SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hi Smoky,

I'm a long time lurker and have been following your story. This is long, so bear with me if you can. :)

FWIW, I think your honesty is extremely refreshing. You're not just posting what all of us what to hear; you're speaking your truth. And your truth is that despite everything she's done to you and your family, you're still head over heels in love, and would do anything and everything to get your wife back.

In this case, it may be that the ONLY way to get your wife back is to do the 180 completely. As hard as it is, you toughening up, faking indifference, and filing divorce papers (just starting the process!) really may be the only thing that shakes her out of her fog. And if it doesn't, you've got a head start on the moving on/healing process.

IMO, right now she's got it made - she knows you're at home pining for her, and she's doing whatever the hell she wants while you wait. As long as you keep waiting, she'll keep stringing you along. She gets the best of both worlds.

Quick questions for you - do you have a history of low self-esteem? Staying in relationships where you clearly work harder than the other person? Where you obviously "love more?"

I ask because I know that I was that person for a long, long time. I stayed in relationships that I knew were "over" for far too long because I couldn't handle being alone. I also thought I could change the cheater, make him realize how badly he was hurting me, and stop. I can see now how misguided my attempts were - oh, how I wish I had found SI back then.

I'm embarrassed to even admit some of things I did in the face of infidelity. For one, I found out about a month into the relationship that *I* was the OW - and convinced myself that he would be different with me. I stayed. I hacked into his email and caught him emailing his exes...and I did nothing. I wanted to visit him one weekend, and he said he was going camping -- his phone was turned off and everything. I later found receipts from a night out on the town, and he confessed to turning his phone off all weekend to trick me. I even made him write up a damn "boundary contract" that we both signed -- and he promptly ignored.

And yet, I stayed with him. Quite honestly, I think the only reason things ended is because I moved to different state.

My point in all this (sorry for the t/j)is that I know what it's like when your head is telling you one thing (LEAVE!), but your heart is telling you another(STAY!) Logic won't help fix your heart. I look back now and cringe at my unwillingness to walk away. But that was who I was/where I was at that time in my life.

You take your time with all of this. We'll all be here to support you.

Hugs.

Smoky,

You OK bud?? Haven't heard from you.

Just checkin'.

Still2:

You OK bud?? Haven't heard from you.

Thanks for checking in. I was out of town till yesterday afternoon, then very busy for the rest of the day, and then...

In a text over the weekend, my wife had asked to come over tonight to watch TV. Why TV? Dunno -- maybe wanted to try and relate to her husband and sun in a non-crying setting. So, fine, TV it is, plus dinner.

This morning I got up briefly around 2:20, and then, at 2:30... "Are you awake?" Text from my wife. "Yup," I offered."

"I am so miserable," she replied.

I called. She was, of course, in tears. I offered to come over (to her new place, the one she just signed a fuh-reakin' year lease on) to talk.

She really was a wreck. We maybe talked till about four, then tried to sleep, without much success.

Anyway, She feels like an idiot for the choices she's making, feels she's made terrible mistakes. ("Oh, no, not at all!" I failed to say.) I mostly listened, especially 'cause she was pretty hard to understand through the tears.

Among the stuff I can remember:

* "H" says things to her like, "I don't need this negative shit from you." I don't know precisely *what* negative shit he's talking about, but still: what a sweetheart. I said, "Looks to me like he's ready to bail, and you're hanging on." She nodded. I felt just *wonderful*!

* I said, "Has it occurred to you that he's got someone else in his sights?" She nodded. She knows what kind of guy he is, but she hasn't *wanted* to know. I wanted to say, "This guy is poison. Exactly what's so hard to get over about him?" but I didn't. Next time I will.

* She talked about "these romantic notions" vis-a-vis her liaison with "H." I said, "Your friends [in the theater] have known 'H' for years. Didn't any of them warn you off, knowing what kind of person he is?" No, she said, sounding kind of surprised. I'm thinking, "These are your *friends*?"

* I told her he'd made two hang-up calls the night she left. She was surprised. Further, she asked me if I'd called his wife. I said yes, and told her about the conversation. ("H" seemed to think I'd called more than once, but I hadn't.) I asked what she thought about me calling the wife. She said, "At the time I thought, 'This just seems desperate and sick.'" I think she said she doesn't feel that way any longer, but I don't remember exactly how she put it. I said, "The people I talked to" -- meaning friends, family, the second marriage counselor we saw, and the folks here -- "were about evenly divided among 'Yeah, definitely call the wife,' 'No, don't call,' and 'I don't know.' I didn't like making the call, but it's probably best that I did."

* She still doesn't know who made the initial, anonymous call telling me about the affair. "H," though, apparently believes he has a "stalker." I said, "Yeah, this stalker is probably the *last* person 'H' humped and dumped."

* I told her that "H" reminded my sisters and a brother-in-law (independently) of her father. She was surprised. I didn't go to the next logical conclusion, which was that she's seeking a daddy in "H."

* She said at some point that, shortly after she moved in with me in 1984, I had burst into tears and become very upset, saying, "I'm not your rebound guy, am I?" I asked (today), "*Am* I your rebound guy?" She said "No. I couldn't do that to you." I don't know what it means, though -- it could mean that she doesn't want to be together enough for me to *be* the rebound guy; or it could mean she wants to be together, period. No idea.

We talked some more after we woke up around seven. (No -- no sex. None asked for, none expected. I didn't even *want* sex. Okay, that part is a huge lie, but still. And when I told her about my little conversation with my son when I left, she said, "You know what *he* was thinking: 'booty call.'" I said, "Boo-*hoo*-ty call." Very clever! See what I did there? Huh? Didja?)

Other things will pop into my mind at some point, but that's about all I remember -- neither of us was at our best at that time of day. Anyway, I left at about 8:15 so she could get ready for work.

