SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

20yrs,

She told me honestly she could not quit her job...Her insistence with the job is that she does not have the same level of education as her peers and has overachieved. She fears she would never land an equivalent job with her resume/education. She is willing to expand the search outside of her current organization but will not quit without another job lined up. Financially for the family and for herself she cannot be out of work."

So, going by the above, your wife has invented the perfect excuse / reason for why she has to stay at that job, in that location, with that company, forever. Just a short walk down the corridor from the man who was her lover for a year and half.

I would find that situation extremely hard to live with.

Are you okay, and has there been any movement on the job front to get her out of there?

[This message edited by M1965 at 1:49 PM, July 8th (Saturday)]

Let me get this straight.

She values her job over her marriage?

In reality, she needs to resign immediately, whatever the consequences.

Stop tiptoeing around the obvious:

She needs to know that there are serious consequences to her actions.

She's getting by with a slap on the wrist--nc,etc.

Not to sound harsh, but her pain and remorse should at least equal the perceived pleasure of the affair.

Playing devoted wife at upcocoming events sounds like both of you are in a form of denial.

No pain, no real marital gain. Instead, just whistling in the dark and hoping for the best.

[This message edited by MidnightRun at 3:05 PM, July 8th (Saturday)]

sharkman

She'll never quit her job. I told you this months ago. Wait even one more day at your own peril.

She will not look for jobs outside this company, though she'll put on an Emmy-winning performance that she is.

Unfortunately this is just your standard-issue affair.

Your letter achieved nothing because she called your bluff

= = = = = = = = = = = = = =

m1965

So, going by the above, your wife has invented the perfect excuse / reason for why she has to stay at that job, in that location, with that company, forever. Just a short walk down the corridor from the man who was her lover for a year and half.

I would find that situation extremely hard to live with.

Are you okay, and has there been any movement on the job front to get her out of there?

hey sharkman, don't disagree that this is a standard or text book affair. Many things are right out of the cheaters handbook and my reactions are right out of BS 101. I hope knowing this is half the battle.

The letter achieved one thing really and that is reading Not just Friends. She seems to be taking it to heart. She talked about the importance of walls and windows and understands and is applying the concept. Building a wall aournd the family and says she will be proactive in avoiding her AP and saying no words, nothing.

The job search is another story. I do believe the applications are out there. The 'regional jobs' I will call them, that are in a completely different location from the current office are still in process (under review... many, many candidates). She has planted some seeds of doubt that these may not come through. Suggesting they likely already have the candidate picked. She is highly qualified, over qualified even, so would be frustrated if not at least called for an interview. I did poke around at some jobs outside of her current organization but it is very difficult to map her role over. She asked if there was anything in my office. I searched in our job posting tool but likely need to actually talk to a few people about whether there is a role that could fit her skills. Likely need to meet with a head hunter and get resume revised for the broader market.

The IC may be even more of a failure though. At the moment one session and done. She talked to the counselor and the counselor agreed we were doing the right things, reading books together and going to church. The counselor had not read a lot of books (any?) around this. The counselor confirmed with my wife that she no longer had feelings for the AP. felt this mitigated the current situation. I was a bit flabbergasted with this result. I expected them to delve into the reasons behind being able to lie, manipulate and risk everything for the AP. Additionally the issue of having the ability to continue doing this over and over again, day after day with no end in sight. A conversation will be had on this very soon.

Now as far as her being a conscientious, caring partner she continues to show significant changes. She is doing things, contributing like never before. If this is deception its emmy award winning as you suggest. I don't know, its a lot of effort to fool me and to what end? Risk everything again? She has been down that path before so I acknowledge its possible. She is on vacation now, for this week, so another week away from the AP. She does seem fearful that she doesn't deserve another chance and willing to work to prove herself. Again, she could be faking all of this 'progress' but that is not my sense.

There are obviously still things that need to be discussed. Little niggling things that a lot of folks see as red flags. I will not ignore these and I hope the book drives further discussion of this. The counselling miss-hit certainly being at the top of the list. Physical distance a close second. I will continue to work at strengthening my voice. I think I do likely need IC myself to face my co-dependency issues and work on strategies to break from them.

Again to her credit she seems to recognize and step in herself to break up and take away some of my co-dependent tendencies. Gee that makes me sound really f'd up. lol

Appreciate you guys chiming in on this. It is helpful to self reflect, share progress and remember that the work is not done. Certainly not in the clear and there are risks that need to be mitigated.

Cheers!

Hi 20yrs,

Thanks for the update, and I am glad you are bearing up okay.

It is good that you are working through “Not Just Friends” together, and hopefully some of the lessons about protecting the marriage and family will sink in.

“…and says she will be proactive in avoiding her AP and saying no words, nothing.”

The number of times that promise has been made and broken, including the event that started this thread, and those after it, makes me wonder if it is worth dropping the subject of NC. It has been broken several times, with no consequences, so what lesson has she learnt from that? She knows that NC can be broken repeatedly and life goes on exactly the same as before. A few apologies, another promise, and she's good to go until the next breach of NC is discovered.

Going beyond the issue of saying hello in the elevator, or having lunch together, has your wife figured out what she is going to do if the managers there decide to put her into another project with the OM? It happened before, so it can happen again. If they say it is a good career opportunity for her and that they need her to do it, what is she going to say without looking weird or awkward? "I just don't want to"? And if they say, "Well, we need for you to do this, so you are going to do it", what will she do? Will she come home and tell you, or will she say nothing, and when you discover it, shower you with excuses about how she couldn't tell you because you would be upset, it doesn't matter because she feels nothing for the OM, and yes, they did have to go to a couple of conventions together, but nothing happened, because they don't even like each other any more...

If the need for NC was genuinely understood, sincerely and honestly, then the need to be out of that place several weeks ago, not in a year’s time, would also have been understood and would have been acted upon. Your wife chose to cheat for a year and half and risk losing that job in an instant, in disgrace, damaging her resume and professional reputation, if her employers had found out about the affair. She would have been thrown out immediately, with no other job lined up, and a big black mark on her record. And she thought the affair was worth that risk for a year and a half. Yet now that you need her to leave that job, she says it is so valuable, unique, and once-in-a-lifetime important that finding anything similar is almost impossible. The contradiction in your wife’s changeable attitude to that job makes my head ache.

