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But you're still qualifying love by the word real as if that explains it. Love of what?

But you're still qualifying love by the word real as if that explains it. Love of what?

Sorry, I am using 'love' as an example I guess so I'm not sure what you are asking??? I am just saying that the relationship in it's entirety (love or not) was very much 'real'. Real love. Real good sex. Real sharing. Real xxxxxx (insert whatever fits for the particular affair).

I understand the need for a BS to think that it was just a 'fantasy'

This is offensive. It's like saying, "I understand the need for WSs to believe it wasn't fantasy, because otherwise they have to admit to their own delusional thinking."

I don't "need" to think this. How can anyone consider this nonsense "reality"? Yes, it's a reality that the WS did have an affair. The actions are real. But with who? Because neither one of the partipants are being authentic with the other--or others in their life, for that matter. In most affairs, nobody in "reality" knows about the dirty little secret life going on. In most affairs, the participants lie to each other about very significant things: "I will leave my wife and family." "I will kill myself if you stop seeing me." They're not around each other enough to be "real"--they're in constant "company" mode. They convince themselves that what they're doing is ok. That nobody will find out. They convince themselves that nobody will get hurt. They believe they are in control of the situation. When the illusion is shattered, the "reality" is that the BS is devastated. The WS's children look at them with disgust. They're afraid to face both sets of parents. Their friends hate them. They may lose their jobs. THAT is "reality". And for what? Nothing. A total illusion. My husband has even said the whole thing was just stupid. "It wasn't real." I can't argue with that. It was playing make-believe.

At least in my case, the actions and consequences were real, but the thought processes behind the whole thing were totally delusional.

And what a waste.

"I understand the need for WSs to believe it wasn't fantasy, because otherwise they have to admit to their own delusional thinking."

See, but I think we DO say that. As a WS, I had to work through what lead me to basically, in my opinion, go crazy. I feel just as strongly about a WS not being allowed to call it a 'fantasy' as I do about a BS using the term to mitigate it.

Sorry for your pain.

Continuign t/j Ok, I get where you're coming from, and personally and profoundly disagree and see the 'real' as more of a spectrum of perception, but then I guess you would say I am in denial. But then I don't feel threatened by any of the states you say were real, and anyway have a much more benign feeling about fantasy.

But then I don't feel threatened by any of the states you say were real, and anyway have a much more benign feeling about fantasy.

I will say that this might be 'easier' for me to say given that I was not in love with my AP....who knows what I would be saying right now if I had been????

JMO, but the fantasy part came in when WH and OW said they didn't mean for it to happen. Oops. They thought they could end it without anyone getting hurt. I disagree that all relationships begin as fantasies because people don't live together, etc. That's not the same as the affair relationship, at all, IMO. I disagree that my beliefs mean I can't accept my WH's faults or what he did, either. The way I see it vs. others', doesn't mean I'm not dealing with or accepting the cold harsh facts of WH's actions, or minimizing it, or

deluding myself. I'm a pretty highly educated person, but the semantics here might be over my head. I understand why you're irritated with the overuse of the word, however. I can see how it tends to gloss over the 'ugliness' of the affair.

Crossed with run over (good reply).

(Wish I wasn't sleepy tapping on an I phone on 1 finger, limiting me to one word sentences.)

I realise thatit's still the word 'love' and its qualifier 'real' that's tripping me up; not quite as icky as 'true' love, but close. ( Which is not to say that one cannot love two people at once, but that's not at the heart of what is being debated here)

@Edie and UO...

I hate semantics. Seriously. Always seems like splitting hairs to me when the forest is not being seen.

I like to mix my metaphors.

I like the term "fantasy" because it does fall in well with the unicorn and rainbow thinking I had at the time. I fantasized about the AP. I fantasized about the future.

But I knew so little about him, and ignored reality.

I was in a fantasy vacuum.

It doesn't mean I didn't experience reality. Especially when the shit hit the fan.

But I will say, I used the term "fantasy" the other night to my BH to describe the A. It kind of sounded like a cop out. An easy answer.

Not sure why that is...it was just a feeling at the time.