Then she called at 11:30, again in tears, saying that she thinks that it might be her lymphoma that's really doing a number on her, emotionally, and asked me to research support groups in the area. Surprisingly, I'm finding very little. I've put in some calls and am waiting to hear from some people (including LiveStrong -- Lance Armstrong, you know).

It's pretty clear that even a $40 co-pay for any kind of therapy might really be too expensive for her on a weekly basis. (Again, she's a preschool teacher.) I can try to help, but given *my* finances.... The short version is, we might end up filing bankruptcy -- something that, I can assure you, I have been saying no to for 20 years.

And then, this afternoon, the co-parenting counselor called. (I had phoned him last Monday, saying that my wife had expected to continue seeing him, which was something he and I didn't figure on, given his assessment that he never expected to see her again.) He said he wouldn't be able to make our appointment, and I said I didn't know we *had* any more appointments. I recapped our conversation and my last phone message, then said, "Suddenly there are new developments, and I don't know what to make of them."

I told him about last Tuesday night and this morning. "That sounds good," he said. I said I wanted marriage and/or family counseling, and that my inclination was to use him for that. He said, "Well... go slow and easy," meaning that if we indeed are in the process of reconciling, I shouldn't rush her into anything, including counseling. I said I agreed, but that I really don't know how to proceed with her -- that I sort of asked her for guidance, and she really doesn't know either. (That is, I don't want to get all clingy and even *more* anti-180, etc.)

Fact is, right now, my wife is a hot mess.

She's a hot mess, but she both wishes it would work out with the other guy, and counts on you to be her sounding board for the emotional confusion she's feeling.

She knows you love her.

I know, because I've been there, how hard it is not to turn a straw into a life raft. I know that you want to research support groups and get into counseling.

She has got to choose you. On her own.

It's not your place, nor is it good for either of you, to be analyzing "H"'s character and supporting her through being disillusioned. That's on her. And it won't benefit your future to be her confidante now.

Blinders said it perfectly.

Just be careful Smoky. You seem like such a nice, kind, person, and you'd obviously do anything for your wife. Problem is, she knows that. Things are rocky with "H" and I'm afraid she's using you. :(

Take care of you!!

Smoky,

asked me to research support groups in the area

I can try to help

Gentle 2x4 coming, she KNOWS you aren't going anywhere. She KNOWS all she has to do is call, cry, etc and you will be her KISA!!

"*Am* I your rebound guy?" She said "No. I couldn't do that to you

Of course she's gonna say No. Wouldn't you?? But from what you have written you ARE her rebound guy!! BTDT!! We just don't know it at the time, and don't want to believe they would do that to us!

I asked this before: What are YOUR requirements for R?" You MUST have them or you will just be back here at some point in the future. You need to give them to her. She either does them or not.

But rug-sweepin' just don't work!!

PLEASE don't let her manipulate you!!!

From what you have written that's all I see. So far.

Can she truly be remorseful, and "get it"? Only you will know that.

But so far I see squat

She's a hot mess

^^this.

I am sorry Smoky I just see her hedgin' her bets.

YOU DO NOT DESERVE TO BE A BACK UP PLAN!!

I apologize if I am out-of-line here. It just seems to me that you are still allowing her to make all the decisions, and she is using that knowledge to her advantage.

eta: still sending hugs

[This message edited by still2suspicious at 2:01 PM, February 13th (Wednesday)]

Thanks again, everybody, for your kindness and support.

blinders_off:

She's a hot mess, but she both wishes it would work out with the other guy, and counts on you to be her sounding board for the emotional confusion she's feeling.

She knows you love her.

I know, because I've been there, how hard it is not to turn a straw into a life raft. I know that you want to research support groups and get into counseling.

She has got to choose you. On her own.

It's not your place, nor is it good for either of you, to be analyzing "H"'s character and supporting her through being disillusioned. That's on her. And it won't benefit your future to be her confidante now.

One thing that makes it difficult is that I'm *used* to supporting her (even if *she* might not agree). I do think, though, that there's not a lot I can or should do about whether she decides to come back or not. I do have to live my life, regardless of her choices.

Course, that doesn't keep me from getting all antsy when she doesn't get in touch. I'm just not at that point of detaching. I wish I could.

totrustagain:

Just be careful Smoky. You seem like such a nice, kind, person, and you'd obviously do anything for your wife. Problem is, she knows that. Things are rocky with "H" and I'm afraid she's using you. :(

Take care of you!!

It's definitely crossed my mind that she could be using me for emotional support and kind of as a springboard into her "new life," or whatever. I'd like to give her more credit than that, but... well, I know her brain hasn't been working all that well for some months; no reason to think it's not still on the blink.

Believe me, everything she says about our relationship: grain of salt. Whether she says yes or no, regardless of the question, I'm on my guard.

Kind of funny note, in a laughing-through-the-tears sort of way: My best friend said, "It is a very good call that you are really working hard to not be physical. It really demonstrates to her that you really mean business about making your relationship about much more sublime things involving authentic love and abiding respect and deeply genuine consideration." (Yeah, he talks like that.)

I said, "Are you kidding? I don't have to try not to be physical, since it's basically always been her call anyway. I'd *love* to be physical -- it's been over three months."

Another friend said, "I just hope you have the inner strength to resist sleeping together before things are more clearly defined and/or resolved." Again: me, "resisting"? Wouldn't there have to be some kind of a come-on to resist?

still2:

Gentle 2x4 coming, she KNOWS you aren't going anywhere. She KNOWS all she has to do is call, cry, etc and you will be her KISA!!

I had to look that one up. I'm glad I did, because I *really* do *not* want to be her Kodiak Island Sportsman Association.

