SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

saveus, All I'll say is just keep building on this momentum you've started since standing your ground. Getting your ducks in a row, one task at a time, is adding to that momentum.

Hi Tren0R201, that very same thought occurred to me a little while ago.

I've not avoided the OM though he's kept a low profile (we cross paths usually at our kids' club). I had a rather unsatisfactory confrontation with him a couple of weeks ago.

Got to say though, I don't think it takes much balls at all myself. In fact I'd say he's a coward and only being more up front now as he knows I know. And he's growing desperate - this bit wasn't in the plan at all. My WW is meant to have left by now.

@JDuff: I plan to. I'll see a solicitor very soon.

You've found that it works to some extent when you tell her the marriage is over if you catch her sleeping with the OM again.

You can't baby-sit her while you're out.

Certainly there's progress here, but progress toward what? You stopped her from one instance of having sex with the OM, out in the open.

Think about it. What does the OM's illness have to do with your marriage? All of a sudden you've acquired another family member here.

Her goal seems to be to have an open marriage. The defensiveness indicates she finds nothing wrong with her goal. In her mind, you are not her top priority.

You keep asking her to consider your feelings. That doesn't register with her. Yesterday, she told you she would go out and sleep with this man. You stood up and told her she couldn't. She seems to resent that, find that unreasonable.

Your feelings are the furthest thing from her mind right now. When you tell her about the pain she's causing by having an affair, her mind is elsewhere. She doesn't care. She will not empathize with you.

So where does that put you? You aren't married. She left the marriage a long time ago. You are open to reconciliation. She isn't. She listens to ultimatums, but her motivation is purely selfish and ultimatums don't fix problems.

I don't know what you should do here. I just feel bad for you because she is hanging on to this illusion of being married, twisting the knife deeper and deeper every day. This will eventually kill your love for her, but it's a slow, painful death.

You could try saying this: "Right now we're not married, but I still feel love and that's the only reason we're not getting lawyers and working on a divorce settlement. Every day this continues, my love for you grows a little fainter. I can't watch you every second and I might not know when you email him or even when you see him. But I do know that since I discovered your affairs, not once have you considered my feelings in the slightest. That's how I know we're not married. That's not something you can fake. You can worry all you want that I'm going to kick you out and it's completely out of your control. But you're wrong. Every bit of this is your choice, not mine. I'm not kicking you out, you've already left and the only question is whether you have any interest in returning before the door closes.

I'm sorry Saveus but I just don't get it. While this is relatively new to you it is now 5 weeks after dday.... 5 weeks in which your wife is openly having an affair in front of your face. Until she agrees to absolute, 100%, transparent no contact then she is still fully in the affair.

It is time for you to get strong. It is time to fight for your marriage. It is time to no longer worry about what might happen if, for example, you tell your in-laws everything. She gets mad? So what?!? Your marriage is ALREADY OVER, my friend. Let her get mad - maybe it will clear her head!

If you want to see a sudden transformation in your wife and a realization of what she has in store - pack her stuff in hefty bags and throw her out of the house. Yes, it is possible that she might run off to him. But you know what? She is with him NOW!!!!! At least you know your answer and you don't have to have the knife slowly gut you over the next 6 months.

Or.... more likely, she'll decide that she doesn't want to leave (if she wanted to leave she would have left already, right?). Let her know that the only way she stays in the house is if she ends it - completely, immediately. If she says anything other than "Absolutely," show her the door. And mean it! Get up, open the door, and say, "Get the fuck out!" Let her know that if she doesn't leave immediately you're going to put up a sign outside the house that says, "My wife cheats!"

Get nasty. Show her that you mean business. For the past 5 weeks she has seen that you mean everything but that. When she sees that you are going to end the marriage - and that it is going to end ugly - and that she MUST make a decision.... I have a feeling that you will start getting results.

Look, I know how hard this is. We've all been through similar versions of it. But your wife is actively pissing on your leg. As Bigger puts it, she keeps punching you and you keep smiling while she cocks her fist again.

