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think my WW doesn't believe in a million years I'd even be thinking of seeing a lawyer...

And you did not think in a million years that your wife would be having an A and for the most part doing this out in the open with you knowing about it.

You are in a way fighting two people here. Your wife is deep in the fog of an affair, and that is bad enough. But you do not know what kinds of things the OM has in mind and or is telling your wife.

Your wife could see a lawyer herself without your knowledge, she might have done it already.

Of course you are not ready for D. But going to a lawyer to find out your rights and what you should be doing only helps you. Knowledge is power and at least talking to a lawyer will give you back some power that has been lost.

Affairs are like Vampires, you know like in an old horror picture when the Hero yanks the curtains down and the Vampire bursts into flames. Don't like the Affair? Burn it down, let the light of day shine, Tell everyone, make the affair an unpleasant place to be.

My God you guys make me feel like a pathetic, feeble, weakling. But obviously I need the tough love, I get it!!!!!!

It frankly pisses me off when I get accused of accepting my wife being in an A. Which is probably what you want to see - a lot more fire in my belly.

I'm not even scared any more of pushing my WW to the OM. I realise if she does that, she was already gone. It's more I haven't known what to do to push her off that fence.

You haven't heard our conversations/arguments, despite my best efforts to detail them here. But granted, however tough I think I'm being, my WW is disregarding my hurt and carrying on regardless. That said, I don't think she's slept with him again...

How preposterous is that??????? This is one, long sick joke. On me.

I'm seeing friends shortly. For all I know my wife has the OM at my house (she swears he's never been in and that she wouldn't ever do that, but I can't believe a word she says any more). But what do I do?? I'm going out as I rarely do these days. I'm trying to get on with my life.

I KNOW I have to force her off the fence. I'm still just not clear how. Am I just not listening?? Is my brain really fried!?? What the hell is wrong with me?????

Dude, it is tough love, nothing more. It is just a drumbeat to help you stay focused, because it is so easy to get sucked back in by the phoney emotional manipulations of a cake-eater.

Thanks MC_Jack. I'm not taking it personally, honestly. I'm just frustrated at myself that I don't see how to sort my immediate problem. Fast. That drumbeat is doing its job though. Please keep it up! I can take it!!

Please just remember that going to an attorney and getting information does not mean you are getting a divorce tomorrow. It is just an appointment....to get information....to decide if or when you come to that point who you would like to use. This is just getting knowledgable and getting your ducks in a row IN CASE you need to use it. Nothing else at this moment.

So many times you say "attorney" to BS's and they get freaked out. I would say to you just listen to what many people are saying and just do it for YOU. Thats it.

And too bad you don't have VAR at the house while you are gone so that you could hear what your WS is doing while you are gone. You may need to get one of those. FYI.

I'm not even scared any more of pushing my WW to the OM. I realise if she does that, she was already gone.

Dude.......by "lawyering up", you aren't pushing her toward the OM - she's already there... By filing for divorce - you are sending a message that you will NOT tolerate having your wife to openly date and sleep with other men...at least NOT while married to you.

I would not only make appointments seeking information for a divorce - I'd file the necessary papers to get one started......ASAP...

JMO...

Bufffalo

Once your wife spread her legs for another man, you have to demonstrate your dominance. if you don't, you're going to lose her.

I'm very late to this thread, saveus. Just discovered it and wished I could have been here earlier to give you support, but it looks like you're getting lots of it. Apologies in advance if I'm just beating a dead horse.

Haven't had the time to read all 12 pages but mike7's quote from page 1 really jumped out at me. I didn't do everything right at the beginning I'm sure, but one thing I did do right was go nuclear. I kicked some WW ass, in a figurative sense. I laid down the ground rules verbally and in writing and made it clear that anything less than 100% NC would be a dealbreaker. As it turns out there was one incident of broken NC, but even then she responded to an email of his to tell him to not contact her again, she wanted to heal her marriage. And still, I flipped over that one.

You know what happened? My wife really started spreading her legs then - for me. And that hasn't slowed down for 15 months now. OM got tossed to the curb like yesterday's garbage.