But yeah, it does seem that she needs me to be strong for her right now. Again, I'm used to being supportive of her, so it's highly unlikely I'd say "Hey, wipe your *own* tushy." But mostly I'm trying to be strong for *me*. Believe me, these latest developments have *not* induced me to quit therapy or going to these support groups. I do not trust her -- or the circumstances -- at this point.

"*Am* I your rebound guy?" She said "No. I couldn't do that to you

Of course she's gonna say No. Wouldn't you?? But from what you have written you ARE her rebound guy!! BTDT!! We just don't know it at the time, and don't want to believe they would do that to us!

Yeah, I've considered this as well. I believe that *she* believes it, at least at the moment. However, as I say, maybe it means she doesn't even want to be with me enough for me to be the rebound guy... or maybe she *does* want me to be the rebound guy... or all or none of that. Since I don't know, I'm trying not to analyze the hell out of it (with mixed results).

I asked this before: What are YOUR requirements for R?" You MUST have them or you will just be back here at some point in the future. You need to give them to her. She either does them or not.

The problem there is the fear of rushing/crowding/pushing/spooking her -- I feel as though, at this point, I'm not in a position to dictate terms, and that I need to give it a little time. How much, I don't know.

I think I've said this before, but my requirements are:

1) No more "H" of any kind -- zero contact (at least once this fucking show they're in is over, 'cause she can't exactly avoid him onstage) of any kind: letters, texts, phone calls, e-mails, little "accidental" (or less accidental face-to-face encounters. His phone number and e-mail address: they're lost. Period. No "H." That also extends to any potential *future* "H," as in: If she finds herself attracted to some other guy, especially if she's reading anything mutual from him, she does what I've done in similar situations: tells herself, "Maybe I like this person too much," and backs off pronto and permanently.

2) Work on herself in and out of therapy, and on our marriage, in and out of marriage counseling -- however long it takes, however much it costs. The marriage comes first, and marriage counseling is a must, if only so we can learn to communicate the way we should.

3) Most importantly: complete honesty, accountability, transparency, etc. No lies. No unspoken anger or resentment.

I certainly would hold myself to the same standards.

But rug-sweepin' just don't work!!

PLEASE don't let her manipulate you!!!

From what you have written that's all I see. So far.

I hear you, definitely. I know she feels genuine guilt and shame, and I believe that the pain she feels as a result of the pain she's caused my son and me is real and, at times, overwhelming. However, I sure as hell don't trust that she's back on the wagon. I am *willing* to trust her, and certainly willing to forgive her, but neither of these things will happen real soon.

We've had just these two recent discussions in which things seem to be turning around, if only slightly; we need to do a lot more honest, open talking. A *lot* more. I figure, incidentally, that if we do restart a sexual relationship anytime soon, that will indeed be rug-sweeping. Much as I want it, as crazy about her as I am, I know -- if only from our dating period -- that sex really can get in the way of important discussion.

It seems to me that, even though on the financial scale, we're lookin' up at church mice, her being in a separate home for a year might be very good for us -- regardless of the end result.

Can she truly be remorseful, and "get it"? Only you will know that.

I think she feels genuine remorse. Does that translate into future faithful, with-me-forever behavior? I don't know. Neither does she. Lately she is in as bad a state as I've ever seen her -- worse. I tell myself she hasn't been in her right mind for months, but it's clear that she's not even close to it now -- though I'd *like* to believe that she's *closer* to it lately.

I am sorry Smoky I just see her hedgin' her bets.

YOU DO NOT DESERVE TO BE A BACK UP PLAN!!

I have been telling myself I won't be her Plan B. True, I find myself wondering just how resolved I am in that regard, and if I'm turning into Plan B without realizing it. I try to stay on my guard. There's no way I'm relaxing right now, and I need for us to discuss this very fact.

I apologize if I am out-of-line here. It just seems to me that you are still allowing her to make all the decisions, and she is using that knowledge to her advantage.

Don't apologize -- you're not out of line at all. I agree that she's calling the shots -- I feel as though, despite what you've said here and earlier, that the ball's in her court. I guess I don't have the courage to say, "Look, call me if you figure out what you want, but until then, leave me alone." I think what I need is way more discussion with her -- if we can do it without one of us (most likely her) crying. All crying really does is bring out the "mother" in me, at least with her... but it also frustrates me because I don't know what to do. I really don't think she uses crying as a weapon on purpose, but it certainly is a weapon.

Meanwhile, to answer the thousands of questions I've gotten on the topic: I did pick up the new ukulele. Very disappointing -- it really sounded much better in the store.

[This message edited by Smoky at 12:33 AM, February 14th (Thursday)]

I've been gone for awhile brother and I know it. I've been hoping, praying to see steps you have taken for yourself. damn I'm glad to see you got the ukulele. watching what you have posted has shown me some great growth in yourself. just recognizing that you are a resident of Kodiak Island is a great step. I've been here 5 times remember? honestly, fix that first!

regardless of what she chooses to do, fixing yourself has to be the first step. damn do I remember wanting to get back together so desperately. however I always recognize that infidelity was a breaker for me. I don't know why I have chosen to stick around this time. what those previous relationships did was allow me to recognize was that there was something in me that needs to be fixed first. this time around, if it works, I am damn well going to be confident in what I have chosen. not because I needed or wanted her, but because I knew that she was the best choice for me. 1 of the major things in that process will be her ability to work on her self and fix whatever issues it is she has. I absolutely refuse to be her second choice, or what she has decided to settle for. I am too damn good for that.

brother so are you. damn through every post you have I see what a kind heart you have. unfortunately I think, so does she. from you what you have posted I think she is taking full advantage of that. quit letting her use you. if she wants to share in your life, fine. sharing is a 2 way street and you know it. stick to your guns. Make her come back to you. you know what's right. don't settle for anything less.

how is your son doing? Have you taught him how to cook a great meal yet? better yet is he interested in the ukulele?

strength and prayers brother. I am still here!

