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I have no words of advice. I just think you need a (((((((kchip)))))))

I've read your responses and appreciate everyone's intentions.

I am not going to accept any less than a remorseful WW who is ready to accept her actions. I can't live with any less. No, I do not have anger issues nor have I ever harmed my WW.

My point to posting was the fact that her BFF was willing to tlak to me and convey that WW cries all the time and has told her and others that she doesn't want it to be over. Of course, in 7 weeks she has never shown that to me. I did here about several accounts about her breaking down and feeling guilt and remorse for her A. I also heard how WW was convinced that I had been in a A with an employee this last year. Of course this never happened! God what a mess.

WW didn't ask this person to reach out to me. I initiated the conversation because I now this one friend to be a friend of the marriage and not one of her other snakes/bffs. So i did find her comments credible. She really wants to see us work this all out, and she even offered to talk to my WW and see if she could help bridge the void for us. She texts and talks to my WW several times a week. I found her gesture and openess to discussion very positive.

19 years is nothing you can just 'walk away from'. But I did tell BFF I will indeed walk if I don't feel safe and that i can trust her.(verify)

If her BFF can help (she listened to me for 2 hours) and convey back my point of view - Women to women - it can't hurt.

I do love my wife still. But at the same time, a D will cost me $50K and 1/2 of everything (FL).

This has been one hell of a rollercoaster alright.

R is hard enough, even harder when it is one sided. Seems she wants it her way. If she is demanding this now who knows what she will want in the future.

It is you my friend who has to make the choice. If it were me, I would walk away at least for a while. It has not been very long yet for you and believe me, there will be many hard days ahead.

Brandon,

Thanks btw. Thats is pretty much what I told her 3 nights ago. It was actually one of the best conversations me and WW have had in 7 weeks. I could her crying on the phone and I could hear it in her voice.

I think some of the hesitance on her part is FOO issues - bigtime. I'll explain. When we first began dating in 1993, I used to have dinner at her parents house almost every week. her parents we shockingly hostile to each other in front of me. I thought they were kidding for a time. Later, WW told me about her father being a philanderer and her mother always crying. They are Catholic and unwilling to D. So - the real trauma occurred when WW was 16 y/o. Her mother (my MIL) had a revenge A. And then openly flaunted it to her dad (FIL). Apparently it was a very ugly scene in which he beat her in front of the kids, then tackled and was strangling her o the floor when it took all three kids to pry him off of her. It sounded really bad.

I think my WW fears this type of response from me, and is unwilling to talk about A because she thinks I will physically hurt her - Just like her dad did to her mom.

To me, it adds up.

I think you are missing some of the “hardline” basics.

“Hardline” is extremely hard for the BS. Yes – the BS. Definitely harder than for the WS.

IF your WW commits to reconciliation YOU – the BS – have to commit to reconciliation totally 100%. That includes working towards reestablishing trust, not dragging the affair out at each argument and moving on with the marriage. It requires that BOTH BS and WS talk openly about their goals, issues in the marriage, how they want things to be and to openly be willing to make changes.

So if your WW doesn’t like how you handle finances AND her arguments make sense… you can’t pull out the infidelity card and spend money. You two BOTH have to open up and make concessions.

So IF your WW decides to work on the marriage then you don’t go to MC because of the affair: You go to MC to work on the marriage.

Big difference.

So “hardline” like I see it here on SI is telling your wife:

“Of all the options in the universe then there is ONLY ONE worse than losing you. That is sharing you”

It’s also telling her:

“You can see OM. You can be as free as you want to. You can date, go out, whatever. But not as my wife”

It’s also telling her:

“I am moving out of infidelity. I will do that with you or without you. Just keep in mind that the further I get the less likely it is that you can catch up”

Look – she says she’s willing to commit IF you won’t pull the affair card all the time. But she has already told you she is willing to commit. She did so when she married you. That was broken. She did so after d-day. That was broken. Why should she be telling the truth now? She’s like an alcoholic that wakes up after a binge and promises to stop… but without any recovery work she’s doomed to repeat.

