SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hey RBB,

Sorry that you are down today.

The sexual issues can be tough, especially when the perceived attraction is an issue. Give it a little time.

Your WW is still foggy. She is going through her "mourning" state, as disgusting as it sounds. Keep working on yourself, and do not coddle her; it has to be the other way around.

I am currently reconciling with my WW. It has been 16 months since D-day, but only 5 months since she has defogged. Those 10-11 months of limbo were the longest of my life.

Literally a couple of weeks ago, we were talking about this. She can now see how skewed her perception on reality was. She used to get frustrated with me during the first 10 months when I would tell her she wasn't truly remorseful, and just didn't "get it". She would have sworn on a stack of bibles that she did understand the depths of damage inflicted on me and our family. But she didn't.

It was only when I finally had enough and contacted a lawyer. I was ready to blow up 23 years with this woman; I didn't care anymore. It was then that she woke up.

She tells me now when she reads on SI(she reads my posts) how she understands when we talk about this fog. What makes clear sense to her today did not make sense 6 months ago. It was almost like flipping a switch.

And everyone's story is different, friend. Your WW may emerge today, tomorrow, next year, or never. I hope it is sooner than later. But I can assure you that comforting her will prolong the defogging. You will know when it is true remorse--it is ALL IN THE ACTIONS. Her primary drive will be to make you heal; she will put her needs last. Believe me, I've BTDT. I heard the same lines, experienced her depression, and so on.

It will get better. Just do not let your guard down. She has to EARN your trust and confidence back--and that takes a looooong time. Do not be in a rush to forgive; it has to come naturally.

Keep posting--I am glad you have made improvements since November. Good luck.

[This message edited by jb3199 at 12:09 PM, February 4th (Friday)]

Have to agree with JB. So far your wife's affair hasn't cost her a thing. You think about your love for her and the pain she has caused you. And when it gets to close to home for her. She just thinks about the OM. She doesn't respect you, because there has been no consequence to her actions. I would follow JBs lead. I just wouldn't wait 10 months or a year to do it.

RBB,

Just take one day at a time, don't rush on anything. I wouldn't place any pressure on the sexual aspect, transfer your energy and thoughts to caring for your beautiful daughter for the time being.

Valentines Day is coming up in just a little over a week, why don't you plan on a weekend away for the three of you? Don't center it around any specific endearments towards your WS during the weekend, just keep it nonchalant with a friendship card for her and a special card for your daughter.

Once...

Generally speaking, women are driven much more by "feelings" and imaginings than men. What often happens over a relationship is that women lose respect for their husbands, sometimes for real failures other times just due to a guy's easy going nature and deference to his wife on inconsequential matters. The woman does not see an assertive side to her husband, she doesn't see other women giving him the eye, she doesn't see other men deferring to or respecting her husband. Often, a woman who does not see these things will subconsciously devalue her husband. Oddly enough, a man who helps out "too much" around the house will also often be devalued as "not man enough." This is stereotypically what leads women into the mindset which makes affairs a possibility. There are ton of exceptions, but your wife's lack of sexual interest in you indicates that you are living the stereotypical situation I've just described.

Generally, once a woman loses sexual desire for her husband due to her long term devaluation of him as a suitable mate, it ain't coming back. Ever. However, in theory at least, you may have a possibility of getting it back by raising your sex rank relative to that of your wife.

Start bodybuilding, update your wardrobe, learn "game." You do know what "game" is, right? Become mysterious. Your wife doesn't need to know what you're doing all the time (although you DO need to know what she's up to at all times). Flirt with women in front of her. Be dominant. If that stuff doesn't work, you've got three options: divorce; open marriage; or a marriage that is sexually dead (all the hassle and none of the fun). I chose option 3 in my ignorance. Do as I say, not as I do.

[This message edited by palerider at 11:38 AM, February 5th (Saturday)]

had a long chat in a rental car while stuck in NJ traffic with WW last Friday evening, was a good conversation. I made my point acrossed to WW that I'm tired of hearing "sorry" and I'm done with her apologies and it's her action that counts. She admitted that she was in the fog previously and now has started to see the magnitude of the devastation and pain she has caused me and our marriage, and she's been reading books and internet forums specifics in helping a heal. There has been lots of hugs and kissed and "I love/miss you" from her.

I think it was a good constructive conversation. It made the both of us feel better about our marriage and perhaps a positive future. Unfortunately the focus went to her worse tooth pain of her life from a major root canal procedure in which she called it her "bad karma" for what she has done.

Sorry, but if all the Karma she gets is tooth pain, that's not enough! At least, that's what I'd think about my WH.

I'm so glad to hear that things are going better for you and your WW. AND, that you are focusing on you and your needs!

I ended my "panic driven" affection to her and I based my own happiness and sense of peace through God, myself, and my daughter.

\ This is wonderful!!

Thank you all for the support and great advice. here is my post V-Day update.

We're now in the process of seeking MC. She wants to "not think about it" and distract herself from the affair with activities. I want to not "sweep under the rug", and trying to openly communicate and face our marital issues but when we talk it's always the same issue over and over again, and for some reason it always leads to sex, and that bothers her quite a bit and we mostly ends our conversation badly. The main reason we're now seeking MC.