[This message edited by 5454real at 12:57 AM, February 14th (Thursday)]

ToTrustAgain:

Sorry I haven't responded to your post from last week -- I just didn't see it until now. I do value your input, though.

FWIW, I think your honesty is extremely refreshing. You're not just posting what all of us what to hear; you're speaking your truth. And your truth is that despite everything she's done to you and your family, you're still head over heels in love, and would do anything and everything to get your wife back.

I've wondered if it isn't weakness -- or, especially, fear -- disguised as head-over-heels-in-love love. And then I think, "I'm not giving myself enough credit. Of *course* I love her, and a whole hell of a lot at that. This is a 30-year love." There's no question that fear is a big factor. Weakness? Probably, in some ways.

In this case, it may be that the ONLY way to get your wife back is to do the 180 completely. As hard as it is, you toughening up, faking indifference, and filing divorce papers (just starting the process!) really may be the only thing that shakes her out of her fog. And if it doesn't, you've got a head start on the moving on/healing process.

Thing with the divorce papers is, I can't afford them, and she certainly can't -- and I've already resolved to make *her* shell out the cash. I feel really stupid about the 180 thing right now, though, because of this latest stuff that's been so crazy. Soon enough, I hope, I'll know just how much I need to adhere to the 180.

IMO, right now she's got it made - she knows you're at home pining for her, and she's doing whatever the hell she wants while you wait. As long as you keep waiting, she'll keep stringing you along. She gets the best of both worlds.

Oh, these thoughts have occurred to me, and I've been planning to say something along these lines the next time we have a substantial talk. I don't think there's any deliberate manipulation on her part -- at least not right now -- but that's mainly because she's in *such* a bad emotional place.

Quick questions for you - do you have a history of low self-esteem? Staying in relationships where you clearly work harder than the other person? Where you obviously "love more?"

These are great questions. The answers are yes, I don't know, and I don't know. I mean, I don't think I'm a bad person or anything, but my career has been pretty much a joke in almost all ways, and that takes a huge chunk out of my self-esteem. My wife citing my iffy employment record over the last six years just adds fuel to that fire. The core-level fears regarding work are the main things I plan to work on in therapy.

It wouldn't be fair to say I work harder than my wife does on our relationship. She's worked *very* hard over the years -- often harder than I have -- and I guess she reached a point where she just couldn't do it anymore.

Meanwhile, I have often wondered if I love her more than she loves me.

I couldn't say if this is a recurring pattern, though, because this is the only serious relationship I've ever had -- and therefore, maybe, amazing that it's lasted 30 years.

I ask because I know that I was that person for a long, long time. I stayed in relationships that I knew were "over" for far too long because I couldn't handle being alone. I also thought I could change the cheater, make him realize how badly he was hurting me, and stop. I can see now how misguided my attempts were - oh, how I wish I had found SI back then.

I just haven't had the experience of being in a relationship that I knew was "over." Including this one. I know she loves me, and I know she's confused. That doesn't mean I know she's coming back, by any stretch.

I'm embarrassed to even admit some of things I did in the face of infidelity. For one, I found out about a month into the relationship that *I* was the OW - and convinced myself that he would be different with me. I stayed. I hacked into his email and caught him emailing his exes...and I did nothing. I wanted to visit him one weekend, and he said he was going camping -- his phone was turned off and everything. I later found receipts from a night out on the town, and he confessed to turning his phone off all weekend to trick me. I even made him write up a damn "boundary contract" that we both signed -- and he promptly ignored.

And yet, I stayed with him. Quite honestly, I think the only reason things ended is because I moved to different state.

I hear you, and I'm genuinely sorry you've had that experience.

I've been pretty embarrassed at my behavior, especially when we split up for six months while we were dating. And despite what some people here have said, I don't feel good about having called "H"'s wife -- and not identified myself, though I'm sure she figured out it was me; in fact (did I mention this already?), my wife asked yesterday if I *had* called the guy's wife -- clearly *he* thought so. (The only reason I said "yes" was in the interests of mutual honesty; a month ago, I probably would have said no.) Then again, he thought I'd done so more than once, and I did only call the one time. (I figure he was trying to do to me what I've tried to do to him: point out and/or magnify certain behavior to make me/him look even worse. For instance, I told my wife about the two hang-up calls he made the night she left -- I mean, they're not particularly relevant, but they do "point toward the witness' state of mind, your honor.")

My point in all this (sorry for the t/j)is that I know what it's like when your head is telling you one thing (LEAVE!), but your heart is telling you another(STAY!) Logic won't help fix your heart. I look back now and cringe at my unwillingness to walk away. But that was who I was/where I was at that time in my life.

You can at least give yourself enough credit to know that your head was telling you to leave. That's just not the case with me. I honestly believe we should be together, and I just don't see any positives in our being apart. On the other hand, right now... her brain is on the fritz. I mean, she's *so* damaged, and those particular chickens are coming home to roost, big-time. Combine that with the pain she's experienced in the last six years of our marriage, plus the trip "H" has laid on her, and she's pretty much a wreck. I know: Why should I even *want* this person? But I do.

You take your time with all of this. We'll all be here to support you.

Thank you. As I've said, the support and understanding I've received here is invaluable. I'm also lucky to have a loving mother, sisters, and friends who've been very firmly in my corner. I don't even want to think about how I'd be behaving if I didn't have all these people -- and the people here. I really am not a suicidal person, being afraid of death and all (and also of the belief that suicide is selfish beyond belief), but at times, not being alive has sounded like maybe not such a terrible idea... and that's *with* all the support I've gotten. Without it... I can't even imagine.

smokey....

Been following your story from the start...

One question for ya, bro...Is your wife in ANY contact with her BF?? Any contact at all?

