SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Do you believe your husband truly loved you? I think you do. If so, the odds are good that in his heart, he hopes that you show him that you are redeemable, that you are remorseful, that you can change and want nothing more than to do so, for him, your family and yourself.

However, it does not seem you want to. That is okay but do not pretend to lament the loss. You have not lost your family yet but you will if you continue to wallow. You have 2 small kids, you do not have the luxury of playing the victim while letting the real victim, your husband, clean up your mess. If you continue to allow this, the long term fallout will be far worse than the situation you are currently in.

^^^^^^ THAT

Perhaps I do owe that OM something, as heretical as that viewpoint clearly is. I didn't leave him, or any other of my affair partners, in particularly good condition. My last had an alcoholic breakdown after I left him, following on ten years' sobriety. I think he lost his job, and if so, his career with it. Do I really owe him? Perhaps not, but I'm not blameless in what happened to him, even though he knew that I was married. I knew from the start that I would leave him before long, and that he would probably suffer badly, but he didn't know that, and I didn't want him to know it.

Enough of that. "Not being able to fix;" what does that mean? In terms of me, it means that there are no past abuse issues, no FOO issues, no marriage problems, nothing I can look for as to the Grand Why. I know that there is no excusing unfaithfulness, but the advice I have always received is: seek the Why. Implicit in that is: Find it and you may be able to receive sympathy from your wronged spouse. And in my case, it is unlikely that there is any such why. I am not a person who has an insatiable need for affirmation due to childhood neglect. I was sexually precocious and promiscuous because I simply was, not because I had been molested or otherwise sexually wronged. That is what I mean about not being fixable, because there is very likely no cause to fix. But that does not mean that I can't see where my behavior has led me, it does not mean that I don't want to change it, it does not mean that I see no need to make amends, and most importantly, it does not mean that I am incapable of love. I know how much my husband hurts, even though he will not show it. I know what hurts him the most -- his disbelief in the past, and that pain in turn hurts me.

Is there self-pity? Yes, but it is lessening. There doesn't seem to be a handbook for people like me, I have to claw my own together and hope that it makes sense. There are ups and downs. Today is an up. Tomorrow might be a down. There is shock. I think that much of it comes simply from having been caught utterly, having no lies left to tell after all the years. I clearly see that when all the lies are stripped away, there is no self that I can recognize, at least not yet.

Do you believe your husband truly loved you? I think you do. If so, the odds are good that in his heart, he hopes that you show him that you are redeemable, that you are remorseful, that you can change and want nothing more than to do so, for him, your family and yourself.

He did truly love me, but as for the rest, he would very probably say that you had lost your mind. Redemption and remorse are no more than words to him. There have been other great hurts in his life, and he has always walled them away with the force of his will. The hurt that must come with discovering that his wife is what I am must be monstrous, but he has somehow managed to conquer even this. He continues to live and provide. He asks for nothing.

It frightens me because being able to touch him again would mean that he would need to let the hurt free, let it burn and scar him. It is not something that I can make happen, I cannot repair him; he would have to do it, decide to shoulder this for me. And that is what sends me into despair. What could I ever be worth such that he would face that willingly?

However, it does not seem you want to. That is okay but do not pretend to lament the loss. You have not lost your family yet but you will if you continue to wallow.

The idea of changing myself for its own sake remains only an abstract idea to me. I freely admit that it is still, in my head, a means to an end. I don't think that this particular awareness can be forced.

And I have already lost my family. But hopefully not forever.

For as well spoken as you are, you're clearly confused. Figuring out your "why" doesn't have even the slightest thing to do with getting sympathy from your betrayed spouse. Once you wrap your head around that, you'll be better off.

As for you ruining your past AP's, trust me, they were screwed up already. I will tell you from personal experience, every single time my WH has ever so much as uttered a word about how his AP wasn't to blame, was a good person, also got hurt, fell for his evil ways etc., etc., etc. it made ME, the only one whose feelings actually matter, want to puke.