Since the OM was my wife's first love, there's immense amount of emotions and feeling she has(I wish I can use "had" instead) for him. I belive she still misses him. I also realized that on the sexual performance department I don't come even close what he can do for her. I know this is the kind of thought process I should steer clear of, but this is the reality and a confirmed fact. I'm so hurt and it almost feels like D-Day all over again.

I've openly discussed with my wife that on top of MC, I'm looking into sex therapy as well and wanted to know what she feels about it. She sort of has a bit of "it's too late for that, and nothing will help" attitude, and told me straight up that she's just not interested. I suffer from PE and she has put up with it for 9 years, and now she simply refuse to put up with it anymore and refuses all my attempts to work on it. I hate to sound like a sex addict but I belive it's an important part of any marriage and I really want to work on it to improve our sex life, she's just simply too depressed, too confused, too overwhelmed now to hear me out.

So here I am again, at my lowest, darkest place, feeling the gut wrenching pain.

RBBD,

I really want to work on it to improve our sex life, she's just simply too depressed, too confused, too overwhelmed now to hear me out.

In other words, it is still all about her.

I know the sexual aspect is important in your life, but the other issues(hers) are the main topic. She needs IC, not MC, to find out what the hell is wrong with her.

What is she doing for you? The words "I'm sorry" and "I missed you" followed by what? Arguements? Not wanting to talk about it?

Friend, she still has a long way to go. I'm sorry to say that to you. You've been going through what feels like an eternity, and now you feel low again like near D-day.

If you want to go to sexual therapy for yourself, then fine; but if you are thinking of doing this for her---forget it. You cannot work on fixing your shortcomings in the marriage until she commits to the marriage herself.

She is not committed at this point. She is still selfish--it is still about her. It seems like you may want to hyperbond, but she is unwilling. It just makes it that much more frustrating for you.

Is she THAT repulsed to have sex with you? If she is, the sex isn't the real issue. She would be betraying her "love" by enjoying sex with you. How twisted is that?

And it is THIS attitude of hers that should keep you in the process of detaching from her. Believe me, she has to KNOW what she will lose if she sees you are ready to walk. And even then she may not come around--but are you willing to live like this?

I don't like sounding negative, but she isn't getting to her core problems. She isn't remorseful. You have to have these things to even try to salvage your M.

Keep us posted.

(((rbbd)))

I'm looking into sex therapy as well and wanted to know what she feels about it. She sort of has a bit of "it's too late for that, and nothing will help" attitude, and told me straight up that she's just not interested. I suffer from PE and she has put up with it for 9 years, and now she simply refuse to put up with it anymore and refuses all my attempts to work on it.

I'm sorry rrbd, but this is an incredibly selfish attitude your wife has. How does she expect you to even try to R if she simply *refuses* to work on something so important to you and your marriage?

I'm sorry but I agree with jb3199 she cannot be totally committed to R OR totally remorseful or else she would be doing everything in her power to try to repair the devastating damage her A has caused.

I think she needs to have some IC along with MC for you both. The PE can be worked on and I feel really sad that she's refusing to do that.

You are in my thoughts and prayers (((rbbd)))

thanks for the great advice and another wake up call to 180. this whole infidelity thing has changed me from someone with adequate amount of self-esteem/respect and confidence to this pathetic loser that I am now. I hate to put myself down like this but it's just very hard today.

She's been IC'ing for years, and she's been taking treatment for depression, bi-polar, ADD. She tells me about her doctor's visit, and her doctor has constantly remind her about MC.

I know she's still in the fog, she openly admit that the OM is still someone in her heart and she probably still misses him, but I also know that there's definitely no contact and and she's seeking help and advice and counseling on how own. There's overwhelming large amount of issues she has to deal with, and I'm too. Looking for the right way to live with one another right now and it seems very hard to even function normally. The most sad things is that our young daughter is now picking things up, the tense atmosphere at home, the pain and seriousness on her parent's faces.

have to refocus on myself, my daughter, not my wife.

as for the sex part, I was given mix messages from her on multiple occations. Her usual casual flirt, her typical bathroom routine before sex with me, things I was familiar with. When I was teased enought I approach and usually was rejected.

We did have sex twice since DDay, both times it left us blushing and glowing and feeling good until the next day.

[This message edited by rightbeforebday at 1:08 PM, February 16th (Wednesday)]

The poster palerider who wrote about how I've been "devalued" by my wife for many years totally made it clear to me. THANK YOU THANK YOU AND THANK YOU ONE MORE TIME!!! I've been devalued by my wife as a lover, a husband, a compatible mate. She failed to see my strength, my love, my dedication to my family and my hard works.

Yesterday I took the afternoon taking care of myself and my daughter while my wife was stuck in jury duty.