That may or may not happen in your case, but you have nothing to lose. Time to go into full alpha mode. Your wife meets your conditions or else. Her way of doing things has lead your marriage to the brink of ruin, so now she doesn't get to dictate.

And if she tells you to get lost? Then it was already over. But at least you stood up for yourself.

saveus, why are you still having conversations/arguments with her?

I don't think you should do this to "send a message." Your wife is clearly, from what you've written, not a message-driven person. She will react with her "woe is me" and "I've disappointed everyone" routines.

Her way of taking control of her life is not to take control of it. The OM wanted her, and that was intoxicating to her. She knows it's wrong. She doesn't particularly like or respect him. But his need is intoxicating.

When you tell her that you are meeting with solicitors, it will trigger her defensiveness in a very strong way. In a way, she likes decisions being made for her. This will set you up as the opponent in some sort of fight, and she will become more stubborn and irrational. She'll get a solicitor, and she'll dig in.

How do you "knock someone off a fence" when she's not on one? You want to stop this affair, and that's all you care about? Move. Leave the county, take her and your son with you. Doesn't mean she won't fall prey to the next pathetic guy who wants her.

But there are many reasons not to move, and I'm not recommending this course.

I get where you are. You don't want to be a doormat, and I don't think you are. But you haven't accepted that your wife doesn't think of marriage like you do. She will not respond logically as you would expect.

You're essentially saying to her right now, "bad wife... I don't want to do this, but you've forced me into it... I am seeing a solicitor... I don't want to divorce, but you're forcing me to look into it..." It's all read and react, like we tell (American) football players executing a play. Your wife doesn't care if you score a touchdown because she's not playing the same game.

It's good to see a solicitor, because you need to know your rights, and you need specific advice to questions like "how do I get this silly woman out of my bed" and "how do I ensure that I don't go bankrupt if we do divorce." But don't tell her, if you still haven't. She won't react the way you expect. I'm not recommending secretive. I'm just saying she has no interest in the subtlety of seeing a lawyer to gain information and perhaps wake her up. She's just going to see it as a strong step toward you becoming her enemy, and it will trigger her self-preservation, whiny, woe-is-me-I-better-dig-in self.

Yes, you love her. That's good. Please face the fact that you can't manipulate that side of the equation. Do what you need to do to help yourself and help your son. If she sees this and gets on board, great. But don't do things just because you think that will change her.

Your wife needs this outside validation from this OM. That makes her feel wanted and you think how odd, how can I make her think I want her.

But you are the old comfy slippers, she already won you over. She is so deep in compartmentalizing this whole thing she is really two people.

Stop being the old comfy slippers or make the OM stop wanting her.

Her words and promises are totally empty words and empty promises. She is NOT ready to quit the affair which means she is not ready to change yet.

You feel you have to make her change and I don't think you can. You can either let this affair play itself out which will most likely ruin any chance of R anyway or make it a hell of a long and miserable R or move on.

The bottom line is how long are you willing to sit by and let this affair play itself out.

It could take another year considering how easy it is for her.

There really is no way to force her off of the fence. It surprises me she hasn't even tried harder to hide this from you, that is the worst part.

If you are not afraid to push her to the OM, than just file divorce papers. I don't know the laws in your country, but some states here have alienation of affection laws where you can sue the WW and the OM for this. You might have something similar.

DO anything to make your wife realize this isn't some stupid romance novel or game anymore. This is real life. Words will not do it, she is not listening.

Who is paying for her phone where she gets all of these texts...you, turn off the phone! Make it harder for the OM and her.

Thanks everyone.

I'm starting to get it. I can't see how to push my wife off the fence as (a) she's probably already on the other side, and (b) there simply isn't any way to do it.

Demanding she decides between us doesn't work. Nor does telling her to pack her bags. In fact, NOTHING gets through to this shell of the woman I once loved. Probably not even receiving divorce papers - in fact, I'd put money on it.

