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20yrsin,

Firstly, and most importantly, I want to say how well you have got through this so far. We all know first-hand how horrible the period after discovery is, and you have gone through some very tough times with a positive attitude and true resilience. I had days where I didn’t even want to get out of bed, let alone face trying to solve the problems I was going through. You are doing that, and that alone takes a lot of energy and resolve, more than we realise, until we suddenly feel exhausted by it. You did a 10K run the other day, so you must be pretty healthy, but please do be good to yourself.

There is a lot of different advice coming your way, in different tones, and from different angles, but all of it has a single aim, which is to try and help you. I went through the ‘aftermath’ period by myself, in the pre-internet days, and I made a ton of mistakes that I would never have made if I could have posted in a forum like this and had feedback from lots of different people who had walked the same path as I was reluctantly treading. However, it is never easy or obvious for anyone who goes through it in their own life, and a lot of the collected wisdom in this forum was gained the hard way; learning by trial and error. It is a tough process for everyone to go through, no matter whether they are extrovert or introvert, rich or poor, city slicker or country bumpkin, hard as nails or vulnerable and sensitive. It is an emotional assault course that is tough on everyone, and everyone struggles with it. None of us were ready for it when our waywards dropped the bomb on us.

“I am starting to get it, the issue with passivity and half measures, it is definitely out of my comfort zone but I am going to stretch myself and be more clear on what the requirements are for recovery and reconciliation.”

I think the betrayed spouse’s bill of rights is a superb summary to use as a basis for what to ask for. I could go further and use the word ‘demand’ rather than ‘ask’, because ‘ask’ has connotations of a refusal being acceptable. ‘Demand’ does not. Many people are not comfortable with the concept of demanding things. It seems rude, strident, or arrogant. In many situations, it would be, but in the aftermath of infidelity, it really does need to be done, because a betrayed spouse can feel trampled on once because of the infidelity, and then trampled on again when what they ask for is denied, refused, or promised but never enacted.

“I want to believe my wife is trying her best and focus on the good things she is doing. However I know there are issues and rugsweeping and it needs to be dealt with.”

By all means be positive about the good things that she does. It encourages her to keep trying, and it will make you feel better that she is making the effort. However, as it should never be an ‘either or’ situation, where just because she does a few good things, you stop checking for red flags, or just because she does bad things, you do not recognise when she does any good stuff. I think I said in an earlier post that the approach has to be, “Hope for the best, prepare for the worst”. Notice and applaud the good things, but doggedly pursue and clobber the big issues that may not be being addressed.

“I tell myself I am ready to go my own way but I suppose to date my actions speak louder and I have not demonstrated this consistently. It is starting to come, in each of the 'confrontations' we have had so far. I have outlined consequences but the red flag everyone is calling out is still in play.”

Good for you, you are getting there. Changing to become more assertive is not easy, there are whole books on the subject and self-improvement classes, but becoming more assertive in a positive way is a good thing to do, in and of itself. In the aftermath of infidelity, as others here will attest, it is essential. In the process you are going through, you have decided to become more assertive, which is good, and your wife needs to stop focusing on her own wants and needs so much (career, affair) and pay more attention to the wants and needs of those around her (you and the kids), and take full responsibility for the impact that her negative actions have upon others (she is still in full-on denial/avoidance mode on that score).

“The workplace issue came up today. The third job application which was due today will not be submitted. It is a sr. management job and this particular position didn't seem like a good career move to her…there are two applications in the hopper which are lateral moves while this third is a promotion and not a good fit apparently.”

Now, that is a perfect illustration of what your wife needs to change. You are having a horrible time trying to cope with her being so close physically to the man who would have been happy to destroy your marriage for his own selfish ends, but your wife’s focus is not on the husband she has hurt so badly, but on her career. I know you could say, “But we live in the real world, and she has a career, she can’t choose any job at random just because it means getting away from the OM”, but here’s the thing: your wife, the dedicated and committed career woman, deliberately and in full awareness of the policy that companies and big corporations have about inappropriate relationships in the workplace, embarked on a year-and-a-half long emotional and sexual affair with a colleague she worked closely with, during work time, and on the company pay check. She knew that discovery would lead to instant dismissal for her and the OM, disgrace in the office, a permanent black mark on her resume, loss of professional reputation…And she didn’t give a damn about it. She was willing to take that risk with her precious, valued-above-all-else career. And yet now, in the aftermath of her year-and-a-half long career-threatening affair, her career is suddenly a big factor in preventing her from moving away from the OM, and more importantly, from giving the husband she hurt and betrayed some semblance of peace of mind that she is not spending every lunch-hour in a coffee-house or hotel with him.

Essentially, what her actions are proving – and what you should ask her about – is that her totally messed up priorities mean that she was willing to risk destroying her career in disgrace to be with the OM, like it had no value at all, but her career is more important than doing what her husband needs her to do and get herself physically away from the immoral low-life she conspired with to damage her own marriage.