I renewed my health insurance and scheduled a physical for myself. I also exercised at home while my daughter did her homework. I actually lost 20 lbs since my DDay in November and I think I should start to focus on my own physique as well as my soul. I took my daughter to the pool afterward with our neighbor and her kids, had a wonderful time. cooked healthy dinner afterward and listening to inspirational music really drew me to a better place last night. After my wife returned home, I had no needs to put on a sad face, I was content, at peace. I had no needs to be hostile or cold with her, and I didn't have the urge to show her any affections or needs for her comfort. I felt a great relief and I've gains some confidence in myself that I can be happy with my life, happy with what I have, regardless of what my wife did to me and the way she's handling it. She bought me my favorite snack from near the court house, told me she was thinking of me, it's nice but I no longer depend on this kind of random "good days" as my source of peace and happiness.

180=self respect. Your wife is perceiving you as a "second choice". Do not live your life that way. Even if its without her. In the choice between marriage and your happiness, your happiness is what is best for your daughter. Good luck

you're totally right!!

about to present my wife with the intake form for her to fill out in preparation for MC. What should I expect from the first MC session? What should I be focusing on with the counselor?

If it was me I would make my WS be the one to set up the MC. It seems to me that you are the only one trying to make this work. Just my opinion. Ignore if you like. :)

RBBD,

I don't know if she has come around at all since we last posted, but I am not a huge fan of MC without a fully remorseful wife.

She definitely needs IC, and you may want it too, if you're having some coping trouble.

But without a doubt, if the two of you go to MC, it is imperative that:

(1) the MC is experienced in infidelity. You are wasting time and money if they are not, and

(2) nothing, and I mean NOTHING gets addressed until the A has been fully addressed to your satisfaction. It doesn't matter if it takes 10 or 1000 sessions--the affair gets handled first.

It has to be done this way because a counselor is there for both of you. They are trying to help the two of you communicate better AND work on both of your faults.

And if your WW isn't remorseful, she is going to use your faults as excuses, justification, and ammunition against you. That is a promise.

Please, please, please heed those (2) pieces of advice. You can actually cause more damage to the M if you have an unexperienced MC without infidelity experience, an unremorseful or foggy spouse, and allow them to address YOUR faults before the A is fully addressed.

I can't stress this enough. I waited over a year until our first MC session because I knew what could happen. It is probably one of the only things I have done properly since my world came crashing down.

Don't let them minimize your pain.

I am hoping for the best for you, friend.

[This message edited by jb3199 at 5:30 PM, February 24th (Thursday)]

thanks for the genuine concerns and advice. trust me I'm taking them in and apply to my situation.

What must a WS do to show true remorse? Is it safe to say it's different in everyone's case? What do you guys think my wife should do to show her true remorse?

Surely I'm hurt and angry for what my wife had done, surely I want bad things to happen to the OM, real bad things. But it'll be out of character for me to completely lose it and start smashing plates, and it'll be out of character for my wife to be on her knees and begging me to stay. The reality is that I can't really leave my wife and kid in our single income family in our little one bed room apartment in NYC. It's financially impossible and logistically stupid.

To actively pursue 180, I do feel much stronger more confident and at peace. And my wife "behaves" much better, much more caring, much more considerate about my feelings, much more sweet and affectionate(which brings me a degree of comfort). But when we try to actively communicate to work on fixing our marriage, to face the tough issues, talk about the A, talk about MC, talk about our needs, the pain and anger return to me and at the same time the wife start to appear "in the fog" again. Kinda makes me feels like any active attempt to reconcile is a 180 failure. To 180 or not to 180, to talk about it or not to talk about it? I'm at a constant struggle on juggling between the two and by far it's my biggest confusion and challenge.

You are right--it is a constant struggle.

It is also true that everyones case is unique...yet so may actions and behavioral patterns parallel one another.

I describe true remorse as the time that a wayward truly realizes what they have done. They see all the damage that they left behind AND what is in front of them.

It is the closest that they can get to feeling your pain and anguish without having experienced it themselves. And the huge difference is that they WANT TO TRY to repair the damage.

They will console you; they will do what you ask and imply to try and ease your pain.

Most importantly, they will want to help themselves. They will want to get to their root problems to find out how they could do the unthinkable.

They will want to make themself a better person--for them and for you.

And you will know when and if this epiphany occurs. You will feel it. Just like that gut feeling that told you something was wrong prior to D-day.

Regretfully, sometimes it takes an eternity or never happens. And that is what you have to decide---how much will you take?

I can almost assure you that if she doesn't get to the core of this problem, then it is likely to happen again in the future--whether it is 1,5, or ten years from now.

That is why I said it is critical to address this in MC---so you don't have a D-day #2.

I also hear you about finances---but believe me, that mindset of yours can change.

I went from I can't financially do this to--f@ck it...I will file for divorce AND bankruptcy if I have to.

It is amazing how a lack of remorse can erode on you.

Here's hoping it doesn't get to that point.

rbbd, I have nothing to add to jb3199's advice. He's offered you great advice, particularly that your MC must be experienced in infidelity. I just wanted to let you know that you were in my thoughts and prayers too.

(((rbdd)))

I just want to add that 'adressing the A' means that the MC is confronting your WW on the A - that is, why and how did she decide to do what she did.

'Addressing the A' also means quickly getting past the excuses/justifications that your wife may have used to justify her actions in her own mind and quickly gettingto the decisions that your wife made.