To Sal1995, welcome to the, ahem, party & thanks for your input. Yes, I probably reacted all wrong back on Day 1. I practically forgave her there and then. I certainly made it clear I still loved her. I want to stand up for myself, believe me I do, but it's your 'or else' that bothers me. 'Or else' what?? All I can see is D. And I thought we'd all agreed that using the threat of solicitors was a no-no. So, I ask again, 'or else' what??? If it comes to D, I am more prepared mentally and emotionally than ever. But I feel I am painting myself into a corner as that is my only option - which is exactly what someone here told me NOT to do only a few days ago.

But I can easily see the weekend drifting by with no resolution (as if there could truly be one anyway) - not because I want that to happen NOR BECAUSE I'M ALLOWING OR ABIDING MY WW'S INFIDELITIES but because I cannot control my WW's actions. And, having just made the mistake of trying to talk to her at 5.30 in the morning (I have no idea why I'm still even trying, 5454real, you're right, I'm a fool), I can tell you now that nothing has changed in the last 24 hours. She's still calling the shots and showing ZERO empathy for me. (Who was it who posted here asking when it was that aliens had abducted his wife? I feel exactly the same way).

@craig2001: I'm grateful for the advice. It all sounds great but, again, how do you go about not being 'the old comfy slippers'? How do you 'make the OM stop wanting her', exactly?? I think what you are saying is what I'm realising, that I can't. Which means filing for D just came one huge step closer.

I have never felt so frustrated in all my life. Still, the wrought emotion of 2/3 weeks ago has been replaced by that and growing anger at how I'm being abused. By the one person I chose to give myself to for the rest of my life.

[This message edited by saveus at 12:27 AM, May 10th (Saturday)]

@Craig2001: Re her phone, not an option I'm afraid as she pays for it out of her own bank account. I just pay the mortgage (best part of £1000 a month) plus the gas/electric, council tax, water bills etc. Nothing that affects only her. Yes, I certainly ought to stop putting anything into our joint account. The bottom line is we are very hard-up at the moment, what with surviving month-by-month since the liquidation of the family business in 2011 then being made redundant at Christmas 2013. I've been taking home on average £1250/month since then, with 9/10s of that going just to keep a roof over our heads. How I'm supposed to work amidst all this, I don't know. I'm really struggling.

So, I ask again, 'or else' what??? If it comes to D, I am more prepared mentally and emotionally than ever. But I feel I am painting myself into a corner as that is my only option - which is exactly what someone here told me NOT to do only a few days ago.

There's no right or wrong way here, except violence toward her.

We all have had different experiences. But the bottom line is that wayward spouses need internal justification for their shitty behavior, and they construct defenses that are pretty much impossible to penetrate.

If I had it all to do again (and I wouldn't wish that on anyone, least of all myself), I don't know what I would have done differently. I made mistakes. I pleaded a little. I couldn't budge her on imagining a new life with the OM. But I'm glad I made mistakes and let a very unlovable person (at that time) know she was loved. I was very hurt. I eventually got better. OM might be "winning" right now, but you will win in the long run, with or without her (and it seems like it's going to be without).

It's not "or else" anything. You do what you need to do. Choose a solicitor you like and follow his or her advice every minute you can. I would advise choosing a solicitor who recommends you avoid court if you can - court cases are expensive and that means far less for both you and your wife and especially your son. I avoided court, and because of that I still have my house. I give my ex a reasonable amount of child support each month, and I think our son's doing well.

No need to surprise her with events. While I wouldn't tell her about the solicitor, I would give her a "head's up" if divorce papers were coming tomorrow, or something like that. Just start living your life as you will when she is not taking up space in your bed.

Maybe she'll figure things out, maybe she won't. But she's not in a marriage right now, and there's really nothing to discuss with her other than your son's needs.

It's no longer "or else" at all. You avoid painting yourself into a corner when you understand that your wife is not going to react logically to anything you say. Because she's not your wife right now.

Thanks again, Red Sox Nation.

The message is coming through loud & clear. I do feel the need to discuss things this weekend as everything is so up in the air. Both the OM and I are being left hanging (not that I feel ANY sympathy for him). Frankly, a part of me feels like they're welcome to each other. I wonder what would happen in a few months' time, once the 'glow' of the A wears off, and I've filed for divorce. But I'm not playing games. This is my - and my son's - life I'm dicing with here. Or rather, my wife already has.