The bottom line here is that your wife has decided to stay in that job, with complete awareness of what her being there does to you. Sorry to be cynical, but it sounds like she is perfectly happy to stay there indefinitely, and she knows you won't go anywhere if she does. There can always be ‘good’ reasons found to remain there, while the far more important reason for leaving seems to have vanished off the radar. And if it isn't important now, won't it have even less urgency after she has been there for another six months, nine months, or a year? "But honey, it's been a year and a half, and you're fine, so why can't we just drop this?"

“The IC may be even more of a failure though. At the moment one session and done. She talked to the counselor and the counselor agreed we were doing the right things, reading books together and going to church. The counselor had not read a lot of books (any?) around this. The counselor confirmed with my wife that she no longer had feelings for the AP. felt this mitigated the current situation.”

One whole session with a counsellor who knew very little about infidelity, and that’s the counselling all done and dusted. And yet the counsellor knew enough to say that the things you are doing are ‘right’, nothing else is needed, and he/she was able to ‘confirm’ that your wife no longer has feelings for the OM, so everything is fine. Do you have any independent proof of that, or is this based solely on what your wife told you? It sounds like a very convenient session from her point of view.

“I was a bit flabbergasted with this result. I expected them to delve into the reasons behind being able to lie, manipulate and risk everything for the AP. Additionally the issue of having the ability to continue doing this over and over again, day after day with no end in sight. A conversation will be had on this very soon.”

In another post in this forum, annb quoted a piece of wisdom that is very appropriate here too: you cannot fix her, she has to want to fix herself.

Does attendance of a single counselling session look like the actions of someone committed to fixing themselves? Does it match up with the nice words she says about wanting to change?

Also, you really need to think about what you wrote about the lying and manipulation that went on during the affair. If it could be done then, is there any reason why it couldn't be done now, in relation to the reasons why NC was broken repeatedly and why it is impossible to leave that job? You need to reflect on your own words, because if she really wanted to be out of that job, she would be out of it by the end of the week.

And if you want any of those issues like the ability to deceive and manipulate to be mentioned and explored in counselling, you are going to have to physically be in the room at the same time and raise them yourself. Your wife has actively avoided counselling, and actively avoided dealing with the issues that you describe. She doesn’t want to talk about what she did, or how she was able to do it. She wants to rug-sweep and move on without addressing or changing anything. As with the job situation, what she is doing suits her, and not you.

“Now as far as her being a conscientious, caring partner she continues to show significant changes. She is doing things, contributing like never before. If this is deception its emmy award winning as you suggest. I don't know, its a lot of effort to fool me and to what end? Risk everything again? She has been down that path before so I acknowledge its possible.”

I know that I must sound negative and cynical in what I have written, so I have to be fair and acknowledge that if she is doing good and positive things, that is great, and nice to see. I do not think it is ‘deception’, but it is just window dressing and a distraction if your wife is not also doing the essential and important things that are needed to be done in the aftermath of infidelity. You have to balance what she chooses to do against the things that she deliberately chooses not to do. And currently, she is avoiding doing almost everything that people here would say she ought to be doing. Making more effort to be a caring partner is not in any way changing whatever mental mechanism enabled her to cheat for a year and a half and be fine with that, as you yourself say.

“She does seem fearful that she doesn't deserve another chance and willing to work to prove herself. Again, she could be faking all of this 'progress' but that is not my sense.”

Apologies for a brutal 2x4, but what did you 'sense' about her honesty and integrity in the year and a half that she came home and smiled at you during her affair?

20yrs, what ‘work’ and what real ‘progress’? You had to chase her repeatedly to go to counselling, and it resulted in just one session, which, according to your wife, explored and solved everything that needed investigating, and which concluded that everything is fine. And all that from a counsellor who knew very little about infidelity. When you have wanted to go back and ask your wife how she could have betrayed you for a year and a half, she won’t address it or discuss it, or examine how she let herself cheat, or take responsibility for that cheating. She wants to let herself off the hook and ‘not dwell in the past’. She thought that she and the OM just ‘made some bad decisions’. She promised and broke NC several times, and she is still working with the OM, and will be for the foreseeable future. The only things she is willing to do are the things she wants to do, not the real challenging ‘work’ on herself that clearly still needs to be done to turn her into a safe partner for the future. She seems to be working tirelessly to rug-sweep and distract attention from what she ought to be doing, which is ‘work’ of sorts, just not the sort that you need her to be doing.

I realise that all of this must sound negative, but it is actually meant with good, positive intent, to try and push things back in the direction that they should be going in. Maybe I should butt out, but it actually distresses me to see the amount of effort your wife puts into avoiding the stuff that needs doing, and the effect that it has on you.

If you feel you have some co-dependency issues, it is great that you are getting IC, and there seem to be some good books around that cover the subject that you can also read. That certainly doesn’t make you f’d up, everyone has stuff they could change or improve about themselves, and hats off to you if you have identified something that you want to change.

If your wife feels that a single IC session is all that is required for her, then maybe you could try MC, where you are both in the room together, so that you can raise the issues that you want explored, explained, and ‘fixed’. And if your MC says you should forget it all and just move on, find another MC. There seem to be quite a few out there who find it easier to rug-sweep than tackle the tough issues, but those are the issues that truly have to be resolved if a cheater is ever going to truly change the broken part of them that enabled them to cheat. You seem to know that, so please, 20yrs, keep pushing for it. If your wife is truly willing to work to redeem herself, she will be willing to do it for you.

What bothers me about much of what has happened so far is that your needs and wants have been pushed to the back, when they ought to be front and center, because you are the person who is trying to recover from infidelity and who wants reassurance that that your wife is not going to bring it into your life again. There is nothing unreasonable in that, and you should push, and keep pushing for it, until you have the things you need.

Listen, I mean you well, I want things to work for you, and I know you have been through a horrible, disappointing, and challenging time. What everyone would like to see for you is your wife doing the real work on herself that will help to make her ‘safe’ for you in future. You and the kids deserve that.

[This message edited by M1965 at 3:30 AM, July 13th (Thursday)]

Never watch what they say. Always watch what they do.

Her actions? Sorry, brother, but I am just not buying her work cover.

Ultimately, you are the one enabling it to continue. Clearly you can live with it.

Good luck.

She continued to put her job over your feelings, saw one crappy therapist, is feigning remorse and has read a book or two.

Please shoot NotPerfect5 a PM to ask him how this process went for him. Look at the front page - there are two "should have listened to you guys" posts. There could probably be a lot more.

I'm not saying that she is currently in the affair at this time. The issue is that even if she's not, she's still seeing him all day and lying to you about it. She still values her job over you.