Stop allowing her to do this to you! Stand up for yourself and fight!

Your feelings are the furthest thing from her mind right now. When you tell her about the pain she's causing by having an affair, her mind is elsewhere. She doesn't care. She will not empathize with you.

Hence my point about empathy--it is the bedrock upon which reconciliation rests. Take it away and you can have all the transparency you want, but they will be mere motions. Eventually resentment will build. And why wouldn't it? If she is not experiencing deep pain as a result of having caused YOU pain--NOT HERSELF--then even actions have little to no significance, in my opinion. It is the crucial difference between remorse and regret.

These people are emotionally stunted--like a three-year-old in an adult's body. And as such, they are as self-centered as three-year-olds. Ignoring this is what kept me for so long in my fog, Saveus. I tried to "teach" her remorse, "teach" her empathy. I talked to her logically and intellectually ABOUT empathy, explaining to her about the depth of the pain she was causing me as I do with my young children. She stared at me with far away, dead eyes. Indeed, she was "elsewhere." She was gone. It was chilling to see in the face of the woman I loved.

This is a "dangerous" stage, as she will likely test your resolve, in the same way that an entitled child does. And that is what she is right now--an entitled child.

Beware of mistaking regret for remorse. In hindsight, when I caught my X and she pleaded and begged, wracked with sobs and I caved, backing off my declaration of divorce, she was the proverbial child caught with the cookie jar. She was regretful--not at all remorseful. Her act was for herself, and very very manipulative and seductive.

Strength. Watch her actions, as everyone here says (and told me too). Believe none of her words. None. Keep holding strong, Saveus. You have made yourself clear. The rest is up to her.

[This message edited by Abbondad at 3:41 PM, May 8th (Thursday)]

@LifeisCrazy: Without meaning to be pedantic, it's been 3 weeks since D-Day.

I AM fighting. More so than I'm probably putting over here. But yes, she IS using and abusing me, and I'm allowing her to get away with it. True.

No doubt one day I'll be getting frustrated at a newbie (because, like you, I want to help them) as it all seems so obvious what they should be doing.

I am listening and I'm starting to see the wood for the trees.

I've said a lot to my WW tonight. When my head clears again, I'll update you guys here.

@Abbondad: Loved reading that (as much as you can love reading anything on this site!). Trust me, I've sussed the difference and I've seen no remorse and no empathy. None. Some emotions dressed up as either but I've seen straight through those. Makes me angry, not sad.

Morning all,

So, last night. As you know, all day my WW was full of the joys of spring, without a care in the world. I stayed home again as I can (try to) work from home, our boy is still on penicillin meaning he can't go into school until mid-morning (if he doesn't have a temperature, which has been erratic), and my WW works from 7-11am. When I saw her, after midday, I could tell she was in a completely different mood from the night before. My sixth sense was telling me all was well in the A garden and she probably had been in touch with the OM (despite repeated denials) and may have even made a new plan to meet up. She just wanted to get in from work, lie on the sofa and watch Knots Landing (don't ask - if I didn't know better, I'd blame that show for the downfall in my wife's attitude to sleeping around!!). She didn't want to address the night before or anything else. I forced her to talk for all of five minutes and made a few, forcefully put, points (keeping consistent and on-message). But I was going to get precisely nowhere.

So, in the evening, I told her my parents now know. Her reaction was frankly fascinating (if not surprising). After saying, 'I knew it! I knew you'd told them!', she headed straight for, 'well, that's it then, we're done for!' and 'I thought we were getting somewhere' (what a JOKE!!!). Oh and, best of all, my behaviour in telling them was 'destructive'!!! (She used the very same word when I told her I'd snooped at her text messages).

Her next tac was to suggest I was a bad parent for discussing any of this with our DS in the house!!! Trust me, when I spoke with my mum yesterday morning, I made sure he was safe, happy (and watching Turbo - his current favourite film) in the living room, and I was upstairs, whispering into the phone. In other words, I made SURE he couldn't have overheard a thing. (And, in case anyone does think I wasn't looking after him, I kept calling downstairs and popping down to do things for him/check he was OK).

