserve you - someone who is not all in the marriage with the same desire for true intimacy. Stop giving your thoughts and your heart to her. You don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you.

I want want want to be able to feel that way. I really do. I really want to feel able to throw a permanent "Go fuck yourself" at her.

As someone earlier said, Fake it....fake it til you make it. Tell your head what to do and your heart will follow.

I hate this pain that you and others here are in. I've got my fingers crossed that you find that resolve and strength and of course, peace.

As always, thank you so much for your kindness and concern. I wish the same for everybody here, too. This awful stuff just shouldn't happen. It's just plain wrong.

Why the hell are people so blasé about adultery? Does anybody here think adultery *shouldn't* be a criminal offense? Even without religious restrictions, we have to get marriage licenses, which are a sort of contract that at least *implies* fidelity. Not that I wish for my wife to be in jail, but....

I hear ya, Smoky. I know it takes time to get to that place. Those of us that have been there are just so desperate to try and save others from that pain we also suffered that we throw out all these things we think helped us. But I get that it takes time.

My story is also similar to yours in that my husband was from an abusive past and I believed that my love could save him. I come from a very strong and loving family and I had a wonderful childhood filled with happy memories. My family had some huge challenges and it wasn't all a walk in the park, but my parents modeled how to handle those adversities and were always there for us with love. My heart ached for the abuse my husband suffered but I learned I couldn't save him....he had to do it for himself.

I will always love that little boy in my husband that was so hurt and vulnerable. I would go to the end of the earth for that child if he wanted to feed, nourish and heal that child, too. But he didn't. He was willing to let that be the excuse for his behavior, but he wasn't interested in doing something about it. He wasn't interested in seeking help to become the man he could be.

It makes no sense for me to sacrifice myself when he is not in it, too. That child will remain there in him ignored and forgotten by him. I'm sad for him but I'm not willing to give up any more of my happiness for him.

I guess I relay this part of my story because I can relate to the understanding of your wife's broken past. But, I want you to know you can't save her by yourself. She has to be on board, too.

((((Smoky))))

This is all new for me.Two weeks ago he left computer on I went to get on a message came on from her.I was shocked stunned he said it was an old college mate they where telling they loved each other.But they just chat.So the other day I go on his computer skype of all places.I'll back up here he spent 4 months in Afganstan this year.So thats how we talked.well he also chatted with 2 more women and they sent all kind of pics.Then there was a Lt. in his office I found pics of them.I was crushed I called him at work he came home just said they all chatted I'm not stupid!!I said you don't send pictures and talk like that I havent slept.Sorry I rambled I"'m in shock.

MsSunshine:

I guess I relay this part of my story because I can relate to the understanding of your wife's broken past. But, I want you to know you can't save her by yourself. She has to be on board, too.

To be honest, I doubt she wants my help in saving her at all. I don't know whether she's on board at all.

She said that the stuff I've brought up to her about her family, and even some of her parenting issues that those horrors led to, "helped me see how much crap there is to untangle." Do I have faith that she's going to face these problems straight on? Not really. It's not her M.O. Running away is. My attempt to "help" her was in the form of essentially begging her, for her own sake, to address this stuff directly.

Meanwhile, she says, "I know I am not coming back home, but we have to be a family. Things will be okay with all of us if we keep making an effort and take each day and event as it comes. I know it's easier said than done."

First: Yeah, thanks for rubbing my nose in the "not coming back home" part, but mainly, it sounds like she's quoting some therapist, or saying what she thinks is the stuff to say, but it's all fluff.

Now I get to look forward to her moving her stuff out, and into a new, very tiny place next weekend. God knows she expects me to help her. Would I be petty in refusing, on the basis that I don't condone, like, *anything* she's been doing? The other thing is, I don't think I *want* to be there when she removes all her stuff (and some of *our* stuff) -- it's too hard.

The other thing is, her decision pretty much forces me out of town, away from her *and* my son. So I'm *really* not pleased.

How the hell can someone reject such a high level of love, respect, and intimacy that she's *always* gotten? It's almost as though she's "moving on" for the sake of "moving on" -- which is still a euphemism for running away.

I *really* hope I don't feel this shitty in a year. I hope I don't care *what* she does by then.

[This message edited by Smoky at 12:13 AM, January 27th (Sunday)]