Beyond that, this is not a ‘career’ matter. It is a ‘life’ matter. It is a ‘marriage and family’ matter. Can she not see that? She has almost destroyed her marriage and family because of her own selfish actions, and even in the aftermath, her attitude is not, “I’ll do whatever it takes to save my family because that is the biggest priority in my life”, but, “I’ll do whatever it takes to save my family as long as it does not have an adverse impact on the career I was willing to risk completely destroying by having an affair”.

So going by her actions, the ranking of her priorities would be:

1) Affair and the OM

2) Career

3) Family and husband

This is why so many people here have been getting so exercised about your situation. And that is what your wife has to work on. Why on Earth are her priorities so messed up? She made the affair more important than her career, but saving her marriage has to fit in with what’s good for that career? Is she for real?

“She said she is looking everyday for the right opportunity. She has already passed on another one that wasn't the right fit.”

Reinforces what I said above.

“I will note that most of the other opportunities, this one included, would still have her traveling to same area but would be in a different building.”

In which case they are not a ‘right fit’ either, are they? Given her poor boundaries and lack of commitment to protecting the marriage from her own selfish whims, you are not going to get a lot of security from her changing jobs and still working two blocks away from the OM.

“Obviously much better then current situation but not as significant as actually being in different city.”

20yrsin, how about replacing the word ‘significant’ in the above sentence with ‘absolutely essential’? Your wife should not be physically anywhere near that scumbag. She is a married mother of two children, with a career, and none of that stuff mattered to her when they were drawn into close proximity to work on a project together. She has proven beyond any shadow of doubt that she cannot be trusted to be anywhere near that turd, because she was willing to risk destroying her family and career for the privilege of screwing him. Apologies for the brutally blunt and coarse way I have put that, but it has to be spoken of in that way to get the message across.

“I suggested maybe she should talk to her boss or HR about a change. I am not sure she fully got what I meant with that comment but I do think she was finding this suggestion upsetting.”

Of course she was; she must be petrified of HR getting a whiff of what she did, and she is probably scared that HR is even on your radar!

“She said she will avoid OM like the plague. She will report to me weekly, daily whatever it takes.”

Sorry 20yrs, but her track record on avoiding that man is not good, and her track record on honesty vs. concealment is not good either. Thanks to that, her words have no credibility. Yes, by all means encourage her to do those things, but do not put any faith in them. You are dealing with someone who lied to her own husband, the father of her children, for a year and a half, and while you want to believe her, you must never forget what she has proven she is capable of.

“She said if the location change we both want doesn't pan out in the next couple months she will take a lateral that will get her out of the division and the building/ floor she is on.

I said that is too long and that we needed to talk further about this.”

You are right that it is too long, but there are some more issues here that need to be discussed, like:

1) Why is she not applying for jobs with other companies? If she limits herself to the company she and the OM currently work for, she limits the number of opportunities she has to move. Why is she doing that?

2) Why is she even applying for jobs that will put her just a couple of blocks away from the OM? Physical separation is the key thing here, and if they are still close, they can still meet up.

3) Why is she not prioritising saving the family she claims to love above her precious career? She put the affair above her career, doesn’t the family also deserve to be more important, or doesn’t it rank as highly in her mind as the OM did?

4) By staying in the same company as the OM, in the same city as the OM, what will she do if she moves office, and the OM moves to the same building as her two months later? Their paths crossed once, it makes sense that they will cross again in a big company like that. That is another reason why working for a different company would be better. She has already said that she cannot control what that turd does, so if they remain within the same company, with the same limited number of offices, and the same limited number of locations, he is free to move to any of the same places she may move to. Has she even considered that?

Sorry to labour those points repeatedly, but your wife clearly cannot see why they are so troubling for you.

“I will emphasize that I can't take much more of her being in the same office and therefore quick action will be needed. We both have weeks off during July so that will be a week out of the office for each of us. I think I will give her to the end of July.”

Okay, if that works for you, go for it. It is great that you have set a deadline, because otherwise this could drag on endlessly, with, “But for the good of my career…” being used to justify staying put, or staying close to the OM.

“I will book a mediator appointment for August 1st to draw up a separation agreement. If she hasn't got herself out of that office by then, somehow, that will be the consequence. She will have made her choice.”

Fair enough. The point with separation and divorce is that just because the processes are started, it does not mean they have to run to their conclusions. If the initiation of separation shakes your wife out of her comfort zone and she takes positive action that gives you peace of mind that she is ‘safe’ again as a life-partner, and well away from the OM mentally (very important!) as well as physically, you can re-think your position.

I apologise if anything here is upsetting. It is honestly written with the best intent for you, and to help get infidelity out of your life, which is something of a mantra in this forum.

Take care, 20yrs, and sending you strength and best wishes.

Great disclaimer -- I also do want to echo the sentiment that my advice wasn't intended to be harsh.

It's a harsh reality that is difficult to convey without coming across as harsh, but we are all one billion percent in your corner, 20yrsin.