Figure out if you want to wallow, or if you want to fix what's broken. Trust me, there's something there that needs fixing & that thing is you.

Figuring out your "why" doesn't have even the slightest thing to do with getting sympathy from your betrayed spouse.

Obviously it doesn't, and I do understand that well enough. But it seems to be the signal which I am constantly getting, along with the idea that there must be a "why" that is external to me.

After two counseling sessions, it looks as if I may have to find a new counselor, simply because the current one is so intractably convinced that there must be sexual abuse in my past. There is none. I had my affairs because I enjoyed them, and I enjoyed them so much that I blotted out the ugliness of what I was doing to my family. I often made resolutions to stop, but I now think these had more to do with the fear that I would finally get caught than with anyone else.

As for you ruining your past AP's, trust me, they were screwed up already.

But no more screwed up than I am, possibly less than I am. Some of them may very well have already redefined their lives for the better. If you say that I can fix myself, and that your husband can fix himself, then it follows that your husband's affair partner can fix herself, as painful as that might be to say in the place where you are. I don't need to light candles for my APs, but my demonizing or belittling them won't help anything, I'm no better than them. And just because they were screwed up does not give me a pass when it comes to having lied to them. It may seem ludicrous coming from me, but I have at least come to grasp that no one deserves to be lied to.

Trust me, there's something there that needs fixing & that thing is you.

Yes. I am damaged. But no one damaged me, there's nothing to blame but me. That seems to make the fixing all the harder.

You are a dangerous woman for anyone to be in a relationship with.

You are very intelligent..almost to the point of being wiley. Men in your life don't stand a chance because you simply see them as toys to play with.

While there is a side to you that says.."Hey this is wrong."

You simply don't care. The pain you feel now is not because you hurt your BH or family. It's because you got caught and now are facing the consequences of losing whatever they were providing for you.

There is no remorse that I read or even pick up on.

I'm pretty sure you can give me a very well written response on how I may be right or may be wrong, whether you do or not...my opinion is that you are not one to be in a serious relationship unless you change your inner soul.

Which appears to be cold, narcissistic and only seeks self preservation.

No matter how many therapist you go to..unless that changes, both of you are wasting your time in therapy.

I'm pretty sure with how intelligent you are..you can twist and turn a therapist to jello.

Dangerous..very dangerous.

I read your posts and they read like some one with a huge ego. You portray yourself as some kind of all powerful being over men. They just fall at your feet cuz you are ALL THAT. These poor guys didn't have a chance. You dumping them just destroyed their lives cuz you are ALL THAT.

Any one can manipulate people if they chose to. It's not a special skill.

Could your ego take it if you thought these guys were playing you -- using you?

Stop focusing on these poor sad saps you took advantage of and start looking at why you did it in the first place. No -- not for your spouse. For you.

In terms of me, it means that there are no past abuse issues, no FOO issues, no marriage problems, nothing I can look for as to the Grand Why.

I'd bet against that. You said you seduced an older guy at a young age and it liked it. That's a start of a pattern -- you recognize that. A kid doesn't wake up one day and say 'hey, I think I'm gonna get this old guy off'. It comes from somewhere before that.

I am not a person who has an insatiable need for affirmation due to childhood neglect. I was sexually precocious and promiscuous because I simply was, not because I had been molested or otherwise sexually wronged.

Ok -- why do you an insatiable need for affirmation? Lots of people in the world don't have that need.

There doesn't seem to be a handbook for people like me, I have to claw my own together and hope that it makes sense.

There's that 'I'm special', 'I'm different' ego attitude again. Who taught you that? Where did that come from?

It comes shining through your posts that seducing guys brought you (a false) self-worth. The inflated ego masks real insecurity and low self-esteem.

You think you were just born with this over-compensating ego? This low self-worth and low esteem just materialized at out thin air? It that were true -- then you really would be special and different.