I mean, seriously, where do these cheating spouses get this stuff from???? This is the same woman who, I now know, took her AP into the disabled toilet at a pub we take our boy to all the time, where people know us, leaving our kids to amuse themselves!!! I mean, dear God, I'm supposed to take this crap from my wife??? That I'm being destructive???? That I'm not putting our son first????????

Anyway, the conversation got a little more heated but I didn't allow it to turn into an argument (and kept my cool whilst giving her a few home truths - waste of time, yes, but good for my soul).

All the while I stuck to my message of 'there's the door' and 'I'm not standing in your way - but if you go you are no longer my wife'. And that I felt it was a real shame she thinks her lies, betrayal and deception was more important than her life and her son and husband.

Very tellingly, she didn't flip her lid, she just kind of accepted the fact that my mum & dad now know. She wasn't happy about it and pulled her usual 'woe is me' argument (along the lines of, 'I've been one long disappointment to everyone since I was born, so what's new now', that kind of thing). My heart bleeds for her.

One more thing, my WW tried to suggest I sleep in our boy's lower bunk, and that I go to stay with my parents!!! I made it quite clear that the house in half hers/half mine but that as I've done precisely NOTHING wrong, I would be going nowhere! And, as she refuses point blank to move out of the marital (what a joke) bed, we are forced to sleep together right now. (On a related note, I could've easily initiated sex last night - I know, what's wrong with my head? - but I resisted the temptation, which I plan on keeping up).

I went up before my WW last night, to read in bed (mainly SI though I tried to switch off for five minutes) and chill out. I popped back down at one point and happened to see a text from the OM pop into my wife's iPhone (she had her back to me, lying on the sofa, and didn't hear me coming down the stairs). Her reaction was interesting, she kind of sighed in an irritated way, switched her phone off an put it face down into her lap. She didn't read it - then, at least. Not that that means much and is obviously open to interpretation.

What isn't ambiguous though is her lie this morning. On her way out the door to work, I asked if she'd heard from the OM. 'No', came the reply. I told her I knew she was lying, to which she made some sarcastic comment about me snooping on her texts (funny thing is, as she suspects I can't see the most recent messages, she won't have a clue HOW I knew she was lying). I threw at her '10pm, last night??', to which she said, 'you asked me about this morning, and I haven't heard from him this morning'!!! You couldn't make this up (except I know you've heard it all before).

I sent my WW a lengthy text on her drive to work (I know, but I had to get it off my chest) saying how SICK I am of the lies, how I am not prepared to put up with it ANY LONGER etc etc. And that I wouldn't be saying another word today as I'm getting on with my own day (work/seeing friends tonight). Basically I won't see her until tomorrow (or tonight in bed) and what she does in the meantime is HER CHOICE (she's by now clear of the consequences). I'd gladly type it up here if I had the time but I've got to go.

my advice about the lawyer wasnt meant that you all both go see one. more in a verbal slap and warning that YOU are - that you are taking an undefined next step, a serious one.

dont be surprised by WW responses to the points you made.

a play from their book is to act like a spoiled child. they make stupid threats that are irrational in an attempt to get you to back down (your parents, the texts, etc).

what you wife really wants is her cake and to eat it too. aka ... a cake eater. she wants to have the fun of the OM and the relationship there. she wants to have the home life she has always had with you and the family.

she resents your attempts to push her off the fence.

she resents the other mans attempts to push her off the fence.

you have to get her off the fence.

so far you have done a good job of drawing up boundaries. i know its hard.

but the longer she sits on that fence the less likely you two can ever reconcile. if you arent sure what to do yet (reconcile, dont know, separate, or divorce) ... thats normal. take your time to make up your mind. but ... the longer you leave her on that fence the more likely is that it goes towards divorce.

Saveus,

Having just read your last post I have taken two things from it:

1) Your words to her are the same words you've said before. Nothing is changing

2) You will see her in bed tonight. Please tell me you aren't still sharing a bed with her?