What's VERY common at this point is "the affair going on simmer". She knows she's caught. Her instincts tell her to play it safe so that she can cake eat again in the future. It might go for a few weeks or even a few months but he'll walk by her in the hallway and give her a wry smile and say hi. A few days later he'll bring her a bottle of water at her desk - "hey, I was going to the kitchen for some water and figured you'd want one". Or worse, she'll do that. Can you guess how it progresses from here?

Here's a 2x4 - she was in a multi-year emotional relationship with this guy. There were many times when you were waiting home for her in an empty bed when their naked bodies were joined as man and wife in bed. It was not just sex. She was and still may be in love with him. What makes her promises to you any more worthwhile than her promises to him. Whose to say when he came up to her in the hallway and she said "yeah, he's crazy but I can't risk it. You just need to lay low".

There is LITERALLY no way for you to verify that she didn't say this which is why she needs to leave her position right now. Simply put it's a consequence of her actions.

She's not getting a new job. Hell you said yourself she said that there were some jobs that she couldn't take because she was "overqualified". Her previous excuse was that she couldn't leave her job because of the security that it represents in the event that you divorce. Well which one is it? Is her marriage not even kind of worth taking a (debatable) micro-step back in her career? Hell that might be the smallest consequence in the history of the world seeing to this point she's kept her husband, her reputation, her job and her boyfriend.

20yrs, could you call the therapist she saw and ask why they won't be seeing her again? It's possible that what she says is true but highly unlikely. Even if a therapist thinks the infidelity is a non-issue, they typically look for other topics to explore. I don't believe that your WW was found to be the pinnacle of mental health in one session. The shortest therapy experience I have heard of where the therapist genuinely thought the reason that the patient came in for wasn't a problem was 3 sessions.

In the event that she is telling the truth, you need to stress to her that you are unhappy with the lack of boundaries and care for your feelings she has shown recently and that goes much deeper than never doing it again. Tell her you need to know WHY she had the A and why she risked everything a second time. Make therapy a non-negotiable part of R. Either she does it and gets some answers or R ends, you 180, and you think long and hard about separating/D.

You don't have to get a D right away if she refuses but if she doesn't do this, one of two things will happen. She will either break NC again, cheat again, or never follow through on the job change that will leave you feeling unsafe, resentful, and suspicious indefinitely. Even if this doesn't happen, she will declare herself magically cured in a few months and be upset that you're still in pain. I have seen this happen over and over again with WSes who have a bad track record and won't get serious about therapy and fixing the underlying issues to their infidelity.

It may be hard to imagine but you're still at risk of D even if she never cheats again and changes jobs if she doesn't follow through on becoming a safe partner. She could initiate a D herself because she's done dealing with the consequences you will still be experiencing because of her infidelity. There are BSes in the D/S forum right now getting a D they never wanted because their WS didn't cheat again but didn't do the work and decided they didn't want the BS that they broke. You could also get stronger and realize it's just not worth it if she won't show you respect and consideration. Many BSes will wake up one day years into R and decide they're done with the M especially if their WS didn't do the work. Coasting through R by yourself while your WS begrudgingly checks things off of a list does not guarantee that your M will last no matter how dedicated she is today or how dedicated you are so don't be afraid to stand up and make demands because at this point the odds are against you and you aren't losing anything by putting your M on the line.

20yrsin.

I gotta admit, your thread takes up about 50% of the brain cells that I designate for thinking about SI stories. Not sure what it is about you. Perhaps some frustration on my part that I can't somehow inhabit your body and make you say some of the things that I believe would allow you to take control of your life, path forward and happiness. But that's my issue to work on, not yours.

As always you are getting good advice from the brain trust here. Please read and re-read your thread occasionally. Perhaps something that was said in the past that you didn't connect with then will now become helpful.

I also want to give you some praise. You are a long way from where you were when you first posted. And progress has been made. At the very least you are now voicing your concerns to her. I think that's positive. And you both taking time nightly to read Not Just Friends together is time well spent.

While it's great she's learning about walls there are so many other sides of infidelity she needs to think about. You should read "How to Help your spouse Heal from your Affair" together next.

I want you to know that I don't feel, from what you write, that you voice your pain very well to her. You come off as a very stoic person. I don't feel a lot of emotion there. Do you think she does? Do you think she knows how much she hurt you? Maybe she's even hurt a bit that her actions didn't hurt you more. Ridiculous I know. But seriously, maybe the little bit of communication you have started to convey recently has surprised her that you even cared what she did.

That's why showing your hurt is important. I definitely think you need IC, not just to work thru your pain but to figure out how to convey your pain to her.

But with all that said, the main point I want to make with this post is to ask you, WHAT DO YOU WANT? What is the end game for you? I really think you need to figure that out. And the related question you need to answer is WHAT ARE YOU WILLING TO DO IF YOU DONT GET IT.

So in different categories let's try some examples:

NC: Do you want your WW never to see the AP ever again? Seriously what is reasonable to you? Can they work together? Can they work together for another week? Month? Year? Decade? Maybe you can live with her seeing this man every day until she retires. Some might be. I couldn't. But I'm not you.

If they stop working together can they still text or chat on the phone occasionally? Can they have lunch every now and then to catch up? Can they go to the movies or out to dinner? Can they make out in the car every few months? Can they meet at a hotel and fuck? How about a cuckold situation where she steps out sexually and just tells you about it? Open marriage? Some are successful knowing that their spouse is there for them even when each partner is being sexual with others.

So What are your boundaries in this area for you to stay in this marriage? You need to define them for you. How can she know if you don't know.

Now once you define this you need to define the ramifications for her failing to stay within these boundaries. And you need to stick with those ramifications. Maybe for breaking your definition of NC the penalty is a sad look from you. Or maybe you'll just yell. Or maybe you'll write her a nasty letter. Or maybe you will expose her A to a close friend or family member of yours. Or maybe to one of hers. Or maybe you'll leave for a night. Or a week. Or a month. Or a year. Or you'll divorce and leave forever.

I will tell you the stronger the penalty, the harder it will be to break the boundary.

I will also recommend that you forget any penalty except divorce. In other words figure out which of the above boundaries will cause you to divorce her and then communicate that because any of the lesser penalties for lesser infractions will probably have little effect.

So define what you can live with and the penalty for her going past what you can live with and stick to it.

IC

Same concept. Can you live with her never exploring what caused her to do this? Maybe you think you can live with the fact that she didn't do the real soul searching that others here have done to figure out why stepping outside their vows was so easy. Maybe you both can get away with the next 20 30 40 years without another DDay on this path. . Or maybe you can never feel safe again unless she does months or years of analysis to discover why she didn't think about how this hurt you.