I see myself in what you say about how you dealt with your own situation, in the early days. And the stupid thing is I KNOW none of it works. It has NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER. Other than to run myself into the ground even more than my WW already has.

So, I'll try to get through the weekend and not prompt a single conversation, other than about our son. The problem I've been fighting an internal battle with though is that that is probably just what she wants - the pressure off so she can just amble along, without a care in the world, with two men desiring her, all the while making no effort to change a thing.

And then I get told around here that I am accepting a situation where my wife is having her cake and eating it!!

But I'll do it. It's the last thing she expects. She expects me to be weak and to be in constant need of answers/a 'final decision'.

The only power I have this weekend is the 180. For me, of course, not to manipulate her. I went out last night - and didn't speak to my WW from my early morning text to when I got in at around 11.30pm. Nor did I spend my day (back at work for the first time in days) worrying myself silly about where my WW was or what she was doing.

(Incidentally, another major family problem blew up in the last couple of days, so working yesterday - bearing in mind it's a family business - was almost impossible. And my poor parents now have twice as much on their plates. I'm still glad I told them though I worry about the stress and worry it's causing them).

One last thing, I have a good feeling about the solicitor I'm seeing on Monday morning. I have experience of this company through work. The other two I called are looking like non-starters - one has no free consultation at all and want £295/hour or something, the other never called me back. But don't worry, I won't put all my eggs in one basket, nor am I committing to anything on Monday morning.

I do feel the need to discuss things this weekend as everything is so up in the air. Both the OM and I are being left hanging

Her actions speak for her. She can say whatever she wants. You know now that if she feels an ultimatum is coming, she'll go along with it.

You're no longer up in the air. You've landed... hard. Many affairs, upon discovery, end immediately. Many don't. She can say whatever she wants, but the bottom line is that she is in the latter category.

And then I get told around here that I am accepting a situation where my wife is having her cake and eating it!!

It's what she wants. I don't think you're letting her do that, though. She feels excitement from this. She does not want to make a choice here. Pushing her to make a choice seems to make her even more determined not to make one. You've said she's stubborn. This is where it manifests.

One last thing, I have a good feeling about the solicitor I'm seeing on Monday morning. I have experience of this company through work. The other two I called are looking like non-starters - one has no free consultation at all and want £295/hour or something, the other never called me back. But don't worry, I won't put all my eggs in one basket, nor am I committing to anything on Monday morning.

OK. If that good feeling persists, there's no harm in following through. I only met with one lawyer. My ex filed. A friend of mine (who has been through three divorces) told me the best lawyer in the area, without question, was this guy. I met him, and I liked his approach instantly. He told me what to expect. He told me he knew my ex's lawyer and exactly how to approach her. He told me he knew the court and why we were lucky to have a certain judge assigned. So I signed a retainer agreement that day. He was absolutely right about everything. And we got a fair settlement in a legal world where men are presumed the enemy in many cases.

One caution - it's tempting to chit-chat about this process, because it consumes your life. Chit-chat with lawyers is very, very expensive. Ask for advice - ask about anything, really. But don't waste time on tangents. Solicitors are there to guide you through a complex legal process, not to be your friend.

Saveus - wtf? You don't know what the "or else" is? It's Divorce.

If you're not prepared to Divorce her, regardless of the weird passive aggressive behavior she dishes out, you might as well accept the fact that you're going to share her. Of COURSE the "or else" is you will divorce.

Got it? If you aren't going to divorce her no matter what she does, then you're wasting your time. Your wife knows you won't divorce her so she's laughing at you. Why wouldn't she?

I'm sorry to say that. But if you're willing to stay married while she's cheating on you, what are you doing here? We don't know how to "convince" a cheating spouse to stop if there are no repercussions.

I have been following your thread, just not contributing since I don't have anything to add. Changing that right now. First of all: I'm sorry you're in this situation. I know how painful it is when the WSO is remorseful, I can't imagine how it would be to have something like yours in my plate.