I also disagree with the overuse of the fantasy propaganda.

In many cases there are obviously aspects of the A that are entirely fantasy. But I think delusion is a better word for it. Fantasy is typically heard as a positive and the aspects I consider fantasy are not.

Such as when comparing the AP to the spouse, when thinking one can escape for a while without effecting home life, alot of WSs views of the AP as they are often incomplete or severely skewed....etc.

But actions,feelings,words...those are all real and Cary very real consequences.

I think alot of time "fantasy" is used here just for ease of typing.

But OTOH, especially in the beginnings, calling it a fantasy is a way to cope and not let it all in at once.

I never had that mindset, it was all real to me and that's prolly why my emotions went AWOL for three months. Something's gotta give, ya know.

But yeah, there was definitely some delusional thoughts involved in slhims A. But not all of them.

Thanks, runoverbytruck, for putting it quite succinctly everything that I feel and believe.

the actions and consequences were real, but the thought processes behind the whole thing were totally delusional.

IDK, who really cares what the hell it is called it is infidelity. It is hurtful and I don't care if it is called a fantasy or malignant potential, it all hurts the same, it is all misguided thinking.

IDK, who really cares what the hell it is called it is infidelity. It is hurtful and I don't care if it is called a fantasy or malignant potential, it all hurts the same, it is all misguided thinking.

Yep, call it what you want. It happened. It hurts.

I think the term fantasy is as confusing, (annoying ?) as the term fog.

They are the same thing of course.

I don't agree that an affair is the same as a new dating relationship.

Two people dating are putting their best face forward yes, as AP,s do in an afair.In an A tho that best face is an ugly mask.

No one in a dating relationship however has to justify that relationship by tearing down anoher person or by re-writing history nor do they need to delude themselveS OR deceive another.

Maybe because my AP and I actually discussed how much we were hurting our BS's,

And to me this is sometimes ( in my WH's case) bending reality not to soothe feelings of guilt but more to not look like the shits they were to the other.

Attempting to deceive themselves. A dating couple doesn't have to do this.

And with endless amounts of this kind of self delusion and distortion..how is that not fantasy.?

But a fantasy? I don't agree. I say tackle it head on, be upset, admit it was a reality and decide what you are going to do about it, how you are going to work through it and move forward in reconciliation or not. Saying it was a fantasy is just an attempt, again in my opinion, to 'justify' that your WS didn't really mean what he/she was doing or saying.

And i think that there's where it can get muddled up. It was absolutely real, The feeling were absolutely real no matter how out of touch with ugliness of their reality the two AP's are. My WH meant every word he said in his A.

A lot of those words were intended to generate certain feelings. And vice-versa.

So were they real??

The kind of crap we hear on SI that AP's say to each other, does anyone say those things to someone they are dating?

I dunno, i think as long as he believed he felt that way, well, he did. That's my reality.

My own thinking is muddy today but i often think that the A feelings were all very real. The people involved were not.

FWIW, delusion is pathological and falls into the purview of medical conditions.

I continue to disagree that in most situations a WS will really know and therefore love an AP. Unless the WS has somehow achieved a paradoxical intellectual honesty with the AP that was not achieved with the BS I cannot see how it is possible.

In my situation at least, g_r was not presenting reality 100% honestly. The OM was definitively not presenting reality 100% honestly. They effectively built caricatures of themselves that they wanted the other to see, and saw the other in that caricatured status. Perhaps the love of that caricature was real, but it was at the same time as fictional as emotions felt for any fictional character.

There certainly may be some situations where the non-fantasy applies and the WS and AP found a font of trust and truth that was found nowhere else, bared souls and connected with an unabridged honesty that merits the moniker of Love, but I personally have yet to encounter that situation outside of fairy tales like Tristam and Isolde, and even they have to give credit to a magical potion.

I admit I am ruffled somewhat by the cavalier attitude with which certain talking points have been approached.

Dated in college and fell in love? How is that 'real life' then? No stress, partying a lot (for many), no real bills, etc. Complete fantasy life - so those people were not 'in love'?

High school? Same thing?