Again Once you figure out the boundary, figure out the level at which you would make a stay vs go decision and stick to it.

Remorse

I said you sound so stoic... well the way you describe her is the same. We never hear about her crying. Not even for herself. What do you need to hear to think that she's someone that is a candidate to even try R.

Is she sick to her stomach when she thinks about the fact that she exchanged bodily fluids to someone other than her husband or does she seem to daydream about it? Does she cry that she hurt you so or not even try to understand your pain? Does she want to tell others about her actions so they can help her ensure it doesn't repeat or does she want to keep it private just between the two of you. Does she try to read everything she can about how to make herself better and help you heal or does she want to not think about it too much? Does she think the AP is a POS that helped her head down a dark path or just think as him as a real good guy that she went too far with?

Again, at what point of lack of remorse do you leave? Figure it out and stick to it.

Healing

How committed is she to ensure you heal as much as you can? Does she check in with you without you prompting her? Does she show you affection or shy away from any contact? Does she tell you how she is going to become a safe partner for you? Has she written you a letter of remorse that includes:

- how sorry she is for what she has done

- why she thinks it happened

- how she would have felt if you had been the one to do this

- what she will do to ensure this never happens again

- how she knows what she did will change your relationship forever

- how she knows that she has put you in a terrible position of now having to monitor her for the rest of your lives.

And most important has she told you why she decided to stay with you instead of leaving you for the other man? I mean seriously, what is it about you that made her stay. Is it only because she feels guilty about what she did or are there things about you that make her quiver when you get near that she can't live without.

Again, how much Healing assistance do you need to feel from her in order to not leave? Figure it out and stick to it.

----------

20yrsin I will tell you for me, I would have said if I don't feel strong full on remorse I would file for D and leave. Life is short and I don't want to waste my time working on R with someone that can't understand how they hurt me so.

And if I did feel remorse I then would require full NC. Ghosting. That would mean if you want to be with me, you quit your job. And you never have contact with the AP again. If you can't find a new one right away. Maybe you go back to school to get the degrees you say you need. I know we may struggle but if you truly want to be with me it will be worth it. So if you can't leave the job with the AP then I'll be leaving.

As for IC I would require at least a year of once a week sessions with a specialist in infidelity. Not to confirm that we are doing the right emotional exercises but to really find out what made her do this and fix it. And I will be in IC too and then after we have both been doing that for a few months (and our ICs say ok) we start MC. To me if that is not agreed to I'll be sending the D papers next week.

And finally in healing I need to know that your goal is to make me feel safe again. That means the normal boundaries for most people are not enough for you as WW anymore since you now have a track record of bursting beyond them. You need to set these boundaries eagerly to prove that you are committed to me. You need to initiate discussions about the A with me. I hope you really do care about me cuz this shit isn't easy and I'm no longer the happy go lucky person any more because of your actions. Are you still going to love me when I am sad all the time? Again if u cannot agree to this we might as well go our separate ways right now.

----------

But 20yrsin. We are NOT you. Only you can decide what levels of commitment you need to see from your WW and what level of penalty you are comfortable in laying down. For you maybe D is off the table. If so, I dont think you can ever find happiness because she'll know that no real ramifications exist for poor behavior. At that point you should expect a lifetime of turning the other way when she is discovered back with this OM or with another.

Personally I think you should meet with the lawyer and have the D papers drawn up and ready to serve at your direction.

Then I would define my boundaries and the ramifications. Use my examples above. There are others too. I and others here have posted them in your thread. I may PM them again to you.

Document them and review them with her.

But if one of the ramifications is D then you have to be serious about it. You can't just say it and not be ready to pull the trigger. To make it real You can even show her the sample papers that will be used if she decides to go past those walls.

As always I wish you good luck in your pursuit of happiness.

I hope this helped.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 4:54 AM, July 13th (Thursday)]

Sorry I am late to the thread, but read through this last night.

I think you are absolutely correct to address your co-dependency tendencies. My self BTDT and have several T-shirts.

I think you have a few examples that you can look back on and see that your reluctance to "rock the boat," was not as bad as you made it out to be in your mind.

FWIW you've set boundaries and your W has crossed them. While this seems to be lurking underneath really two things are happening here.

1. Your W is being taught there aren't really any consequences for breaking these boundaries. She is acting like a child and testing your boundaries to see how far she can push you. I hope I am wrong, but she is trying to figure out her mistake so she could do this in the future and not get caught.

2. Your self respect takes a hit whenever you don't enforce the boundaries you set for yourself. Further your W more than likely respects you less when you don't implement these consequences.

Look man. I get I really do. Being co-dependent and not rocking the boat was all I knew and being anything different was beyond scary. At times it felt like a self betrayal to who I was.

Your W need to hit rock bottom before she will "want" to change versus being coerced into making changes. She needs to see that she will lose her family before she will dive into fixing herself. Right not she is just doing enough to keep you from Ding her.

She hopes if she can keep this dynamic going long enough you will give up and agree to sweep this under the rug.

The way I see you really have two choices neither are very good (welcome to infidelity, right ?)

You need to implement a 180 (look in the healing library) and stick to it. Take that time to figure out what you really want

Two is file for Separation and Divorce. This would include exposing her A in your mutual circles. Mostly to let everyone know you are not abandoning your family and hopefully family and friends would support her.

She is playing a game with you even though neither of know you are playing. The only way to win that game is not to play.

FWIW I am reconciled with my W and I am happy again. It took my W hitting rock bottom and finding the motivation to work on herself and get better for herself. Any time she did for me, the kids or our M she failed. Her heart was not in it and the results showed that.

I think you need to keep your Aug 1st deadline and at least schedule the mediator. Right now she is suspending the belief that you would go through with it.

My W started to her descent to rock bottom when my attorney's invoice showed up at my house (rookie mistake send those to a relatives or office, not mutual residence). She broke and it was not pretty. I do think without that "realization" that our M was going to end over her A did she suddenly realize she needed help.

For all your are feeling man, this does get better. Great even. One day you can look back on this time in your life and see yourself as strong. Further you will be less naive and your happiness will come from within and not the people around you. The people around you can add to it, but they should not be the only source. KWIM ?

Take Care of yourself.

Just a quick word of warning.

There is another reason why it's imperative that she leave her job - immediately. The reason is YOU.