I totally agree with np's input and this from M1965

I did write one of my trademark rants, but I realised that it would be much simpler to say that the ongoing problem seems to be that you and your wife have very different views of the affair. And it is impacting on every aspect of your attempts to fix things.

Your view is that it was a serious, sustained assault on you, the kids, the marriage, the family, and the future, launched by a team that consisted of your wife and the OM. Your wife sees it as a couple of bad decisions that ought to be forgotten about so they do not spoil a nice day out.

Absolutely, "different views of the affair" rings very loud with me, in your case and in mine. This is a fundamental mindset that needs to be changed in our WS's, if there is to be any future together.

She said she will avoid OM like the plague. She will report to me weekly, daily whatever it takes.

She said if the location change we both want doesn't pan out in the next couple months she will take a lateral that will get her out of the division and the building/ floor she is on.

I said that is too long and that we needed to talk further about this.

20yrsin, She says she is avoiding him like the plague...

OK, here is my experience. My children are going to an intermural school that does music and the OM moves into town to be a teacher there. WW promises to avoid OM at ALL COSTS and never even go close to him so as to not have a chance encounter. I get all the driving duty to and from camp. OM stays in room and never ventures out so I never run into him and is nearly a ghost there. Wife tells me she is so sorry and that she doesn't want to even think about him or ever come across him again.

BUT, my wife was emailing him and Facetiming him daily and fucking him every 2-3 weeks or so.

Wayward spouses will do or say ANYTHING. They will have you jump through hoops so that they can put up the façade of avoiding the OM while you run around busy and accommodating so that your WS can stay distant. Meanwhile they sneak off and fuck their lovers over and over and over and over.

Do not believe anything that they say. Don't believe half of what they do. You can verify and track and snoop.

What I have found to be most telling was the work they do in researching the pain, the agony, the sin, the horror and abuse that affairs deliver to the wayward spouse. Invite her to join you in the agony that she has and is raining down on you. Listen together to books on tape describing the devastation of affairs. Pause and discuss how you feel in deep detail. Ask her to write letters to you apologizing. Ask her to write a letter to you pretending to be a betrayed spouse. There even may be a time to invite her to post here. I did with my WW and it was certainly eye opening for her. She finally ended the affair after reading the threads here.

Because, I believe the human mind is well adapted to protect itself, through denial, from being critical of its' own decision making capability and evaluating its' own moral compass. It is exceedingly difficult to find oneself guilty through self reflection. But, for a WS, it is so crucial.

So much change has to happen for a WS, who only a few short months before, luxuriated in the ecstasy of forbidden love and sex, see what they had done as the most vile and heinous affront to not only you, but themselves as well. You have to show them that the sweet honey they were eating was actually a shit sandwich. That is no small task because they don't sell moral compasses at the grocery store, and you can't get someone to use what they refuse.

You will know it when they reflect on what they have done and instead of a smirky smile they want to throw up. But it can take a while, and some just cannot ever get there.

I was planning to raise this when M1965 addressed it:

She said she is looking everyday for the right opportunity. She has already passed on another one that wasn't the right fit.

This isn't about making a wise career move, it's about making you feel safe. Is her working with OM a "good fit" for you? She may just need to make a move that isn't perfect. Hell, if she's pretty unhappy with the move but not working with him, how can she not see that needs to happen anyway? You are miserable with them continuing to have contact but she's worried about a good fit? Consequences, my dear, consequences. She may need to face some at some point.

Every damn conversation, she says something like this. Remember, she should be bending over backwards to make you feel safer. What has she actually done to that end?

I'd say check her phone records or put a VAR in her car to see what they are saying on the phone to each other but they work together 8 hrs a day. They can say what they want each day without you ever really knowing.

20yrs,

There is an old saying that is very crude, but entirely appropriate for this situation:

"Don't shit where you eat".

In career terms, that is exactly what your wife has done. Yet now, having now rendered her dining area uninhabitable, she is finding a string of implausible and illogical reasons not to move very far from the aromatic scene of her crime.

She is saying she is going all out every day to get out of the OM's sphere of influence, but that is just not true. Why do I say that? Well, I'm guessing that she is a bright lady? That she has what are known as "transferable skills"? That she has a proven work track record? That she does well in interviews (as you said she always does), so must come across as a good candidate for employment?

Sounds to me like she could be applying to lots of different companies in lots of different places. People like her, ambitious professionals, move around all the time to broaden their experience and make their resumes look better. But strangely, your wife seems reluctant to do that.

Instead of sending a single application to another company, she has imposed some utterly unnecessary provisos on the jobs she will apply for. The most glaring ones, for which no justification has been offered, are:

1) They can only be with the same company that she and the OM work for, thus retaining the potential:

(a) to work on more projects with him

----- "It's not my fault, the managers did it"

----- "He put in an official request for me to work on the project, it was only two weeks, so I didn't want to mention it because I knew you'd be upset".

----- "I had no idea he was on the same team until I got there. How could I pull out then without it looking weird?"

(b) travel away to the same conferences and seminars for work

----- "I swear to God, I didn't know he was going. What could I do, it's my job?"