Bufffalo

[This message edited by bufffalo at 2:01 AM, February 20th (Wednesday)]

bufffalo:

One question for ya, bro...Is you wife in ANY contact with her BF?? Any contact at all?

Yeah: they're both in yet another play through community theater. (This particular show has been in rehearsal since last month -- before she and I started talking again.) Clearly they've been talking, too -- what else they've been doing, I have no idea -- because she said that lately he told her "I don't need this negative shit from you," whatever that meant. (It sounds like it means "I don't need to deal with whatever horrific pain you're going through, so piss off.")

She said a week ago Tuesday that they're "still together," and she hasn't said since then that they're *not*. However, it does sound like it's winding down.

And no, that doesn't really give me great feelings of encouragement -- the whole "rebound"/"Plan B" thing, etc.

But if and when she decides she wants to make a go of it with me again, I will make it very plain that there is to be no further contact with this clown -- even to the extent of: "If he's in a show, you're not. You can find other shows." However I don't feel as though I can ask her to quit *this* show. It's kind of a crappy position for me to be in.

5454real:

I don't know why I didn't see this before -- would have responded to it by now. This has happened a couple times lately, and I can only assume my brain's still on the blink, even for me.

I've been gone for awhile brother and I know it. I've been hoping, praying to see steps you have taken for yourself. damn I'm glad to see you got the ukulele. watching what you have posted has shown me some great growth in yourself. just recognizing that you are a resident of Kodiak Island is a great step. I've been here 5 times remember? honestly, fix that first!

I appreciate your saying this. I still don't feel "growth" or "improvement," or whatever, but I figure that if others see it, it could actually be true....

Lately it has not been all that pleasant. Just to fill in the details (and, as always, please forgive any repetition):

On Thursday -- Valentine's Day -- I was thinking about some things my wife had said, including something about how "hormonal" she'd been feeling on Tuesday (at oh-dark-thirty), as if to say, "Pay no attention -- my feelings of neediness were due to circumstances beyond my control." So I texted, asking for "clarification." She called during her lunch hour, and we had the kind of talk that should have been in person. I was, once again, quite teary. She confirmed my sense that she's backing off from me, fearing the notion of using me for emotional support and kind of as a springboard into her new life, or whatever. I said I didn't want to pressure her, but that I *would* like to know what the hell is going on.

Nutshell: she doesn't know. She doesn't want to "make the same mistakes" she made in entering her affair, and she doesn't want to repeat the patterns of our marriage that led her to leave anyway, so she thinks she'll have a better idea, or some answers, once she, I dunno, sorts some more shit out. We later had a conversation via text in which she said, "I do care so deeply for you. I know how confused and vulnerable this makes you feel. I don't want you to suffer, so I am so very sorry I can't make any clear decisions right now. Whatever happens or doesn't happen, please know I don't want to cause you pain."

Well... I'm pretty sure I know *that* part. I said I just don't know what to do or think (which I guess is the very definition of "confusion"), but I do know that I don't want to ruin any progress we may have made. I said, "Everybody says to 'detach,' but... how?"

She said, "The 'detach' part comes and goes for me, so that's the part that makes it hard to open up completely." My feeling is, why the hell was it so easy for her to detach in the first place? What I said, though, was, "It had to be easier for you to detach -- you had someone else to attach to. I don't, and I won't -- it's not like I'm gonna date."

She said, "I know how lousy you feel, and texting is better at the moment: less raw. Try to relax some if you can." Yeah. Whee.

So... basically she's stalling me, and, I imagine, her shitheel boyfriend ("I don't need this negative shit from you") is stalling her. And she knows this guy's bad news, but the stupidest part of her brain right now is the part behind the steering wheel.

Yesterday was our "family outing." She wants to have regular family outings now, she says -- in lieu, I suppose, of "dating" me... i.e., the rough equivalent of sticking a toe in the water and gradually getting in, if it seems warm enough. We spent about six hours together, grabbing brunch and taking a drive. Maybe half an hour after we ate, my wife started having tummy trouble. (My driving, tragically, doesn't help.) We got back to the apartment, and she went "home." No idea when to expect to hear from her again. She knows I'm going to my mom's next weekend (since I've been going roughly every other weekend for months now, despite being really bored most of the time...).

On the other hand, I did manage to be relatively cheerful -- it was an outing like many others we've had (including the tummy-ache). I'm doing my best to try not to be controlling, though while she was here, we went to our insurer's website and downloaded a (small) list of therapists for her. When she left, I reflexively moved in to give her a hug and a kiss, and, of course, she turned her head slightly to the left.... I really need to say, "If you don't want me to kiss you, say so, and I won't."

At no point did we discuss "us," and I have no idea when we will next. Today I had therapy, and tonight I go to this "divorce recovery" group. Today the therapist said kind of what I'd been thinking, namely something very much like "What good does it do you if you and my wife sleep under the same roof? And it has to be pretty confusing for your son." She didn't say it that judgmentally, at all, but the point, really, is to establish some kind of boundaries. I'm on board with that, I'm pretty sure. I said that I'm really reluctant to say "no" to my wife for anything, out of fear that it'd push her farther away, but then, *anything* I do is liable to have that effect. I said it probably would've been smarter of me not to share a bed with her last Tuesday morning, and I figured that's the decision I'd make if there were a next time.

One potentially important thing is that I brought up ADHD, saying that I'm sure I have it, and that dealing with it -- from what I've learned about ADHD, anyway -- could take care of my *other* crap, to some extent. (I've been sure for years -- this isn't a new insight.) Therapist suggested that I talk to the guy who runs the men's group I'm gonna start going to on Thursday -- he's got some brains on the subject and may be able to help me get assessed. (I was *supposed* to start *last* Thursday... but all but one of the guys asked to cancel due to... Valentine's Day. Assholes.)