The hurt that must come with discovering that his wife is what I am must be monstrous, but he has somehow managed to conquer even this. He continues to live and provide.

Your BH isn't a superhuman. He continues to live and provide because he's responsible. He understands that he's 100% responsible for the two innocent children that he helped bring into this world- not 50% but 100%! He asks for nothing because he recognizes that he's 100% responsible for his children!

What could I ever be worth such that he would face that willingly?

Responsible! Just be fucking responsible!

The idea of changing myself for its own sake remains only an abstract idea to me.

It's an abstract concept for a lot of people. It is for me and it probably is for your BH as well, although it becomes less abstract as life experience is accumulated. Most of my personal boundaries have little to do with "me" and everything to do with the responsibilities that I've assumed in my adult life. Like having children! Oh boy do I miss the days when I ran riot and sometimes I wonder what the hell I was thinking when I decided to have kids. Sometimes I resent my boundaries- they're my bed that I made.

I have already lost my family. But hopefully not forever.

The difference between you and your BH is that he understands that he doesn't have the right to bring children into this world and then lose them. That's why he's taking care of them right now and you aren't.

Hopefully not forever? You say that as if it's out of your control.

I think you're brushing off the 'sexual abuse, FOO issues' because you may not have tapped into it fully. We all have emotional wounds from childhood, even those who had happy, bright upbringings. It doesn't have to be sexual abuse: it can be emotionally distant parents, alcoholic parents, overbearing parents, even happy well-adjusted parents can leave you with childhood wounds you have to understand and learn from. This is drawing somewhat from the 'Imago' concept, that we ALL have childhood wounds -- no one escapes unscathed, it's just a matter of how you learn to cope, or fail to learn to cope. For many cheaters, it's the latter that gets us into trouble, no matter how slight or severe our history.

(digression: As a parent, this is a hard reality to face: that we will be inflicting unconscious wounds on my children no matter how 'good' of a parent my wife and I try to be. I daresay having been a cheater, I'm not even that 'good' to begin with. The best we can do is try to raise them as emotionally adjusted children who have good coping skills to handle the areas where we fail.)

You may have convinced yourself that your childhood isn't impacting you, but your apparent lack of self esteem really screams that you have an underlying issue you haven't tapped into and you need to address that. Certain ways of thinking don't materialize out of thin air, and none of us are unique snowflakes.

I'm sure it's already been mentioned, but so many of us have started into this process feeling that we knew exactly why we cheated and that we didn't have any FOO issues, we were normal people that just made bad decisions because we wanted what we wanted. Major introspection shows us why we made these decisions, and it's not for the superficial reasons you seem to believe. You owe it to yourself and your family to get to the bottom of why you think the way you do.

On the flip side, no FOO issues ever excuse these behaviors, and that's also important to recognize. Admitting or finding these issues doesn't give you a pass. Until you can address this, though, you are still in danger of dropping into repeating the same patterns of betrayal.

Out of curiousity, if you realized the affairs were wrong but you did it because you enjoyed it, what did you tell yourself to make it 'okay' to start them in the first place?

Why is your self esteem so low? On one hand you seem to derive a sick pleasure in the pain and destruction you have wrought. Perhaps knowing you caused all this pain to all these men makes you feel important for a minute.

But, like any drug the effects of that wear off and you are off looking for the next fix. What you do not seem to get is that the pain you are causing your husband and children will have life long effects.

Unless you act now, your kids will carry your damage forever. Forever. Of course remorse is just a word to your husband, he has nor yet seen it in action from you. Read love must be tough by Dobson. Your husband likely left you because he loves you too much to enable your behavior and your clear lack of action.

Love is a verb. Show that you are not a monster. Show your family your love and remorse if you have it.

The pain you feel now is not because you hurt your BH or family. It's because you got caught and now are facing the consequences of losing whatever they were providing for you.

It is both. I am not pure, but I can still feel.

my opinion is that you are not one to be in a serious relationship unless you change your inner soul.