To keep with the alcoholism comparison: If this was alcoholism you were dealing with then her demand is comparable to her promising to stop drinking IF you commit to losing weight. Only she won’t stop until you drop down three pant sizes. If you do that THEN she will consider stopping drinking.

Think that would work?

Doubt it.

No – stick to the “hardline” of that a) While the affair is active there really is no marriage. Divorce is simply the technicality of confirming that. b) She can commit to the marriage. If she does that then you are willing to work at reconciliation – including learning how to deal with the infidelity. However – doing MC while she still sees OM is a bit like sneaking a quart to an AA meeting.

The A is over. mOM's outted to other BS. Other BS confirmed they are in R.

The BFF insisted today, WW has honored NC. I feel like it has, but can't be 100% absolutely sure. Also, mOM lives 100 miles away.(verified)

first, Biggers gave you great advice.

second:

She is waiting for me to show her I can change from the H I was before and make her happy.

That would have been my FWW 3 years ago. She blamed me for all the problems in the M, especially not making her happy. She was unhappy so I had to be the reason, right?

Two years of IC later FWW (and I) know the truth. It was her issues all along. The reason she was unhappy in the M, why she looked to OM for affirmation and to "make her happy".

You cannot save your M alone, and your WW is not willing at this point to look into herself for the reason she had an A. FWW also feared I would hurt and abuse her when I was angry after dday just as parents, xH's and others had done. That too was HER issue.

To be a full and healthy M partner, FWW had to work on fixing her sh*t (I did work too, but her's was the root). She had to overcome her shame and insecurity to be able to speak truth to me. Let me know when I hurt her, let me know what she wanted, be able to be honest with me about who she was.

Stop trying to decide on R or no R or D so soon. Give yourself 6 months to work on healing, decide what you want in a M, communicate your expectations to your WW very clearly. In 6 months decide if you are ready to make the decision.

ETA: I would put very little stock in what your WW's BFF said.

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 5:39 PM, September 5th (Wednesday)]

OK – so if you want to then get the message across to her (maybe by using the BFF):

You are willing to work at R.

To do this you are willing to find a good MC that can confirm that he/she has experience in dealing with infidelity.

Yes – there will be times that you pull out the A.

Yes – your level of trust will be 0 and therefore she needs to be totally transparent.

But you are willing to work on these issues.

You will NEVER EVER see “why” she needed the affair.

It will NEVER be explainable or justifiable.

At some point she has to show remorse.

It will be tough but if she commits to R then you are willing to do this.

But no compromises… You do not accept partial R or that she doesn’t be accountable.

Ok, this won't be popular; my opinion is similar to MC. I purchased and listened to the Mort Fortel CDs. My XH started , but never completed the system. Instead, he chose to continue drinking and such and I divorced him. Nonetheless, I do think the premise is valid. Now may not be the best time to talk about the A or a D. Instead, see if you can reconnect. Go to dinner, go to a movie, and so on. You still love her, so you should be able to have a date with her. She doesn't really want to D; go with that. Reconnect first, then you can talk about how to repair the R. Your MC won't see you bc you are not ready. That means you both have to go to IC first, to fix your individual coping problems before you can get the tools to fix the M.

I think that is you force her hand, you'll get you D easily enough. Risk another month and try to regroup.

When she says she doesn't want to hear about it all the time, she fears that you'll lord this over her forever. I have heard that too. It's maddening, but you can't keep lecturing like a parent to a child. At some point, it has to all be said and then you move on.

How about going to ICs and setting a date to revisit the topic and get all the answers to your questions and vent all that you want in a certain amount of time? Maybe the ICs could give you a realistic time frame.