A year from now, five years from now, you're going to look back on these past few months and reflect on how you handled this period of time... and what HER response was to your needs.

The fact is, she had an affair. You deserve a certain level of accommodation and leaving direct interaction with an AP should be the very least she can do. We all understand that it's hard to leave a job and there are a lot of nuances to every situation. That, however, is no excuse. If you want to remain with the person you cheated on then this should be a no-questions-asked action on her part.

My concern here is not so much the affair rekindling (although, from your point of view, you always should have a watchful eye). The far bigger concern - coming from someone 5 1/2 years out - is how you're going to feel about yourself down the road. You're going to have times when you say to yourself, or to her, "I kept our marriage together after your affair... and you couldn't even quit your job for me." You will kick yourself repeatedly for not being more decisive in these early days, particularly on subjects that are clear boundary violations.

Take it from me, the self-loathing that occurs years down the road is awful. In that respect, I so wish I had found SI earlier so somebody could have told me that I was being far too passive. I may not have agreed (we all have our reasons for not dropping the hammer) but at least I would have been warned. There is a part of me that HATES myself for not having laid out non-negotiable factors to base our reconciliation. There is ZERO question that not working with the AP in any way, shape, or form would have been WAY HIGH on my list.

When they work together only bad things can happen.

Good luck.

[This message edited by LifeisCrazy at 10:15 AM, July 13th (Thursday)]

LifeisCrazy is spot-on.

I have shared this story several times:

I managed a guy who had an office affair at my place of work. The woman (a good friend of mine) was in another department and another building. The man’s wife found out and he ended the affair as they tried to reconcile. I know for a fact the affair ended. I first learned of the affair after it was over and the OW told me it was completely over.

On a daily basis, they had no need to meet at work, other than possibly seeing each other in the canteen.

The WH told me that despite his best efforts and a total commitment from both him and his BW then the marriage did not start reconciling until about 6 months after d-day when the OW resigned and changed jobs. This despite the affair having been totally over and there had been no contact whatsoever all the time.

R is hard. It’s really tough. And the pressure of her working with him is adding pressure to you. We often compare reconciliation to a marathon. By choosing her job she’s making you run that marathon with a Steinway concert piano taped to both of your legs. At best, it’s going to delay your time to the end-goal, but even more likely it’s going to make you give up before you even reach the half-way line.

I'm going to throw something out.....try hypnosis. My fiancé did and we both got a lot of answers. That or a poly. It bugged me thinking she might still be in love. The hypnosis answered my concerns. It also addressed many of the why's. Not all however. Just my 2 cents pal.

Slight T/J...

Look at the front page - there are two "should have listened to you guys" posts

Sharkman, I guess, one of the topics you are referring to is mine. It is actually about how I listened to SI and discovered ongoing A.

The moral of the story - LISTEN TO SI.

20yrs, one question:

How she reacts when you lash out at her in anger?

If you don't, then do, just to test her. Play some mind movies in your head, with graphic details. Work yourself up. Get pissed off. Lash at her. Call her names, even. Explain that it is the pain that is making you to do this.

Report her reactions here.

Sorry, if you already described that here before - I've read all of your thread, bus it was some time ago, don't remember everything.

Thank you all for the feedback, it is appreciated. I think the suggestion to read this whole thing over is good for me and I am doing that. As well as taking some time to absorb these most recent posts. I felt some strength from the discourse and I was able to raise the topics of IC and work location again. It wasn't well planned out on my part so I am not sure I accomplished much but the act of having the conversation was good. It is helping me be more comfortable lifting up the rug so to speak.

We had a 'back and forth' about the 'why' of it all and she said that she has tried to explain it several time and that her 'reason' hasn't changed. She was broken and in a bad place and took the easy way out by escaping. After D-day and much reading and self reflection she feels she is in a different place. She knows what she should have done differently and would do that now. She would seek help from friends, family, talk through her issues not run from them. She does not want to dwell on the past but understands that there is still a need for me to understand things and heal.

A few things I read in NJF that helped me was the idea of training your mind to think about the pain or worry at a set time and to park those thoughts other times. Also to start to document your questions and bring them up when you are both in a good frame of mind. I am thinking for us it would be valuable to have an appointed time to discuss questions, the reading and other items. It would help have an ongoing dialogue about my concerns with IC, job location and other questions about the past.

We did start to talk about certain moments in the affair but that wasn't my agenda and we didn't delve too deeply. She shared again that when they were away together for 5 days she had a 'breakdown' once the conference ended and they were vacationing. She was overcome with guilt and they 'broke up'. My question was why 2 weeks later did you go back to him? This is actually my question through out the affair period. If you felt sick, guilty, awful why did you continue? She said she felt trapped and she felt sorry for him. The AP had so many plans for them and she knew deep down that those things would never happen. This was an escape for her that she says she had become trapped in.

To me there are so many questions and wouldn't that be the thing to explore in IC. From her end she says she is so confident of what she wants. It’s the family, it’s the marriage. She has no doubt and no concern with no contact.

I told her I had written down my goals and she asked what they were. I shared them with her and the next day she said she was inspired to do the same. Her first goal was to be more present in the marriage and to embrace life long love and commitment. (Mine had nothing to do with marriage and were more 180 inspired)

This was meant to be a quick post and I would come back after reflecting on the whole thread. There is much to consider and I think the value for me in coming back to the thread was being prompted to action. I feel more confident that will continue moving forward and I am certainly thankful for the little pushes and encouragement here. 2*4s or otherwise.

And stevesn I am sorry I take up so much of your capacity lol. Your posts certainly impact me and give me much to consider. As do many here. And yes I understand my pace and stoicism, if you could call it that, tests the patience of many. As someone said early on, how does it feel banging your head off a post. I can attest it's not great. Taking a break from that every now and then, with a positive step, does feel pretty good though. So again, thanks for that.

[This message edited by 20yrsin at 12:58 AM, July 15th (Saturday)]

More later but just wanted to stop by and say thank you for a post that finally shows an inkling that you can do this work and have these types of discussions.

As usual it didn't go as far as I would hope but it had some real substance and for that I commend you.

I'm not being facetious. It can get frustrating wanting to help someone very badly and feel that you can but they won't seem to connect with what they are being told because, of course, you are not them and they are not you. They have to find their own path.

More later.

I too this about this thread a lot.

I was once almost fired from my first job. I worked my ass off. I came in early and left late. I worked hard. The problem was that in my effort to be a good employee I tried to do everything rather than what I was supposed to be doing.