I agree with that. I'm looking for the way.

I read your posts and they read like some one with a huge ego. You portray yourself as some kind of all powerful being over men. They just fall at your feet cuz you are ALL THAT. These poor guys didn't have a chance. You dumping them just destroyed their lives cuz you are ALL THAT.

Any one can manipulate people if they chose to. It's not a special skill.

I'm sorry that you read that into it. What I wanted to say is that I hurt many people, and it is on my conscience. My family and my husband mean the most to me by far, but that does not make everything else I've done wrong of no consequence.

Could your ego take it if you thought these guys were playing you -- using you?

I knew that they were using me. We were using each other. It makes no sense to draw the balance of who was being used only by who lost the most in the end. That may sound flippant, but I know that it takes two wrongs to make an affair.

I'd bet against that. You said you seduced an older guy at a young age and it liked it. That's a start of a pattern -- you recognize that. A kid doesn't wake up one day and say 'hey, I think I'm gonna get this old guy off'. It comes from somewhere before that.

I won't argue with you, there may be an external cause that I have not found yet. But I also will not make a crusade out of finding that cause. It may not be there. If it isn't there, I am still faced with the necessity to change.

Ok -- why do you an insatiable need for affirmation? Lots of people in the world don't have that need.

I'm sorry, I expressed myself badly. I meant that I don't fit the model of someone who needs affirmation due to neglect, which is another drawer which my counselor seems to want to put me into. Even if I were needy for affirmation, I received it in abundance from my husband.

It comes shining through your posts that seducing guys brought you (a false) self-worth.

I've already admitted it. I am not proud of it, it doesn't make me feel good.

Hopefully not forever? You say that as if it's out of your control.

I meant as far as my husband is concerned. Our children will be staying with me for Easter week, and I am planning to return to them before the summertime. It will be hard starting out, I will not be asking my husband for support. But I will be there for them.

Out of curiousity, if you realized the affairs were wrong but you did it because you enjoyed it, what did you tell yourself to make it 'okay' to start them in the first place?

That as long as he was the only one I loved, and I made him happy, that nothing else mattered. I was blind to how you must be able to believe in the past in order for it to have substance, to be able to return to that happiness in memory. That is the awfulness that I can feel with him and for him, that I have destroyed the past for him, taken a piece of his life away.

On one hand you seem to derive a sick pleasure in the pain and destruction you have wrought. Perhaps knowing you caused all this pain to all these men makes you feel important for a minute.

You're misreading me. I wanted to be important to them, I was indifferent to what happened to them afterwards. The indifference was also wrong but I had no wish to cause anyone pain.

Your husband likely left you because he loves you too much to enable your behavior and your clear lack of action.

The last time I saw my husband, he had packed my suitcase and he ordered me out of the house, told me that my AP was waiting for me and that with my AP was where I belonged. Whatever love my husband had for me, he has crushed or deeply suppressed. It will have to be rebuilt. I really do want to try.

I'm sure you'll pick apart this response as you've been doing, but I'll give this one more shot. You sound completely devoid of empathy. You understand that you hurt & even that your actions have hurt others, but you do not at all grasp the full emotion of what your husband, again, the only man in this scenario who should matter, is going through. Yes, he threw you out. Yes, he has cut himself off from you. Yes, he has even gone so far as to file for divorce. I'm curious why you are making the great assumption that he also has stopped loving you? The first 3 things I listed do not automatically go hand-in-hand with not loving someone. After all, didn't you personally do unspeakably horrid things to him WHILE you loved him? Were you able to flip your love on & off like a light switch? I would bet everything I have that he does indeed still love you, but chose an immediate & possibly permanent way to protect himself from you, which, under the circumstances, is entirely understandable, yes?

Threw it away, I'm sorry you're hurting and that you're husband has filed for D. It sounds like you are really processing what has lead you to these A.