Kchip. Does your WW have red hair? For a minutes you were describing my soon to be X. I got the I was not happy so you need to entertian me and also I will return under these conditions. I was told I needed to change Did not work. The issue was her and was always her. Fast forward years and we are only together on paper. She has moved out and our daughter chooses to live with me. She has even come up wit a story to explain this to ehr friends. says she liver with me becauise I let hyer do what she wants. As someone has already said. If you rug sweep this, be prepared to walk in the house and find some OM with his a** in the air on top of her.

I really woudn't care what your wife is telling her BFF, she needs to be able to tell and SHOW you.

I understand that it is encouraging to hear what the BFF has to say but just make sure all these words spoke to a third party are followed by action.

My point to posting was the fact that her BFF was willing to tlak to me and convey that WW cries all the time and has told her and others that she doesn't want it to be over.

Of course, she wants the M and no consequences from her A. Also, she may be lying to get attention. Who knows?

The ball should be in her court, not yours. Also, what Bigger said.

I think that is you force her hand, you'll get you D easily enough.

It's possible though several stories we read here in the forums tell otherwise. Either way, I believe that if she actually D that's what would eventually happen anyway. You would just getting a shortcut and avoiding another year of this misery.

Kchip,

I can hear how badly you want to save your marriage. Every post I have read from you is filled with pain and anguish and heartache, but most of all this desperate heartbreaking wish for your marriage to be healed. I hear you man and I understand. Truely I do. Fuck man, I was you, I AM you.

You have gotten a lot of good advice here so far. I don't think I really need to repeat any of it. Either you will hear it, and I mean really hear it, or you won't. Repeating it isn't going to make it stick. Hell I could come tattoo it on your forehead and it still wouldn't stick if you are just too hurt, confused and afraid to be able to accept it. I understand that as well. Been there, done that.

One thing that I think needs reiterating though... All of these things you feel like your wife needs from you in order to come back to you? All of those things have some merit. Sure you need to work on your own issues. You need to work on the preA marriage issues. You need to find a way to resist beating your WW over the head with her infidelity. You need to find a way to work through your anger in a healthy manner. You need to find it in your heart to trust her again, to respect her again.

Those are all things that people who are in Reconcilliation work on.

But you are NOT in Reconcilliation.

You will not be in Reconcilliation until such time as your WW is willing to accept her responsibility for her own actions. AND decides that she wants this marriage in general, and you more specifically. AND shows that she is willing to commit to doing whatever it takes to work through all of this bullshit she has created.

If you ever get that from her? Then you will be in Reconcilliation. Then you can do whatever you think will help the two of you work through this stuff. Then you can be as patient as you feel is warrented, as understanding as you are able, as accommodating as you need to be, as compromising as you feel is necessary. Whatever you think it takes to help the two of you work through this shit.

But up until you get that stuff from your WW? You doing those things won't be helping to fix her, won't be helping her out of the fog, you won't be meeting her halfway, you won't be saving any kind of real or meaningful relationship.

All you will be doing is coddling and enabling and reenforcing and validating the disfunctional thought processes of a damaged and deluded person. Who knows? It might actually save some kind of shallow sham of a marriage. Some sort of empty shell of something that once was... But it won't actually FIX anything. Because, as people here have been telling you over and over from day one:

You cannot fix her, she has to want to fix herself.

Reread what you wrote in the original post. Does your WW sound like she wants to fix herself? Of course not. And until she does all of your efforts, all of your sacrifices all of your tactical maneuvers add up to less than zero. Until she is ready to fix herself you are already divorced...

You just don't know it yet.

I am sorry to have to say that, truely I am. And it's not necissarily a death sentence. People, people right here on SI in fact, have managed to build back a relationship from worse places. But they did it together. Your WW isn't there right now. She might get there, she might not. I don't know. What i do know is that nothing you do or don't do is going to make her get there.

So please, for your own sake, stop trying. Don't just stop letting her dictate the rules of the game. Stop playing the game all together. Decide what you need, communicate that to her and if she is unwilling or unable to give that to you then move on with your life. It'll be tough, it'll be sad, but ultimately it will be what needed to happen.