That's what you are doing right now.

You keep on telling her that one of your boundaries is that she must leave her job. She just plain and simple doesn't give a shit about this request. She's lied to you about searching for a job. She's made silly excuses. She's not serious about it.

This is the type of behavior that caused her to have the affair in the first place.

She didn't have and continue the affair because she felt sorry for him. She did so because she really wanted to.

Hi 20yrs,

It sounds like you have been having some good and productive conversations, and that is great. It can be hard to plan them, because they can go off in so many directions, but having a basic agenda is always good.

“She was broken and in a bad place and took the easy way out by escaping.”

The affair was an ‘escape’ from a ‘bad place’? If I was in your position, I would want clarification of that, because there’s a ton of avoidance in that woolly language, and very little explanation. Did you notice her being ‘different’ in herself in the period before the affair? I think that is relevant to think about that, because if what your wife says is true, then she stopped communicating with you when she perceived problems in the relationship or sank into a depression, and embarked on the affair to – basically – cheer herself up. The questions that begs are:

- Why didn’t she communicate her feelings with you?

- How was an affair improving anything?

- Is your wife suggesting that she was in a broken bad place for a year and a half? If so, then having the affair clearly didn’t cure the blues, and yet it continued it for a long time after that must have been obvious.

- Who and what was she ‘escaping’? You? The marriage?

Personally, I get sense that the affair happened for much more basic, selfish, and obvious reasons (sexual attraction to the OM), but your wife does not want to admit that. The woolliness of the ‘broken’ ‘bad place’ ‘escape’ stuff seems like a smokescreen with nothing of any substance behind it. The whole ‘bad place’ thing, whatever that means, seems designed to garner sympathy, and make the affair seem less like plain old selfish cake-eating (and there are always elements of that in any affair); a simple case of “I had the hots for another guy and I didn’t let being married stop me”.

The reason I mention this is because laying a false veneer of ‘bad places’ over a simple, basic decision to cheat, means that the mechanics of deciding to cheat are not being worked on, or even admitted to. In a way, it is allowing the deceit of the affair to continue in the communications between you. A year and a half is a very long time to be ‘down’ and in a state of ‘escape’, which is why it does not ring true to me as a motivation for the affair.

However, for whatever reason the affair began, your wife had no problem maintaining a relationship with another man for a year and a half. That capacity or ability raises questions about her general attitude to the truth, her understanding of what marriage is supposed to be, and why deceit and betrayal are amongst her coping mechanisms in relationships. Those are issues where counselling could really help, and why you, and several of us here, hoped counselling would be a part of her healing.

“After D-day and much reading and self reflection she feels she is in a different place. She knows what she should have done differently and would do that now. She would seek help from friends, family, talk through her issues not run from them. She does not want to dwell on the past but understands that there is still a need for me to understand things and heal.”

That is good stuff, and it is exactly the work that counselling can really help with, but your wife is only seeing half the picture if she thinks that you are the only one who needs to heal in the aftermath of the affair. Yes, of course you are healing from the bomb that she dropped on you, and what the affair revealed about her, but it is equally important in the aftermath of an affair that a wayward spouse is ‘healed’ or ‘fixed’ so that the mechanism that allowed them to cheat is neutralised and disabled.

There is a significant contradiction between your wife’s words and actions in relation to being more open in future and discussing her problems with other people, because she has actively avoided counselling, and still is. This is not something to ignore, because if she is not willing to talk to a neutral third party NOW about how she enabled herself to have the affair, is she really going to tell her friends or her Mom that she wants to have sex with someone at work if the urge every returns in future?

The perception that she does not need counselling after a year and a half long affair indicates that your wife does not see anything in herself that needs fixing, which is also significant. Effectively, she is saying that as she is now in a ‘better place’, and does not feel like having sex with anyone else at the moment, everything is fine, and there is nothing to fix. That misses the point by a mile, because it assumes that the capacity to deceive for a year and a half does not need fixing. In fact, it is in both your best interests that that aspect of your wife’s behaviour is addressed and improved, because she needs to default to honesty in future, with you, and also the friends she says she will communicate with more openly.

Maybe the approach you can take to this is that what she is doing is great, but that counselling (with a better counsellor, who actually knows about infidelity) will be a positive boost for the efforts your wife is making. If she is still resistant, you could ask, “But what would it hurt to try it?” It is hard to see counselling doing anything negative, isn’t it? And if your wife is committed to being open and talking – as she says she is – this is a way to both practice and prove it, isn’t it? Another approach you could take if she sees no point to it is, “Would you do it for me?” Obviously, it is better if she goes into it with a genuine desire to change, but she may still make progress even if she thinks there is nothing that needs changing when the course of counselling begins. However, as I say, I think it would need to be with a better counsellor than the last one.

“A few things I read in NJF that helped me was the idea of training your mind to think about the pain or worry at a set time and to park those thoughts other times.”

That’s a really interesting idea. I am going to try that ‘scheduled thinking’ approach and see if I can make it work.

“Also to start to document your questions and bring them up when you are both in a good frame of mind. I am thinking for us it would be valuable to have an appointed time to discuss questions, the reading and other items. It would help have an ongoing dialogue about my concerns with IC, job location and other questions about the past.”

IC for you is good, I am sure everyone could benefit from it, but I think that perhaps these discussions would be better placed in MC sessions, with a good counsellor who has experience with infidelity. The reason I say that is that your wife is still resistant to having IC herself, and if she simply won’t do that, or goes into it with an uncooperative approach, it might not do much good. Also, you will have no idea what has been discussed in your wife’s IC sessions. If you can get her to go to MC with you – again, try the “Will you do this for me?” approach – both of you will be getting counselling, and you can make a list of all the things you want discussed, with the counsellor as a mediator. That way, you can be sure that your concerns are at least getting an airing, and a good counsellor will know how to get your wife to open up, and how to get round any smokescreens she may try to create.

“She shared again that when they were away together for 5 days she had a 'breakdown' once the conference ended and they were vacationing. She was overcome with guilt and they 'broke up'. My question was why 2 weeks later did you go back to him? This is actually my question through out the affair period. If you felt sick, guilty, awful why did you continue? She said she felt trapped and she felt sorry for him. The AP had so many plans for them and she knew deep down that those things would never happen. This was an escape for her that she says she had become trapped in.”