So I guess the upshot is, I don't know what's in my wife's mind, and neither does she. I figure she's open to *something*, or she wouldn't even want these "family" outings.

regardless of what she chooses to do, fixing yourself has to be the first step. damn do I remember wanting to get back together so desperately. however I always recognize that infidelity was a breaker for me. I don't know why I have chosen to stick around this time. what those previous relationships did was allow me to recognize was that there was something in me that needs to be fixed first. this time around, if it works, I am damn well going to be confident in what I have chosen. not because I needed or wanted her, but because I knew that she was the best choice for me. 1 of the major things in that process will be her ability to work on her self and fix whatever issues it is she has. I absolutely refuse to be her second choice, or what she has decided to settle for. I am too damn good for that.

This all echoes what I think, except that I certainly haven't behaved as though infidelity is absolutely the deal-breaker. It *should* be, because it's *way* more than "My wife had sex with some other guy." I think I'm finally seeing the value in the 180, rather than *hoping* to see how it might work in my favor, you know?

brother so are you. damn through every post you have I see what a kind heart you have. unfortunately I think, so does she. from you what you have posted I think she is taking full advantage of that. quit letting her use you. if she wants to share in your life, fine. sharing is a 2 way street and you know it. stick to your guns. Make her come back to you. you know what's right. don't settle for anything less.

This is hard, because as I've said, I'm just so used to being supportive of her. One thing the therapist suggested today was simply to turn my phone off at bedtime... but I'm not sure I can do that. It's like I'm addicted to looking at it every five seconds to see if a text came through and my phone, for some reason, didn't vibrate. Yes, I feel silly, but hey.

She is acutely aware of how easy it would be for her to use me, and I heartily agreed when she said, "I know it's unfair for me to be calling all the shots." I don't want to be unavailable to her (though certainly she has been unavailable to *me*), but -- per the 180 -- I do want to be *less* available and less easy to access. Maybe she needs a few nights by herself, wishing I were there to hold her and pat her back, or whatever.

To answer the hundreds of thousands of questions to this effect: No, I don't intend for any sex to take place between us anytime soon, as much as I'd like it to happen. It seems like it would be real stupid, given her ambivalence and confusion, and that it would really muddy up the waters. It's hard not to want, given that we ain't done nothin' in three months... but then, even during my marriage, three months is but a mini-drought.

how is your son doing? Have you talk to him how to cook a great meal yet? better yet is he interested in the ukulele?

I'm not seeing any interest. I haven't played the new uke much, though -- as I said, it doesn't sound great. I'm hoping it'll grown on me, because I can't return it. (I may be able to get store credit, though.)

Haven't shown him how to cook anything yet -- thing is, he's *very* withdrawn, even more than usual. Clearly this is a troubling sign. The counselor he has through County Mental Health hasn't been around lately. (She comes to our place, and they walk to a nearby park or something.) He's really been dragging his ass regarding work, or even getting out of the house (though he's at a friend's place now).

Possibly more importantly, I can't imagine how he feels about the sudden and relatively frequent appearances of his mother. He seemed fine on our outing, and was in pretty good humor, but he stuck pretty close to me, not to her. I have to think that it was confusing in some way, when she spent Tuesday night here (and slept on the couch), to say nothing of me leaving at 3 a.m. to go to her place.

strength and prayers brother. I am still here!

Believe me, I truly appreciate your support. I hope, once everything shakes out, that I'll have the strength and insight to be able to help others here, as you and so many have helped me.

I had to look that one up. I'm glad I did, because I *really* do *not* want to be her Kodiak Island Sportsman Association.

I literally LOLed at this - good to see you still have a sense of humor!

Thanks for checking in Smoky!

When she left, I reflexively moved in to give her a hug and a kiss, and, of course, she turned her head slightly to the left.... I really need to say, "If you don't want me to kiss you, say so, and I won't."

2x4 time, bro.....and dude - im really sorry. Her actions are speaking louder than words...and theyre screaming at you - and youre NOT listening. She has a BF....she is openly dating.... You need to draw a line in the dirt - like Travis at the Alamo....then back it up.

Hell, i hear you, bro....you love your wife...and dont want a divorce....i didnt either. I wanted to share my wife with her BF even less....KWIM?

She said a week ago Tuesday that they're "still together," and she hasn't said since then that they're *not*.

You have 3 in your marriage....and you are NOT gonna "nice guy" her back into your arms....WILL NOT HAPPEN! The best way out of a tug-of- war is to let go....dont play....right now shes got a BF AND a husband....as long as she has a BF....R is NOT gonna happen...you cannot work on a marriage while one of the marriage couple is dating others....yeah...it sucks....and, again...im sorry.

Bro....time to "cut her loose"....."lawyer up"...keep all conversations to kids and finances....

I figure she's open to *something*, or she wouldn't even want these "family" outings.

Smoky....yeah...shes "open" to humping your leg....pissing in your shoe....and eating your cake. You need to turn off that oven and take away her fork...

Your wife has a BF....you need to repeat this till it sinks in....your wife has a BF.... Now ....get mad...and cut her loose....DETACH. Open youself to the fact that she is openly dating others....

Im sorry, bro....i am. Have you studied the 180 process?? Please look at it....

I am only trying to help..

Bufffalo

This is a fantastic opportunity for you to get to know yourself, Smoky, but you seem resolutely focused against that, and instead completely focused on your wife's needs and doings.

Long term residents of Kodak Island have a certain arrogance, that they know best for others, and don't seem able to question their own motivations and selfishness about being needed. The island itself is of course quite lost, is blown mercilessly by all the elements, its residents just have to hang on to find out where they are going.