Oh, you fell in love in your 20s? When you lived with your parents? The list goes on and on.

I do not fit into this at all. I met my wife when we were 16 and had one girlfriend before her that I dated more than two weeks, and who was also the only other girl I ever so much as kissed. The life built from that was not stress free in any sense of the word, involving as it did all the trials and tribulations of teenagers with 2000 miles distance between them; living with parents meant paying bills and having no space in the refrigerator. What you narrowly define slices out a large wedge of actual reality for many people; superficial relationships those may be that some have in their younger years, but that in no way shape or form precludes the possibility of a relationship that is not so shallow as that within the same age demographic.

But a fantasy? I don't agree. I say tackle it head on, be upset, admit it was a reality and decide what you are going to do about it, how you are going to work through it and move forward in reconciliation or not. Saying it was a fantasy is just an attempt, again in my opinion, to 'justify' that your WS didn't really mean what he/she was doing or saying.

This is me very calmly stating I never have, nor ever will, justify anything my wife did. That we view things differently in the regard of perception does not give you the right or privilege to tell me or anyone else how I experience or deal with these issues, especially where it concerns the reality I have so carefully sifted through.

That we view things differently in the regard of perception does not give you the right or privilege to tell me or anyone else how I experience or deal with these issues, especially where it concerns the reality I have so carefully sifted through.

I was in no way directing my comment at you or any specific BS. I was stating an opinion of how I feel based on my situation and what I read on here sometimes. It is my opinion and what my BH and I discussed to deal with my specific situation. While I think it can apply for others, it obviously doesn't for your situation.

Not everyone will read every suggestion or post on here and find value in it. As they say 'take what applies to you and will help you and leave the rest.'

I see that you stated it as opinion. I was too pissed off by the wording to process that and apologize.

UO~ thank you for your compelling post. My reality is that WH is much more concerned with his own feelings and self-protection vs. mine. I struggle to accept this after almost 40 years together, but it is what it is.

Fantasy? Maybe. My WH admits it was "intoxicating" to have sex with multiple, random women. So, how do I compete with that???? I don't. Accepting reality? Yep. I'm just about there -- game over...

I'd say infatuation in most cases. Real relationships start out as infatuation too. But at some point reality hits and it ends or goes forward to mature love.

My husband saw what he wanted to see in the OW and did his best to rationalize/ignore/and mitigate anything that didn't fit what he wanted to believe about her. I assume she did that same. That's infatuation. I don't call infatuation love...I reserve that for real.

That said, potential is a horrid little hook. I think it's why my H had such a hard time walking away.

[This message edited by caland at 8:23 PM, November 21st (Monday)]

I'd say infatuation in most cases. Real relationships start out as infatuation too. But at some point reality hits and it ends or goes forward to mature love.

I like this. This is what I meant when I said what I did about many many starts of relationships. They did in some cases turn into a deep long lasting love, but infatuation in the beginning is a great way to describe it, not fantasy (to me anyway). How many of us had this happen a few or more times before we found our spouse who we formed a life with?

Incidentally, I have often wondered when it is mentioned in books that the probability of two people having an affair ending up in a long term relationship being 3-7% if that isn't the average for any relationship. Since I agree that most start out with the infatuation stage. The difference being that the two people involved completely ruined many other lives so they could see if their infatuation or love would last and also gave up a proven love of their spouse (in most cases). Not to mention one or both are cheaters who probably didn't work on their issues at all....just thought the new partner was the answer to their 'problems.'

[This message edited by helpemegetoverit at 9:08 PM, November 21st (Monday)]

I guess my half a cent's worth is going to be infinitely simplistic against all the many descriptions and definitions of "reality"....which actually inspires my personal opinion.

Just as there are thousands and thousands of members on this site, there is a myriad of perceptions/concepts of "reality," all generic to each person's experience, perception and tradition.

Infidelity does put a spotlight on the question of what is real for obvious reasons. But no matter how layered the topic can be stretched, it still comes down to people will have different definitions.

Mine is quite simple....

"Our intention creates our reality." - Wayne Dyer

[This message edited by numb and scared at 9:12 PM, November 21st (Monday)]