Again, the ‘escape’ element needs to be clarified, and also the ‘trap’ issue. I have to be honest, I do not really buy that. She may have felt some guilt about leading the guy on, and letting him think they had a future together, but feeling ‘sorry’ for a man is a total turn-off for women when it comes to sexual relationships, and it would have ended the affair very quickly if she felt any pity for him. ‘Pity’ and ‘sorry’ ain’t sexy. Pity and sorry do not sustain an active physical and emotional relationship for a year and a half. That is simply bullshit, and your wife is trying to portray herself as the poor victim of the affair she started and maintained for a long time. She was trapped into having sex with this guy repeatedly, for a whole year? Come off it. It was done because she enjoyed doing it, and she went back again because she had a hard time ending it.

The interesting thing that has been revealed is that while your wife was actively deceiving you at home, she was also actively deceiving the OM during the affair by letting him think that they had some kind of future together. Effectively, she was cheating on both you and the OM, deceiving both of you simultaneously because it suited her to do that. You were being deceived and minding the kids at home, and the OM was the person in a ‘trap’, thinking the affair was going somewhere when he was just being used. That your wife wishes to paint herself as the victim in this scenario is either delusion (if she genuinely believes it), or a blatant attempt to re-write history and avoid responsibility for her actions in deceiving both of you at once. Is it any wonder she does not want to examine or explain her actions in any depth in counselling, and desires instead to leave it all behind quickly without delving into it? However, it is entirely your call about what you want examined and fixed, and whether or not you are happy to go along with that.

“To me there are so many questions and wouldn't that be the thing to explore in IC. From her end she says she is so confident of what she wants. It’s the family, it’s the marriage. She has no doubt and no concern with no contact.”

You are exactly right. There is an awful lot that needs to be properly addressed in counselling, regardless of what your wife says about her aims for the future. The counselling is about figuring out how she enabled the affair, and her capacity for deceit and dishonesty, not affirming her plans for the future. Again, this is an attempt to dodge the problems, not address them.

No doubt and no concern with no contact, after breaking it several times, knowing the OM’s vacation plans, and continuing to work with him every day? On this one, you have ample evidence that the concept of NC has been deliberately misinterpreted, and that its breaking has been lied about repeatedly. The very first post in this thread was about this exact thing, and the troubling “I will contact you later” message that your wife sent the OM. What is apparent is that they are perfectly comfortable with one another, and that your wife does not see the OM as a bad guy. Does your wife really have any credibility on the subject anymore?

“I told her I had written down my goals and she asked what they were. I shared them with her and the next day she said she was inspired to do the same. Her first goal was to be more present in the marriage and to embrace life long love and commitment.”

As with so many statements made about the affair, those are nice words, but only time will tell if there is any real meaning to them. I hope that there is, for both your sakes, but you really need to take everything your wife says with a pinch of salt until her actions provide proof. And if there are things that you need her to do for your peace of mind, like enter counselling and leave that job, then you really must stick to your guns and insist they get done. And I think that MC would be a good idea, so that you can raise your issues with a neutral mediator present to control things and ensure that your questions get a full and proper response. I am not convinced that your wife will open up or be honest in IC, but in MC, you are there too, not relying on your wife’s word about what went on at the session, and what the conclusions were.

As a general counter-statement to any resistance you encounter about things you want your wife to do, “I need you to do this for me” is a hard one to wriggle out of. Do not get drawn into justifying it, nor explaining it, keep reverting to “I need you to do this for me.”

Personally, I get sense that the affair happened for much more basic, selfish, and obvious reasons (sexual attraction to the OM), but your wife does not want to admit that. The woolliness of the ‘broken’ ‘bad place’ ‘escape’ stuff seems like a smokescreen with nothing of any substance behind it. The whole ‘bad place’ thing, whatever that means, seems designed to garner sympathy, and make the affair seem less like plain old selfish cake-eating (and there are always elements of that in any affair); a simple case of “I had the hots for another guy and I didn’t let being married stop me”.

The reason I mention this is because laying a false veneer of ‘bad places’ over a simple, basic decision to cheat, means that the mechanics of deciding to cheat are not being worked on, or even admitted to. In a way, it is allowing the deceit of the affair to continue in the communications between you. A year and a half is a very long time to be ‘down’ and in a state of ‘escape’, which is why it does not ring true to me as a motivation for the affair.

However, for whatever reason the affair began, your wife had no problem maintaining a relationship with another man for a year and a half. That capacity or ability raises questions about her general attitude to the truth, her understanding of what marriage is supposed to be, and why deceit and betrayal are amongst her coping mechanisms in relationships. Those are issues where counselling could really help, and why you, and several of us here, hoped counselling would be a part of her healing.

20yrs,

Got back from vacation and came check in on you...

The above quote from M1965 is very, very good.

My WW had, for many reasons, been in a "bad place" and needed an "escape".

I do believe that affairs can all be classified as an "escape". They are an escape from the drudgery of life, an escape from responsibility, and an escape from authority of God and society.

But mainly they are an escape from one's self.

My wife has given me a long list of how she was broken, sick, exhausted, lost, and made crazy from mercury (from drilling on mercury fillings for 20 years). All that is true. I 100% believe that.

But there are others that are broken, sick, exhausted, lost and made crazy too, but they chose to NOT HAVE AN AFFAIR.

The difference between those whom are broken and righteous and those whom are broken and adulterous, is character.

When temptation comes around, and it always will, the only thing that can save us is our character and strength of will. Those that have good moral character are resistant to temptation and evil. Those who have poor character are much more susceptible to being corrupted. I referred to it as a "moral compass" and some refer to it as a "conscience".

What your wife, and my wife, is doing is pushing her character deficiencies onto common difficulties in life. There will always be trials. There will always be hard times and stress, and conflict, and disappointment. What you need and I need to know is when they are pushed to the limit and want to escape the "bad place" how will they do so? Will they have the strength of character to do what is right when they find themselves in that bad place again?

She needs to work on her character. Right now she is a lying, cheating, adulterer. It isn't just when she has some strange dick inside her, nor when she comes home to kiss you afterwards. She is a lying, cheating, adulterer until she changes her character so as to never, ever, ever, be one again. She should gag with nausea at the thought of having an affair, not squeal with glee. That's the difference. She is regretful that was caught and that there are consequences. That's a start.

But when that worthless piece-of-shit counselor she went to says she's all better, it's a fucking disgrace. That counselor needs to find a new job. Your WW should spend at least a year working on her character with a counselor that is pushing her hard to make core changes. Looking back at my wife's behavior, I can see that she had shitty character in other areas--lying, cheating, defiance of authority (running stop signs and red lights, speeding, etc.), dishonoring others, gossiping, being verbally, emotionally, and at times physically abusive to me and the children, the list goes on.