Smoky- I am sooooo sad for you. There is a double whammy going on here. She is dumping on you and you are dumping on yourself. Almost everyone has a period of paralysis after discovery where indecision and begging is commonplace.

Your prolonged niceness and cake allowance/allotment is outside of ordinary. I keep expecting you to post something to the effect that you have finally had enough and will not take it anymore. Unfortunately, that post has yet to come.

I will give you a ray of hope though. I predict that you do have a viable chance of R with your WW. But to do it you have to move in a different direction; one that others have been gently advocating. Dump her and work on yourself. Go no contact and get yourself in a position where you truly know what and/or if you need or even want that damaged woman. At that point, it is likely she will have been banging at your door asking for a second chance.

At this point, she has shown no interest in you (in that way) and your "niceness" is very unappealing. She has her BF and her security blanket. Rip that blanket away and you will be helping YOURSELF and (indirectly) her.

You've said you think she is genuinely remorseful.

She isn't. There isn't one action to support that notion.

You also mentioned how she has had no interest in sex and wants to do family outings instead of dates with you.

Brother she has made her choice. Forget what she is saying because that is all over the map.

Turn down the volume and look at her actions.

She started an A

She moved out

She is still in contact with OM

She will not do MC

Sorry for the 2x4 but your M doesn't have 3 people in it...it has 1...you. She removed herself from the M in every way except legally (i.e. filing for D).

And I have to disagree with you on this...

I really don't think she uses crying as a weapon on purpose, but it certainly is a weapon.

Yes, she does. I've seen this before. If you were to truly detach, to not react the way she expects, I guarantee you'd see a quick change.

bufffalo:

2x4 time, bro.....and dude - im really sorry. Her actions are speaking louder than words...and theyre screaming at you - and youre NOT listening. She has a BF....she is openly dating.... You need to draw a line in the dirt - like Travis at the Alamo....then back it up.

Hell, i hear you, bro....you love your wife...and dont want a divorce....i didnt either. I wanted to share my wife with her BF even less....KWIM?

I do. I've told her I won't share her -- clearly I've failed to back this up.

I have no reason to think she's not still seeing this clown, but I know that it's on the wane -- or *was*, as of a week ago. Probably I can't get it into my head that despite knowing what a prick he is, she's still not able to break away. (She's even less confrontational than I am, and less prone to argue. I'm already aware that he's conquered any fear of saying nasty stuff to her -- "I don't need this negative shit from you" -- and I picture her just sort of cringing or bursting into tears instead of inviting him to go fuck himself. And the fact that I even *think* in these terms... it's not a good sign.)

She said a week ago Tuesday that they're "still together," and she hasn't said since then that they're *not*.

You have 3 in your marriage....and you are NOT gonna "nice guy" her back into your arms....WILL NOT HAPPEN!

Intellectually, I know that. I hate the idea of playing games with her -- the whole "being standoffish" thing -- but it would appear that "being there" for her is a waste of everybody's time, including our son's.

The best way out of a tug-of- war is to let go....dont play....right now shes got a BF AND a husband....as long as she has a BF....R is NOT gonna happen...you cannot work on a marriage while one of the marriage couple is dating others....yeah...it sucks....and, again...im sorry.

I know -- and I appreciate that. After my phone conversation with her on Valentine's Day, I asked myself, "Why have I been *reading* the 180, but not *following* it?" I don't plan to be mean to her, but I definitely won't be as "available." Maybe mentioned -- again, please forget repetition and so on -- that my therapist suggested yesterday that I just turn my phone off at bedtime. I thought, "Yeah... I know I should...," but my excuse for keeping it on is... what if my elderly mother needs to talk to me in the middle of the night (which has never, ever happened)?

Bro....time to "cut her loose"....."lawyer up"...keep all conversations to kids and finances....

I've already decided to at least try to do that, and not to contact her if I can help it. But definitely I've decided not to ask things like, "So... what about 'us'?"

It makes me crazy. I should be working today, and I may put in a couple hours, but I'm so antsy that I can't settle down at all.

I figure she's open to *something*, or she wouldn't even want these "family" outings.

Smoky....yeah...shes "open" to humping your leg....pissing in your shoe....and eating your cake. You need to turn off that oven and take away her fork...

Your wife has a BF....you need to repeat this till it sinks in....your wife has a BF.... Now ....get mad...and cut her loose....DETACH. Open youself to the fact that she is openly dating others....

I was thinking just today about how she's basically been *flaunting* it. I mean, I really don't know what her behavior is like when I'm not with her, but it seems to me that for at least the past two months (i.e., since she left), she hasn't been sneaking around with "H," and that everybody in the show they're in is perfectly aware that they're together. Probably everybody at her job, too. She's married, and she's having an affair -- isn't she supposed to sneak?

Im sorry, bro....i am. Have you studied the 180 process?? Please look at it....

I am only trying to help..

I know that, and I appreciate it. I'm not getting angry with you or anything. I'm angry with *her*, and I'm angry with "H" -- who I know is just a catalyst, etc., but who's a hell of a lot easier to wish bad things on (like, say, the enforced, unsanitary, yet relatively sudden loss of genitals). And I get pretty angry with myself a lot, too.

I've looked at the 180 a hundred times (okay, a dozen), and... I dunno. I don't disagree with it or anything -- I think I've been seeing it in less real terms than I should. Or something. I know that I've violated every single commandment (except that I haven't really yelled, and I've probably called her a total of four times in these two-plus months).

The stuff about begging, initiating discussion about the marriage, saying "I love you" -- Lord, I've tried to adhere. You should have seen me two Tuesdays ago, when we were crying and I couldn't control it. There's nothing like exhibiting a behavior while, at the same time, mentally reading text that tells you to do the opposite. I felt like Mr. Bill: "Why? Why?" On Thursday, when I was weepy yet again, this time over the phone, I saw Number 5 in my head even as I was saying, "I just want to know what the hell is going on." For what it's worth, I've avoided saying "I love you," if only because she hasn't said it to *me* since the night she left.