She's playing you like a fiddle and you're asking which tune. Where are the consequences to her actions.

Pleeeaaassse take heed of my experiences and those of everyone on here

@allatsea: I hear you but give me a chance!! I thought consistency of message was important too? Do you seriously think - even by what you know of my actions - that I am in way happy to share my wife? And yes, we are sharing a bed. She won't go (just like she won't leave the house) and what am I supposed to do? Physically manhandle her out of either or both?? And why should I go anywhere??

I will go and read your story now.

i have to ask, after she's shown you the kind of person she really is, do you still want her? honestly?

I would head to the lawyer not because I wanted to make a point, I'd head to the lawyer to see how quickly I could divorce her and keep as much custody as possible of my son.

there's a whole world of good women out there. You might be happy with one that doesn't treat you like shit.

i have to ask, after she's shown you the kind of person she really is, do you still want her? honestly?

Yes. Because I love her.

But - contrary to popular belief - I am no mug and won't settle for anything less than what we promised each other in our marriage vows.

@william: If I wasn't sitting in a pub treating myself to lunch (that's twice in 16 years now!), having just dropped my boy to school, I'd be on the phone to a couple of local solicitors right now. I'll be making an appointment for early next week, trust me.

OK, so I misunderstood the advice about going together (in retrospect, clearly a very dumb idea) but you seem to be suggesting (unlike others here) that I make my WW well aware that I've been. My gut reaction is I agree with this. I'm not game playing but it wouldn't hurt to try to knock her off the fence.

Good to hear you're not a mug Saveus. This is a brutal business and it's understandable that people don't know how to react to it right away.

I have tried to give you the advice to stand up for yourself as soon as possible. not because I think you should divorce, but because I believe it's the best chance you have for saving your marriage. I sometimes think "shock and awe" is the best chance to wake up a foggy wayward. They are thrown off the fence. When they wake up, they can actually see and respect that you were simply not tolerating the cheating behavior. But when you're hurting, it's hard not to try to reason with the person that you love, the person that was supposed to have your back. It's counter-intuitive to act strong and kick them off the fence.

it seems like it's a dangerous thing to be direct with them. what if they choose the AP? The thing is, if they choose the AP after you've told them you won't tolerate cheating, then they would have chosen the AP anyway. You were just a backup plan. And as many people have said, there are worse things than divorce. Sharing your spouse is unacceptable.

Hang in there, and

good luck.

[This message edited by mike7 at 7:04 AM, May 9th (Friday)]

Thanks mike7 and absolutely - if I could knock my WW off the fence this very afternoon - EVEN AT THE RISK OF HER RUNNING TO HER AP - I would do it. I've been trying to, over the last few days. But, as it blatantly obvious - none of us has control over any other human being on the planet, least of all our own spouses while they are so selfishly wrapped up in their As and Fogs.

That's why I'm thinking telling my WW when I've been to see a divorce solicitor (which I am doing regardless) might be a good idea. Thoughts?

I am no mug and won't settle for anything less than what we promised each other in our marriage vows.

too late.. she already broke the marriage vows and that marriage you had was over when she did. See a solicitor NOW! Get on with your life, if she hops off of the fence on your side, then that life can include her. If not, her loss. You sound like a great guy and I'm sure you wont have trouble finding someone that deserves you.

That's why I'm thinking telling my WW when I've been to see a divorce solicitor (which I am doing regardless) might be a good idea. Thoughts?

sure! anything you can do to wake her up. She needs to see reality. That you are moving forward. You don't have to scream and shout. But anything you can do to wake her up to the reality that she will be losing her family soon is a good idea.

Maybe after you see the solicitor you could calmly sit down with her and begin discussing dividing up the assets? Start discussing child custody.

see what she does when you do that..

Cheers spond. I am about to call a couple of solicitors right now, as a matter of fact. And the irony of what I wrote about marriage vows wasn't lost on me at the time. I feel exactly that way - hence why I haven't worn my wedding ring for several days & won't be putting it back on anytime soon.