----- "I can't control what he does".

----- "Of course I didn't deliberately book my room at the same hotel as him, it was just a horrible coincidence. It was the only place that had rooms for those dates".

2) They are geographically close enough to the OM to make meeting at an arranged location easy. If any are an an impractical distance away, they can be rejected for reason 3, below.

3) They must be a good 'fit' for her career (which will always be her judgement call).

4) She cannot resign.

It must be a terrible situation for someone so completely sincere about wanting to be as far away from the OM as possible. She is so hopeless that no other company in any other location would ever employ her, and so with her incredibly limited (self-imposed) options, she has no choice but to stay there and stay there and stay there some more, and if the worst comes to the worst, in a few months' time, she will get herself moved upstairs, just a short walk from her current desk in case a "mutual friend" should wish to stop by to discuss vacation plans.

Which all begs a question so obvious that I missed it until now: where did all these bullsh*t rules that limit the jobs she can apply for come from?

Answer: your wife invented them. Did you suggest them?

It's actually quite clever (if obvious); she is using these 'rules' that effectively keep her in the same place to produce a tiny selection of jobs she can apply for, all of which have much potential for future contact with the OM, and yet she can still make a big song and dance about moving two blocks down the street from where she is now in the interest of saving the marriage.

I think the first thing she must start doing immediately is applying for jobs with other companies, and more importantly, in other locations. She has no good reasons not to do that, and - if she really means what she says about wanting the marriage and family - she has the biggest, most important reasons for doing it.

Seriously, the rules and limits she has imposed on the jobs she applies for are totally bogus, and you should call her on them. They bring into question how sincere she is to get away from the OM, and you should tell her that.

She has a fantastic opportunity to prove her commitment to you, the marriage, and the family, by leaving that company and putting a good distance between her and the OM, and she needs to explain why she is not doing it, and why, instead, she has invented a set of restrictive rules that keep her close to him. Questionable behaviour, isn't it?

Edited to add an afterthought: for the sake of being prepared for all eventualities, make several copies of all of your evidence of the affair (pen drives, disks, set up an email account and email it there, and store the copies in several places). Your wife is tech savvy, and she says she is a good researcher. It would be a shame if all of your evidence vanished mysteriously. That has happened to several people here.

[This message edited by M1965 at 4:43 PM, June 21st (Wednesday)]

M1965 is exactly right. She just shit in her mess kit and she is making you eat from it.

It's your life. You can eat from that mess kit as long as you like--perhaps, like me, you got used to it. I can put up with a HELL of a lot of abuse for a long time. Then one day I said, "I'm done." and I showed her the divorce papers I had prepared with my lawyer and I told her I was filing the next morning.

She saw then then the affair would be know to all of her family, her families' friends, our neighbors, our childrens' class mates and their friends, her patients (she is a dentist) and all 500 or so friends on Facebook. She stared into the abyss and decided then and there that she had pushed a patient man too far.

You seem very reasonable. A kind man. A forgiving man. Like me you are giving her a chance to own her decisions and fix things.

The problem I found was that she took every chance I gave her to reconcile, to forgive, to do the right thing and she said "thanks!" and fucked him some more. Every gift of forgiveness, purchased with blood, sweat, and tears, at a very high price... she threw it in the trash.

I'm not saying she is still cheating on you, but I'm saying it's very possible and it doesn't look good to me here.

(Damn, M1965, I swear you married my wife in a previous life...)

Anyway, steel your courage. Carefully make those boundaries. Get yourself mentally prepared to show her the divorce papers and file if you need to. I get that you will D only as an absolute last resort. I swore I would never D my wife. But that's why she was able to abuse me so badly, for so long. I hog tied myself so I couldn't defend my family.

Your wife had the opportunity to take her time to find a new job. But she fucked him. So now she needs to pull that eject lever. It may hurt exiting the plane. She has no one to blame but herself.

Hang in there and be strong and show her you will do what you need to move things along swiftly if need be.

This morning she apologized to me for not supporting and understanding that I need time to get to forgiveness. This was a sign of empathy.

She came to this while doing yoga and meditating and was reminded the only thing you have control over is yourself. She realized she was trying to control the situation and how I feel. She said she will focus on us, choose our love and when she feels lost or sad pray for guidance and support.

It was encouraging to hear and read this. I view it as an opening to have further conversation about what we can and can't control and having empathy.

NP5

Anyway, steel your courage. Carefully make those boundaries. Get yourself mentally prepared to show her the divorce papers and file if you need to. I get that you will D only as an absolute last resort. I swore I would never D my wife. But that's why she was able to abuse me so badly, for so long. I hog tied myself so I couldn't defend my family.

Your wife had the opportunity to take her time to find a new job. But she fucked him. So now she needs to pull that eject lever. It may hurt exiting the plane. She has no one to blame but herself.

Hang in there and be strong and show her you will do what you need to move things along swiftly if need be.

m1965

I think the first thing she must start doing immediately is applying for jobs with other companies, and more importantly, in other locations. She has no good reasons not to do that, and - if she really means what she says about wanting the marriage and family - she has the biggest, most important reasons for doing it.