Let me leave you with one last thing: I am a BH two years into what could only be described as a very successful Reconcilliation. Most guys here would tell you I am a lucky guy to have WOES as a FWW, to have the kind of R that I have had. And they would be right about that.

And still, two years out, I struggle with insecurities, I wrestle with doubts, I beat myself to death with regrets. I still to this day go over the past and regret some of the choices and sacrifices I made in the name of saving my marriage. I long for a time machine, for a reset, for a do over of so many things. Go read the betrayed mens thread or the timeline for regaining respect for your FWW threads in OCR and you will see a lot of reconcilling BH's just like me, that struggle with some of the same exact doubts as me, with the same regrets as me.

Reconciliation has a very real and personal cost on a visceral core level. People in R have had to sacrifice these little pieces of themselves. A little pride here, a little self respect there, a little bit of certainty, a little bit of innocence, a smidge of moral certitude. We sacrifice these little pieces because, in the end, we feel like we are getting something that is worth that personal cost.

So, before you decide to give up on the "hard line" as you put it. Before you decide to try and "nice" your WW back into your marriage. I'd like you to ask yourself this question:

Just exactly how much of yourself are you willing to pay? Just how much do you think it will buy? Do you think it is worth the price? And be sure of your answer man. Because you can't get a refund, there are NO do overs. Believe me I've looked for them.

Of course these are just my opinions. And as I have said before; I am just as full of shit as anyone else. I wish nothing but healing and happiness whatever path you go down.

HT

First, I have not agreed to "nice" my way to R. I don't live at home anymore. I am not trying to fix her, only suggesting IC at this point. And she is going. And the C is a tough cookie. She also was the MC and in my one on one with her gave me a dose of tough love. So I think she is going to get worked over pretty good in IC.

I have:

Told her I want NC with her.

Told her D is ready for sign/serve (which it is)

Told her my needs to R.

Maybe I really need to give it rest. Quit answering her calls/texts. Its hard because we have the kids and I am hearing this is all starting to take its toll on them. They ask me to come home and I can only tell them....soon, I hope soon.

I've done all I can to be kind, forgiving, even pampering at times. Yes, there were problems I needed to face, and did so and in the past 8 months. A few days ago, he says he is still not really happy, just doesn't feel the way he used to. It's dragging the life out of me and my kids, and getting me NOWHERE slowly. But I do know the pain and indecision you feel, will be thinking of you and hoping God shines a light on your path. Clarity is such a blessing.

I have read and reread this thread at least 5 times now.

I am going to begin 180 again and detachment.

Basically, I quit. Its up to her now. Thanks everyone.

kchip,

You're realy doing well. I know how hard it is to get through this. None of it is easy. The worst thing is that this was brought to you. You had nothing to do with it.

Hang in there, you will survive this. Unfortunately it's going to get worse before it gets better, but it will get better

There is great advice in this thread.

(((kchip))) Keep your head high.

The only thing I would add if get the WW's BFF out of the loop. For no other reason than that you're not hearing your WW's words. You're hearing what BFF heard and the retold.

Remember the broken telephone game?

BFF may not have understood it right, or may have added or subtracted stuff to make a very uncomfortable conversation easier on herself.

If your going to talk to your wife, do it face to face. No text, no phone calls. Just true communication. Let her see theh hurt she has caused.

HT nailed it, really. I tried the "non hardlline" approach for 7+ months, and it was the most frustrating, damaging, and painful regret of this whole experience.

You are doing the right thing, really, never doubt that for a second. By proceeding with the D and 180ing, she may or may not come around and do what is necessary to fix herself and the M, but know you are doing the right thing. Hang in there.

Agree there, many times Ive let others tell me they know he really loves me, and it just gave me false hope. Yeah, he loves me, that's why he shows remorse for two minutes in eight months, and has told me pretty much what you've heard. He asked why is it ok for you to need time to heal, but not ok for him to have time to miss her.