Because the decision to REPEATELY and WITH AFORETHOUGHT betray your family and your spouse, to throw them away, for kicks and sex... that shows the worst character.

It is extremely difficult to admit to one's self a deficiency of character. To admit one is a fool or unwise is very painful, because that is the essence of who we are at our core. The strength, beauty, intelligence... all those are attributes with which God has graced us. He has all given us freedom of choice, something of which He has let go and is entirely up to us.

Your wife used her one true power, that of choice, and used it in the most horrible way.

So until she works on her character and gains wisdom, then she will continue to be a lying, cheating, adulterer. And, you will continue to be sailing on a ship with a loose cannon.

So insist, should she indeed want to stay married to you, on her working on her character with a GOOD counselor. A few months here and there -- doesn't have to be continuous. But it is so necessary for her to obtain a good moral compass. She should not feel alone in needing to work on her character. Because we all need to work on character. We can all improve on that.

Also, you mentioned finding a new job by the end of July...

I recommend a consequence to her not finding a new job--separation.

Do you have children?

Find a rental place nearby and move out with the children. Get a legal separation -- others here can advise, but I would talk with an attorney about how to do that.

Move out and share the children until she is ready to be married to you. Right now she thinks she is doing what is right for herself and her family, but she is wrong. You need to move out until she quits or is no longer working there.

If she gets upset, then you can give her your wife's email address or picture as the one responsible. You are just enforcing a very reasonable and necessary boundary she refuses to acknowledge. She says she's sorry, but her actions don't reflect it.

So on the 31st, get ready to move half your stuff into an apartment with a separation.

If she asks you not to go, then hand her the keys to the apartment and tell her you appreciate putting some of the consequences on herself, where they belong.

Even if she quits the next morning, you should separate for at least 2 weeks. She pushed you until you had to enforce your boundary. There should be consequences for her lack of concern for you.

If she gives you a guilt trip--these consequences are only 2% of what should be befalling her.

She should be divorced and shamed as a lying, cheating, adulteress. She should be suffering the stares of disgust and disappointment from all who know her. Only you, the one abused and the recipient of her cruelty, are the one who is taking her punishment for her and holding back her just consequences. And what thanks do you get? Day after day of more abuse as she goes off to work with the OM.

If moving out doesn't suit you... then showing her filed divorce papers would also be a good route. You can withdraw the filing the next day. But she was an addict of another man's attention and she is sitting there with him just a minute walk away.

All this talk about being more present in the marriage, more attentive, taking better care of herself to not get in a "bad place". That would have worked great BEFORE they fucked. But they fucked and the rules are different now. She cheated and is now a lying, cheating, adulteress. She is so until the thought of her "putting you through the torment of knowing she is at work with him" brings shame and disgust to her.

Let's say you asked her to hold a $10 stack of quarters and punch you square in the face each morning before work. Not a little punch, but a nice round-house that would send you reeling.

She would most likely say, "No! I won't!" Why? Because she would feel horrible that you would have bruises, feel pain, and maybe lose a tooth. She would feel horrible doing so.

Then why is it ok to emotionally abuse you each and every day? Because she can't see the scarring? Because she can't see the pain and agony? Because you are enduring it in silence?

Remember that she knew it was wrong from the beginning and chose this ton of pain for you for each ounce of happiness for her. Forcing her to chose between you and her job is a gift she should be leaping for with all her might.

Instead she is insisting you take another hit in the face day after day after day.

Someone needs to work on their character here...

Get yourself ready to enforce some consequences. Do it for her and do it for you. You both need them desperately.

m1965

However, for whatever reason the affair began, your wife had no problem maintaining a relationship with another man for a year and a half. That capacity or ability raises questions about her general attitude to the truth, her understanding of what marriage is supposed to be, and why deceit and betrayal are amongst her coping mechanisms in relationships. Those are issues where counselling could really help, and why you, and several of us here, hoped counselling would be a part of her healing.

np5

The difference between those whom are broken and righteous and those whom are broken and adulterous, is character.

When temptation comes around, and it always will, the only thing that can save us is our character and strength of will. Those that have good moral character are resistant to temptation and evil. Those who have poor character are much more susceptible to being corrupted. I referred to it as a "moral compass" and some refer to it as a "conscience".

What your wife, and my wife, is doing is pushing her character deficiencies onto common difficulties in life. There will always be trials. There will always be hard times and stress, and conflict, and disappointment. What you need and I need to know is when they are pushed to the limit and want to escape the "bad place" how will they do so? Will they have the strength of character to do what is right when they find themselves in that bad place again?

She needs to work on her character. Right now she is a lying, cheating, adulterer. It isn't just when she has some strange dick inside her, nor when she comes home to kiss you afterwards. She is a lying, cheating, adulterer until she changes her character so as to never, ever, ever, be one again. She should gag with nausea at the thought of having an affair, not squeal with glee. That's the difference. She is regretful that she was caught and that there are consequences. That's a start.

Np5, m1965

This is the key point I can't get her to see or acknowledge. I guess obviously no one wants to think of lacking character. I have made this point a few times about how do you look at yourself in the mirror and be happy with what you see? She says she is not a 'horrible' person and this situation is not 'uncommon'.

That comment is frustrating but she is right in a sense. It may not be uncommon but it doesn't change the fact, common or not, that anyone who can do these things has a character issue and it needs to be acknowledged and worked on.

And you answered it here…

Np5

Because the decision to REPEATEDLY and WITH AFORETHOUGHT betray your family and your spouse, to throw them away, for kicks and sex... that shows the worst character.

It is extremely difficult to admit to one's self a deficiency of character. To admit one is a fool or unwise is very painful, because that is the essence of who we are at our core. The strength, beauty, intelligence... all those are attributes with which God has graced us. He has all given us freedom of choice, something of which He has let go and is entirely up to us.

Your wife used her one true power, that of choice, and used it in the most horrible way.

So until she works on her character and gains wisdom, then she will continue to be a lying, cheating, adulterer. And, you will continue to be sailing on a ship with a loose cannon.

NP5

I am a bit overwhelmed with this post and digesting it in chunks. I sincerely thank you, I will reflect further on it and review during daylight. You are saying some of the things that I am thinking but not acting on. Others have been saying it as well, but this one has had a bit of a roundhouse effect. This is really difficult for me but I am thankful I am here and not floundering on my own like I was for most of the time post d-day.