Seriously, the rules and limits she has imposed on the jobs she applies for are totally bogus, and you should call her on them. They bring into question how sincere she is to get away from the OM, and you should tell her that.

She has a fantastic opportunity to prove her commitment to you, the marriage, and the family, by leaving that company and putting a good distance between her and the OM, and she needs to explain why she is not doing it, and why, instead, she has invented a set of restrictive rules that keep her close to him. Questionable behaviour, isn't it?

I am drafting up my thoughts about the job situation. I will explain why I view the OM as a cancer to our marriage and family. I will ask her to think about this context as she is doing her job search.

I will also explain I can no longer live with the current arrangement and never should have supported it in the first place. It should have been an immediate requirement to leave that job. To relocate far away from that POS.

Further points to make to her about this:

The ultimate act is for you to resign. It's a consequence of the choices made but clearly shows where the priorities are. I cannot support working in the same office or a new job that is in the same area past july. I am happy to help work on job searches and brainstorm on other options.

I cannot support a scenario where there is possible contact. Its a non starter and I will not put myself in a position to be harmed or where you are not making me feel safe. I hope you understand. I understand I do not control you and that you need to make a decision here for yourself. You know my requirements around this, I hope you support them.

This morning she apologized to me for not supporting and understanding that I need time to get to forgiveness. This was a sign of empathy.

So SHE has decided that you are going forgive her, you just need time to get there? And she is going to do everything she can to propel you in the direction of forgiving her, because that is what SHE wants, after realising that she cannot control other people, only herself?

...Okay...No contradictions there, then...

In this cleansing spiritual re-birth she is engineering, has she empathised at all with your feelings of having your heart torn out after her losing control of herself for a year and a half with the OM, or does her empathy not stretch that far? Has she empathised her way into understanding why you despise that man, and why she ought to? Or does the empathy only stretch as far as 'helping' (not controlling) you into forgiving her, which is entirely in her interest?

I apologise for being so negative, and I hope I am wrong, but this seems like pure manipulation.

"She said...when she feels lost or sad pray for guidance and support."

Wow. She's the lost, sad victim here. The poor, poor thing. She tore your heart out, betrayed the family, and she wants your sympathy, after doing so little to support you or hear you feelings?

Sorry, my head is spinning.

I like where your mind is and that you're executing, but you should not have to explain why he is a cancer. Clearly convey your boundaries and leave it at that. Giving color to a hard black line in the sand will only give her wiggle room and also possibly confusion.

She knows that he is a cancer. She just doesn't give a shit.

I the .0000001% she's confused about why he's a cancer that's a journey that she needs to take.

Man....you STILL are in infidelity and you can't even kind of start healing yet. You need to start healing before you can see if she has remorse and both of those things need to be in place before you decide if you want to reconcile

20yrsin

Just my 2 cents, but it appears she has decided she's "all in" and wants to rebuild her marriage. That being so, she is comfortable that she has no attraction to the other man and would successfully rebuff and advance he might make. That is the attitude you want from her, but the problem is that she's not thinking about you. She's not considering how much stress it causes you to trust her daily while at work while you are in the beginning of rebuilding trust.

This, I think, is just another part of her maintaining control and not being able to see your pain or empathize.

Do you know what "former" affair partners do when they still work together? They break NC. Ask me how I know.

I will also explain I can no longer live with the current arrangement and never should have supported it in the first place. It should have been an immediate requirement to leave that job. To relocate far away from that POS.

Hallelujah. Sorry but I honestly never thought I'd see you write those words. I only hope that you truly mean them. A truly remorseful wife would have actually said them to you first.

I understand I do not control you and that you need to make a decision here for yourself. You know my requirements around this, I hope you support them.

Please add: "Likewise you do not control me. And if you choose to remain in contact with him you can go be with him and I will make the appropriate arrangements with a lawyer to move myself out of this infidelity. "

20yrsin I really want you both to end up together. However you have a longer road ahead of you than you really know. I'm hoping these first steps are catalysts toward you both doing the hard work on how her actions have been affected both of you.

From what you have told us here it really appears that you have rug swept this hurt for over half a year. Maybe you are just not telling us everything. I hope so. You've never really talked before today about how her essentially living with and having sex with the OM made you feel. And even tonight you said it in still a very reserved way.

I hope you are considering IC for yourself (as well as her) to help you work through the hurt, which it really appears you have pushed way down.

I hope part of your process will be working thru this with a professional.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 6:02 AM, June 22nd (Thursday)]

Stevesn said:

20yrsin I really want you both to end up together. However you have a longer road ahead of you than you really know. I'm hoping these first steps are catalysts toward you both doing the hard work on how her actions have been affected both of you.

From what you have told us here it really appears that you have rug swept this hurt for over half a year. Maybe you are just not tell king us everything. I hope so. You've never really talked before today about how her essentially living with and having sex with the OM made you feel. And even tonight you said it in still a very reserved way.