I'm curious why you are making the great assumption that he also has stopped loving you?

It's not an assumption. He told me so.

He told me so. He would not have said it unless he meant it.

Reading these posts scare the hell out of me. I'm sorry your losing your family.

I haven't lost our children. What I have lost is my husband's love, which is somehow worse to me than the loss of our family life, as awful as that may sound.

I can only give you this advice out of this experience: if you have not yet disclosed everything, do it now, as soon as you can. What you cannot force yourself to say, write and give to him to read. Do not hold anything back. Any lie you tell, any shameful thing you conceal, could be the last. It really could be.

Looking for an "external" cause of your behaviors is an exercise in futility at this point. Although it is stressed frequently that we need to get to the root cause it doesn't have to start there. You have the power right now to decide what kind of person you want to be. When looking at your current and past behaviors you can actually decide right now if those are behaviors you want to keep doing and toss the ones you don't want to repeat.

Start being the person you want to be. What does that person look like? How would that person act? Look at some of your past choices and decide what would have been a better choice. It actually is possible to change what does not work in your life without digging around in your childhood. Maybe look into therapy that deals with addressing behavioral issues...DBT comes to mind.

What you see as "external" causes or perhaps excuses that should be dismissed, not reflected upon or simply not there I see as having internal consequences and a starting point of assessment on the path that will hopefully lead to growth and authenticity. As ArialRose says your start point may be different.

Who says every one needs a traumatic childhood to end up damaged?

Some times children who are not taught proper boundaries, who are over-indulged -- bought off with gifts, those without discipline, rules, structure, those with parents swooped in and cleaned up their childs messes and saved the day, with parents who rug-swept any unpleasantness cuz it simply was not talked about -- can cause as much damage to their children too.

Mr.DixieD's childhood was a cake-walk compared to mine -- but he was not taught skills he needed to become a healthy functioning adult.

I can understand you don't really want to go down the 'what's broken in my past to have done this' path, AR pointed out a way to still WORK not wallow. Start behaviours that show empathy, sorrow, remorse and a willingness to change. Could you write a daily journal without focusing on how pained you are, but rather empathising with your husband AND children for what you've done to them. (segue:OMs be damned, the longer you carry on thinking about how you treated hem badly, you ignore what you yourself admitted, that they willingly took part in something so fundamentally wrong, is it any wonder cheaters lie, use and discard?)

Would it be hard to be genuine and admit to those close to you in your life that you've hurt them through your behaviours, that you are changing and whether they can help you identify what you can do? Are you willing to do things to try and win your husband back? Actively? Every day of your life, no matter how much he rejects you initially? Are you going to now stop the self pity and start focusing on what you took away from your family and try to start giving back to them (which includes not wallowing about yourself or the outcome for your OMs). Giving back to them would mean being involved, approachable, authentic. I'd suggest reading up on PoRH and on fulfilling ENs?

Please remember words and even feelings alone are hollow unless followed up with consistent, sincere and concerted ACTIONS.

I'm sorry, this blizzard of abbreviations is a bit much for me. What is a PoRH and what are ENs?

I do what I can, what occurs to me and what I can grasp.

I was given legal advice that although infidelity can influence the division of assets in the state where we live, I would still be entitled to spousal support. As I said in an earlier post, I will not be taking it from him. It will be hard because I have never worked and will now have to learn. But I am ready for it.

I was also told that since I was the primary carer for our children, I would probably get preference regarding custody. I have offered full custody to my husband freely. I know that if he takes it, he will not be vindictive towards me -- he still fosters their contact to me even if he no longer wishes contact with me himself.

Winning my husband back. So far away. There are days when I think that there is a path to follow, I will get there, I am determined enough and he will see it. And there are days like today where I castigate myself and feel that I am indulging in a pipe dream, it's gone, it's time to accept. But I am becoming less passive, a bit more every day... hope it will count for something. I look forward to seeing our children again soon, even if it makes me miss him all the more.