Meanwhile, I love my in-laws, especially one of her sisters and a cousin that she's close to, and I've really wanted to talk to them -- sort of to tattle -- but I've known that even if they *wanted* to talk to me (and why should they, since blood is thicker than water), all it would end up doing is making everybody feel worse *and* pissing off my wife even more.

The idea of not buying her gifts or scheduling "dates" is very much in the front of my mind. I'm not crazy about these "family outings," under the current circumstances, even though the co-parenting counselor suggested them. I understand her wanting to do them... okay, let's pretend she's seriously considering getting back with me. (We can pretend, right?) I can see her wanting to "ease into" spending time with me, with the kid acting as a buffer. I think that's pretty damn manipulative, but I also know she's scared, ambivalent, confused and reluctant to hurt me any more than she has. I can see her wanting to do this rather than one-on-one meals or "dates," because I can imagine her worrying that I would wrongly leap to positive conclusions every time she made the slightest nice gesture toward me, especially without our son around.

I still would rather not *do* it, though, because it hurts, and I'm kind of afraid to say so because she really seems to want these outings. It has been suggested that I say, "Sure, take the kid out, but I'll stay home, thanks." And probably that's what I should do, but I feel like I'd look like I was pouting. Should that matter? I don't know. But I feel like it'd be counterproductive (however honest) to say, "Look, if you're still with 'H,' I don't want to spend time with you at all."

As for gifts... well, first, it's not like I can afford to buy any, but I'm definitely not in the mood to give any. True, when she saw a painting she liked, I took a picture of it (and the plaque next to it) with my phone, but it was like a reflex. I don't plan to get it for her. Maybe if we're together by Christmas (and/or the moon has fallen out of the sky, which is probably just as likely)....

The whole thing about being cheerful, getting out and doing stuff, and "moving on" is an incredible bitch. I do feel I was pretty cheerful on Sunday (at least for me), and I didn't make snarky little references to the situation, so hurrah for me. As for getting out of the house, well, I'm doing my group(s) stuff and visiting my mom and friends every other weekend. It's not much, but it's hard to get up off my ass. Today, for instance, I'm really feeling down and not wanting to do anything -- quite in violation of "Take care of you." It's hard to battle this tide.

One thing I mentioned to her was the possibility of having to move in with my mom (which I dread, not because of my mom per se (because we get along great), but because (a) it'd be "her house, her rules," and it'd be like being a teenager again; and mostly (b) I'd be an hour and a half away from my kid and, for that matter, my spouse). My wife's facial expression was like, "Oh, don't say that!" I genuinely think she doesn't want us to have to leave the apartment. But I tend to think it's sort of about the "cake and eating it" thing. In other words, it's easier to have me nearby while she's dithering.

The part in the 180 that I really want to make myself listen to is the thing about "your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write." I don't know what actions these might be, but it *sounds* like a good idea. I figure on starting by initiating contact as rarely as possible, and then only -- as you say -- for stuff involving the kid and finances.

Edie:

This is a fantastic opportunity for you to get to know yourself, Smoky, but you seem resolutely focused against that, and instead completely focused on your wife's needs and doings.

Believe me, it feels that way to me, too. I'm just so used to "being supportive" of her, you know? That, coupled with the fact that I cannot cannot cannot stop thinking about her and the situation... well, I'm finding it hard to make my mind work correctly.

Long term residents of Kodak Island have a certain arrogance, that they know best for others, and don't seem able to question their own motivations and selfishness about being needed. The island itself is of course quite lost, is blown mercilessly by all the elements, its residents just have to hang on to find out where they are going.

I do question my own motives. There's the fact that I love her, know she loves me, and truly believe we should be together, but ask myself how much of this is fear that we *won't* be together, or that I'll be alone? How much of my motivation is selfish, or about my own depression and other internal stuff? How much of it is simply wanting the return of something like a status quo? I just don't know. I've loved her so much, and for so long, that I tend to feel certain that it's about the love, but... well, I question pretty much everything now. (Thanks, life. Thanks, wife.)

crisp:

Smoky- I am sooooo sad for you. There is a double whammy going on here. She is dumping on you and you are dumping on yourself. Almost everyone has a period of paralysis after discovery where indecision and begging is commonplace.

Your prolonged niceness and cake allowance/allotment is outside of ordinary. I keep expecting you to post something to the effect that you have finally had enough and will not take it anymore. Unfortunately, that post has yet to come.

Tell me about it.

Clearly I'm way inside my own head these days, but sometimes I'm able to catch a glimpse of how I must look to someone who's *outside* my own head, and I think I must look like a sap or an idiot or whatever. I definitely feel there's too much I don't understand.

I will give you a ray of hope though. I predict that you do have a viable chance of R with your WW. But to do it you have to move in a different direction; one that others have been gently advocating. Dump her and work on yourself. Go no contact and get yourself in a position where you truly know what and/or if you need or even want that damaged woman. At that point, it is likely she will have been banging at your door asking for a second chance.

At this point, she has shown no interest in you (in that way) and your "niceness" is very unappealing. She has her BF and her security blanket. Rip that blanket away and you will be helping YOURSELF and (indirectly) her.

I feel like I can't bring myself to just dump her, though I'm open to the notion that somewhere up the line I can ask myself, "Why the hell would I want back in?" I'm so used to being patient with her, and still so hopeful, however foolish that may be.

Believe me, I do not tell myself, "I'm right, and all you people are wrong." I don't like the way it feels to be resolutely acting in a way that I would almost certainly advise against if I saw someone else behaving in the same way. It feels like the wiser parts of my brain are locked off, and it's all about how I feel rather than how I should behave.