Absolutely agree. Yes, it would be good if this can be worked through and the marriage is saved. Only, as others here have said, to be 'safe' from the OM, 20yrs's wife has to see him in the way that 20yrs does, which is as an enemy of the marriage and a threat to the future. She is nowhere near that at the moment.

Empathising is great, but as Stevesn says, there appears to have been no attempt on her part to ask 20yrs how what she did made him feel. Instead, she has actively avoided it. By avoiding it, she will not go through the very necessary stage of taking ownership of the pain she caused, which in turn will - hopefully - turn her into a safer life-partner, because she will know what any further infidelity would do to 20yrs.

And for 20yrs, Stevesn makes a good point about how little 20yrs has discussed his anguish with his wife. For both of them, that needs to be explored and discussed fully, so both of them can grow as people. That doesn't seem to have happened here. If 20yrs's wife is "all in to save the marriage", she should have no problem doing that.

What bothers me here is that 20yrsin is the person who has had his world turned upside down, with all the horrible emotional damage that does, and his wife is still focused on herself (as she is with her career, and as she was in her year and a half long affair). Apparently, she feels sad, she feels lost, she's going to pray, she will help 20yrs to forgive her. Has she asked him how he feels, and why he feels that way?

At what point is she going to slap her forehead and say, "Oh my God! I just realised how hurt and utterly betrayed my affair must have made you feel. I am so, so sorry! What do you need me to do? Leave my job? You got it. Go to counselling? You got it. You want to sit up all night telling me all about how you feel? You got it."

She is focusing entirely on herself, not 20yrs. Self-improvement is nice, but it should be a side project to the main ones of:

1) Stop looking in the mirror and smiling at yourself, and focus 100% of your attention on the husband you abused. He isn't fixed, he isn't happy, he doesn't feel secure. The empathy doesn't appear to have picked up on that yet. All she has detected so far is 20yrs's burning need to forgive her.

2) Give the husband you abused the peace of mind he desperately needs by doing what he asks, not what you want, or what is 'right' for the career you risked completely destroying by having a workplace affair.

This morning she apologized to me for not supporting and understanding that I need time to get to forgiveness.

You do not need 'time' to get forgiveness. You need solid actions from her that prove she has remorse for what she did because she sees infidelity for what it is, her part in it for what it is, and the OM for what he was. And the other thing you need is security. The big issue is for her to get into a mental 'place' where you are both on the same page about what the affair was. Only then can anything like true forgiveness begin, because unless someone is truly and honestly sorry for what they have done, you are not forgiving them, you are giving them a free pass. There is a huge difference.

Saying that 20yrs 'needs time' is like saying, "It's your problem, honey, but I'm understanding, I can wait for you to get better". Honestly, she is still missing the point by miles, because she is still not mentally taking responsibility for what she did. Her whole attitude to this, from the first post until this latest one, is about letting herself off the hook, and not doing any of the things 20yrs actually needs. That is why there keep having to be repeated conversations about the same subjects. She is talking, but only hearing what she wants to hear, and disregarding anything else.

Even the meditation is a conversation with herself in her own head, so it is no surprise that after this morning's session, she concluded that what 20yrs really wants is to forgive her. Nothing about her changing jobs, nothing about the OM, nothing about concealment. Her thoughts are about him forgiving her, not her doing anything for him.

Getting back to the issue of security and peace of mind:

I will also explain I can no longer live with the current arrangement and never should have supported it in the first place. It should have been an immediate requirement to leave that job. To relocate far away from that POS.

Further points to make to her about this:

The ultimate act is for you to resign. It's a consequence of the choices made but clearly shows where the priorities are. I cannot support working in the same office or a new job that is in the same area past july. I am happy to help work on job searches and brainstorm on other options.

I cannot support a scenario where there is possible contact. Its a non starter and I will not put myself in a position to be harmed or where you are not making me feel safe. I hope you understand. I understand I do not control you and that you need to make a decision here for yourself. You know my requirements around this, I hope you support them.

All good stuff, 20yrs. There is nothing unreasonable there, and you have to have security.

I would really like your wife to become a remorseful and safe life-partner for you, and for the marriage to recover from this whole sad episode. Hopefully your wife's responses to what you are asking for will be an indication that she is heading in that direction.

[This message edited by M1965 at 7:38 AM, June 22nd (Thursday)]

im glad you are getting how important it is that she get away from om. they need separation for your m to have any chance, for your sanity, and to stop them from restarting the a.

its a hard thing to "demand" it. we had a guy recently whos wife met a guy at a bar and he couldnt/wouldnt ask her to stop going. he was afraid. its sad because all of us here after aehile recognize that scene in the horror movie coming up - you know the one where the victim is about to get caught in the worst place possible by that monster and sometimes it feels like we are yelling at the screen to run ... and well, our warnings sometimes have about as much effect.

of course later we hear "you were right" or "i wish i had listened". which isnt at all what we wanted. we wanted to save them (you) all the effort of re-inventing the wheel and all the pain that we see coming and know is coming by allowing a ws and ap to remain in any contact.

it might not seem it but you are lucky. imagine if ap were a neighbor or some other situation not so easily rectified as "just" a job.

i think this new found strength of yours is going to pay huge dividends for you in the future. you are doing the right thing! stay strong, dont waffle it, and your healing will come quicker and easier than if she stays near ap.