Thing is: I think you hitted the nail in your last post. Your wife does as she wants because she knows you're bluffing, that you "or else" means nothing. You make hollow threats, and that's why you can't move her from the fence (at least towards your direction). If you say: "don't break NC", she's going to ask "or what? What are you going to do if I break NC?". I'm sorry for what I'm about to say but I've seen doormats being treated with more respect, because people know that even doormats deteriorate if they are mistreated. They'll stop being useful if you break them. But you won't. We know it, you know it and she knows it. She knows you're going to stay no matter what she does. Why would she give up on her fun? I wouldn't, (if I had that little respect for my partner, which will never happen). If I could get away with it, if I knew that you would be waiting for me at home, that's what I would do: lying just enough to get you to leave me alone and keep doing what I want. If people know you're happy with the crumbs, why should anyone give you more? Stop making ultimatums, especially the hollow ones, stop making threats no one takes seriously, and file for divorce. Without warnings. Not tuesday, not thursday, monday. And then you'll see some changes. Be ready to leave the marriage, that could be the only way to save it.

I know you're not going to listen, but I needed to add one more voice to this opinion. I hope you can see we want the best for you and that we're not doing this to hurt you.

[This message edited by majortom87 at 4:50 AM, May 10th (Saturday)]

Morning saveus,

But I feel I am painting myself into a corner as that is my only option - which is exactly what someone here told me NOT to do only a few days ago.

You haven’t painted yourself into a corner, she has put you there. It’s up to you how long you can put up with it.

This is my - and my son's - life I'm dicing with here. Or rather, my wife already has.

No. Not your life, or your son’s. Life WILL go on for you and, at some point, life WILL be good again. But it’s a long road back to happiness. One foot in front of the other and deal with the shit that will inevitably come your way. Meanwhile, it’s vitally important that you remain the constant in your son’s life. Whatever your WW does or says, you take the high road and remain calm around your son. Never run her down (or OM). He’s old enough to understand that people make choices – and this is hers. Your IC (a few sessions might be a good idea even though money is tight) will give you help and there are books you can refer to as well.

the pressure off so she can just amble along, without a care in the world, with two men desiring her, all the while making no effort to change a thing.

She is in La-la Land. Right now, she is under the illusion that she has control and she can choose. Take that fantasy away and slap her with reality.

And then I get told around here that I am accepting a situation where my wife is having her cake and eating it!!

You are behaving in a way you hope will make your WW sit up and smell the coffee. It hasn’t worked. You don’t want to lose her, you don’t want to lose your marriage, you don’t want to lose the secure home for your son. I’m sorry, but your WW doesn’t care right now. She is incapable of looking further than tomorrow, let alone the rest of her life.

One last thing, I have a good feeling about the solicitor I'm seeing on Monday morning. I have experience of this company through work.

I hope they have a department dealing in family law. Re-read my post about taking everything with you. Every minute costs money and you must get the best value from the meeting. Take a paper notepad to jot things down – you’ll be surprised how much you’ll forget. They will write to you and confirm everything that has been said, but you should still have your own notes.

From Red Sox:

Solicitors are there to guide you through a complex legal process, not to be your friend.

So stick to the business in hand at all times.

Do not tell your WW anything until you have completed the petition. Have a browse through this and read the stuff relevant to you:

https://www.gov.uk/browse/births-deaths-marriages/marriage-divorce

You are coming to a fork in the road. And you either choose the road to walk together, or you go your separate ways. The only way to knock her off the fence is to continue as if you are going to be divorced. The process can be stopped at any time, but that will be up to her.

It’s better to find out sooner rather than later. Don’t wait to see if it will “burn out”; if you allow her to believe you are in some way complicit by NOT serving papers, the situation will continue and she will continue to believe she has control. Divorce is the only "or else".

No one here can TELL you what to do – or when. But you have to think of yourself and your son. The guys here know what they are talking about. It hurts to read it, it hurts to know there is nothing unique about your situation or your WW’s behaviour, it hurts to the core of your soul, but know that everyone here has your best interests at heart.

Hi saveus. I can't add anything that hasn't already been said many times above. Wanted you to know that I'll be thinking of you and your son this weekend.

Sending you courage, strength, and positive mojo to get you through.

yop