20yrsin,

I am going to pick apart your post, if I may...

I am drafting up my thoughts about the job situation.

Like me, I am much more effective at the written then spoken word when it comes to confrontation, which you desperately need.

I will explain why I view the OM as a cancer to our marriage and family.

Don't "explain why I view". You make it seem like your are debating whether green or blue are better colors... THIS MAN IS WORSE THAN A CANCER because cancer isn't thinking, isn't evil, isn't immoral. HE IS TOXIC, POISONOUS, EVIL PERSONIFIED. It should be 100% clear that there is no debating this view if she is to stay married to you.

I will ask her to think about this context as she is doing her job search.

You don't ask, you demand. Asking was before the fucking. After the fucking you decide what is required and what is permitted (for a time of about 5 years).

I will also explain I can no longer live with the current arrangement and never should have supported it in the first place.

You don't explain. You state. I may be splitting hairs here... As a naval officer I was corrected many times that when you give an order you issue it like it was already decided and that there is no reason to question it or negotiate or take a poll (though they should state why they disagree if it was wrong or dangerous). Remember you have, by necessity, taken command now of the marriage. She was in charge of herself and she sold you both out and ran it aground. For the sake of the marriage, you need to decide what is right and what will happen. She has proven she is not in her right mind. Consider her a drug addict and she wants to hang out with her druggie friends. You just say, "No you will not hang out with them". If she does then it is a boundary violation and there is a penalty.

It should have been an immediate requirement to leave that job. To relocate far away from that POS.

Yes! You state that you failed to realize how hurtful and wrong this was, but now you know and now we will be doing something different.

Further points to make to her about this:

The ultimate act is for you to resign. It's a consequence of the choices made but clearly shows where the priorities are.

I think it would be better stated: Failure for you to relocate or transfer by July 30th will require your resignation.

I cannot support working in the same office or a new job that is in the same area past july.

"I cannot support" As if you were no longer going to be driving her to work... No you say "I will not accept you"

I am happy to help work on job searches and brainstorm on other options.

"happy to help" as if this entire experience was so fucking enjoyable... Try: "I insist on updates and being involved in the decision that impacts our family that you so carelessly disregarded."

I cannot support a scenario where there is possible contact. Its a non starter and I will not put myself in a position to be harmed or where you are not making me feel safe.

"Support a scenario" As if she needs your support. She doesn't give a damn, by her actions, that she cares if you support her or not. She didn't need your support when she was fucking him--she was quite capable on her own without your support.

Try: "If you purposefully contact him again I will file for divorce. Failure to inform me immediately of contact with him will result in me filing for divorce."

I hope you understand.

Replace with "You must understand this."

I understand I do not control you and that you need to make a decision here for yourself.

Replace with "You can chose to defy me and I cannot stop you. Just so you know that you will be doing so without me as your husband."

You know my requirements around this, I hope you support them.

Just don't. Delete this.

You need to change the way you think and the way you act.

If I'm being a little harsh it's because I was speaking and acting like you about 2 years ago and it dragged it all out, hurting me, my family, and even my wife. I should have taken the helm of our marriage much sooner. But we all make mistakes and have a learning curve.

Now there will be a time when equity is restored in the marriage. But YOU GET TO DECIDE THE RULES NOW BECAUSE SHE IS A RECOVING ADDICT. Remember, she didn't get your input whether she fucked him or not. Now you get to call the shots for a while.

Your making good progress here. Keep at it and keep pressing for what you both need to save your marriage.

[This message edited by notperfect5 at 10:05 AM, June 22nd (Thursday)]

20yrsin,

I will make one more post with you and then I must go dark again, because I can't survive long in the Just Found Out section...

I was such a nice guy. I loved being nice. I gave away stuff and helped people because it made me feel good and it's the right thing to do. I came from a loving home with great parents and a good brother and sister. No reason not to be nice. Sometimes people would tell me I was too nice and that nice guys finish last. I responded with, "No they don't!" and I was nice to a fault and became rich and successful being nice, forgiving people and working hard....

Worked great for 45 years. Then a POS started hitting on my wife and being nice was the ABSOLUTE worst position to be in. My wife became addicted to the way he made her feel. When someone is addicted, they lose all sight of what is right or wrong or good or bad. They just need another hit. Being nice was devastating when I was at war for my family. There is a time to be nice and this is not it.

I had an acquaintance at our Catholic school. Nice guy with a nice wife and daughter. Sometimes we carpooled. He, every morning, would be at the carpool line, opening the door to let the children out and see them inside the school safe. Would pray afterwards with the guys and then go off to work.

One day he shot and killed his wife and then himself.

He had become estranged with his wife -- marriage problems of some kind. Anyway, he snapped and left his daughter an orphan. She was shipped off to some distant relative, devastated.

People here used to ask me, "why are you putting yourself through this?" I responded that I was tough and that I could see it through and that I could make it all better if I just kept trying.

Sometimes you just don't know how much you can take until you snap.

When I learned my wife didn't just have a "too close" friendship, but had all this time lied and was fucking her OM, I was in shock.

Months and months later the shock wore off and then anger set in. Around here they call it year 2. I have never felt anger like that in all my life. Not one tenth of what I felt. At times I thought I would drive off the road I seethed with rage. Fortunately the OM seems to have got the hint from my nearly indecipherable texts that I was REALLY REALLY upset, beyond upset, and to move out of the area back where he came from.

There is a reason that half of the murder mysteries involve an affair in the story -- because it is BELIEVABLE. Affairs are one thing that can really cause a normal person to snap.

I was kind and nice and forgiving too long. In hindsight I pushed myself too hard and as a result I endangered myself, my wife, and my children, I believe.

This is the real deal. Don't mess around. This is hard ball and if you do not treat this stuff with respect people can snap. Nobody wants that.

I asked my wife (after the seven times she went back and broke NC and was discovered), how did you know I wouldn't snap? She said that she didn't know what she was doing... she was just crazy!

My IC told me that in an addiction situation the well being of the marriage and the family is dependent on the non-addict's ability to set and defend boundaries. So very true.

Protect yourself, your family, and your wife. Set and enforce good boundaries. Don't just keep taking it and forgiving and taking it. Because you need to think about yourself and your children and putting yourself through the ringer hurts everyone.

Good luck 20yrsin.

NP5, thanks for taking the time. I am reading your thread and anothers that are helpful. Great recommendations by stevesn.

I draft letters to collect my thoughts but generally I have been speaking face to face after I have refined the message into something I am comfortable with. It may start out to harsh, too soft whatever. I have to get to a point where I believe what I am saying and comfortable with it. This one feels like it should be written but I do find face to face is more effective.

I will sort through it. Maybe do both to ensure the message is received.

Thank you for participating in this thread. 'Mr nice guy' dies hard, I know lol.

For all those worried about being harsh, don't. I don't take things personally. I do feel a brotherhood (sisterhood) here and it helps. Hopefully one day I can pay this forward.

Some shit is hard to say. Watching people fall into the same old traps is probably really annoying. I can't say I won't do that but I am trying, I am reasoning out things I read here and a lot of it makes sense and I am becoming stronger in my belief about what are the right things to do.

NP5

HE IS TOXIC, POISONOUS, EVIL PERSONIFIED. It should be 100% clear that there is no debating this view if she is to stay married to you.

You don't ask, you demand. Asking was before the fucking. After the fucking you decide what is required and what is permitted (for a time of about 5 years).

You don't explain. You state.

Remember you have, by necessity, taken command now of the marriage.

I think it would be better stated: Failure for you to relocate or transfer by July 30th will require your resignation. "I insist on updates and being involved in the decision that impacts our family that you so carelessly disregarded."

Try: "If you purposefully contact him again I will file for divorce. Failure to inform me immediately of contact with him will result in me filing for divorce."

"You must understand this."

"You can chose to defy me and I cannot stop you. Just so you know that you will be doing so without me as your husband."

YOU GET TO DECIDE THE RULES NOW BECAUSE SHE IS A RECOVING ADDICT. Remember, she didn't get your input whether she fucked him or not. Now you get to call the shots for a while.

This is all great input into my 'letter'/ speaking notes. Thanks it will take me some time to wrap my head around it but these are very good points to consider.

NP5

I will make one more post with you and then I must go dark again, because I can't survive long in the Just Found Out section...

I was such a nice guy.

Sometimes people would tell me I was too nice and that nice guys finish last. I responded with, "No they don't!" and I was nice to a fault and became rich and successful being nice, forgiving people and working hard....

Worked great for 45 years. Then a POS started hitting on my wife and being nice was the ABSOLUTE worst position to be in.

Being nice was devastating when I was at war for my family. There is a time to be nice and this is not it.

Months and months later the shock wore off and then anger set in. Around here they call it year 2. I have never felt anger like that in all my life.

I was kind and nice and forgiving too long. In hindsight I pushed myself too hard and as a result I endangered myself, my wife, and my children, I believe.

This is the real deal. Don't mess around. This is hard ball and if you do not treat this stuff with respect people can snap. Nobody wants that.

My IC told me that in an addiction situation the well being of the marriage and the family is dependent on the non-addict's ability to set and defend boundaries. So very true.

Protect yourself, your family, and your wife. Set and enforce good boundaries. Don't just keep taking it and forgiving and taking it. Because you need to think about yourself and your children and putting yourself through the ringer hurts everyone.

Thank you NP5, appreciate all of your posts here and taking the time. I wish you well and I take your advice seriously and will keep in mind the hard lessons you learned.

Thanks for opening up to him NP5. I hope he reads it 10 times.