SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Can you explain this comment?

Sure. First that quote went with what I said above that, and is about his thinking, not yours. He thinks it would be fun to sleep with someone else (cake eat). He knows you feel bad and want to make the M work. He uses his ‘anger’ to get you to agree to him sleeping with someone else. It’s manipulation to get something (he thinks) he wants. It’s all about him, how can he get what he wants and who cares about how it effects anyone else, wayward thinking.

That makes sense, thanks nomoreplease.

Well put, nomoreplease.

I also agree with whoever said that Mr Calamity probably already has someone in mind he'd like to sleep with.

Okay, thoughts about an RA are common. Threatening or discussing an RA are also common. Sadly RA's are also common.

I have seen them pitched as fair, balancing the scales, wanting to show the other person how much it hurts, punishment, an exit, and a whole lot of other ways. I have never seen an RA described as pennance before. Even after 5 years, every time I start to think I have seen everything...

We can take it as read that the kissing was wrong, and it was a shock to find out years later, and that is something you are going to have to address, either in another thread, or IRL.

I guess my atonement would be to live with the pain like he is.

I assume that you already have your own pain over this. You are not going to be exchanging pain with each other, but making personal copies of each others pain, essentially doubling the amount of pain in your marriage. That is as a starting point. Then there is the realization that, assuming his motives are as "healthy" as he claims, there is another person out there who has been used in a way they don't deserve, may have feelings about all of this, may cause feelings in him, may be around for a while afterwards to inflict more pain on the both of you while she tries to deal with how she was used.

I really hope that this is just rambling on his part, and you are not seriously considering this, but people will generally do what they are going to do. If this really is going to be attempted, hire a professional that understands they are being used, and think of it as paying them to leave you two alone afterwards to get on with your lives.

I am sure you are thinking a few things. He didn't deserve to have this happen to him. Maybe You figure you got it coming to you now. I have a couple of movie quotes for you to ponder, both of them taken from a movie coincidentally titled Unforgiven:

Little Bill Daggett: I don't deserve this... to die like this. I was building a house.

Will Munny: Deserve's got nothin' to do with it.

The Schofield Kid: Yeah, well, I guess he had it coming.

Will Munny: We all got it coming, kid.

To answer your question and not get into the foray regarding the details this is something that has to be highly personalized to have its desired effect.

It really depends on what type of person your H is. What would mean the most to him. Love language may be a good start.

That said I think when he says penance what he is really talking about is being "even." Or restoring some sense of balance to the M.

This is a stage most BS, particularly BH, go through. With me I know I still struggle at times, but what has helped is that my W shares her feelings with me. In particular the remorse related ones.

It sounds really unhealthy and kind of sick, but knowing that my W was feeling pain over betraying me helped me deal with my feelings of wanting revenge, restitution, penance, etc.

After some time has passed the whatever physical manifestations occurred that resulted in betrayal the 8 years of lies and deception are really what the thing that is being remedied.

Are there some transparency steps you could take on your own ? Is there something he has always asked for (get your mind out of the gutter people :)) An old hobby he wants to take up, a trip, a toy he wants to buy, etc.

My guess is this stage will pass the more time you spend showing him that this caused some consequences to you too (feelings, guilt, remorse, etc.)

My W wrote me a letter ( I think it is still in recon if you go back a few pages.)

Best of luck and the fact that you are willing to put time and energy into figuring this out has probably done as much good as providing the actual thing itself.

[This message edited by numb&dumb at 1:27 PM, September 28th (Friday)]

"Does anyone else have any ideas for a penance? He did ask me what I thought a fair penance would be, but I don't know what to say. I don't know what will make him feel better."

Nothing will make him feel better right now and the comment "stuck in the marriage" is wrong. He's not stuck.

There is another post in this forum that touches a little on this. The article it referenced was about a man that sacrificed many things, in his view...being honest with family, the ability to brag about fidelity in his marriage to name a few. While I understand very well how someone else's choices can alter our planned future forever, I'll never forget the day my ex first laid a hand on me, I don't agree with that at all. He still has choices and he chose to keep her secret, chose to be faithful which he can still be proud of. Fidelity is individual. Even in a marriage. If one cheats the fidelity of the other isn't compromised. If one choses an action they own that action even if they didn't choose the circumstances surrounding it. If there were "passes" on that many affairs would be green lighted. Nope. Doesn't work that way.

He can divorce. He can separate. He can do nothing and take time to process this information. No, he's not going to be rationally thinking these things right now as he's reacting not responding to this. The fact remains. He has choices.

We don't have any say or choice over another's actions towards us or concerning us. We absolutely have 100% of the choice on how we respond to them.

I find some responses interesting I see here depending on how "likable" (for lack of a better word)some people described in posts seem. I think your husband stating he's entitled to an RA is perfectly understandable right now. I also think finding out that something that was an issue and continued to be an underlying one was in fact worse than originally revealed after a decision like marriage is devastating. What he's saying isn't absurd at all. In fact, there's a letter in the healing library that takes the wayward point by point down a very similar virtual idea...Joseph's Letter.

One thing I feel very strongly about personally, are options. While it can be easy to focus on the action and dismiss it as pre-marriage, "just" a kiss (not saying you're doing this), you robbed him of a critical piece of information he should have possessed in making a HUGE decision to marry you. It's basically fraud. I'm sure his rage is almost palpable. Mine would be. You acknowledged you were pretty sure his decision would have been not to go forward. Now, while he isn't stuck, whatever choice he makes is going to have life altering consequences for more than him. I'm not sure how one gets over that, honestly. I'm sure it can be done and there are amazing stories on here of people doing just that. Just hope you recognize the enormity.

Also, you haven't been faithful your whole marriage. Keeping a vital piece of information from someone knowing it would impact their decisions is a betrayal that is ongoing.

Your posts have raised some very real issues that need your attention and focus. Your people pleasing and your belief you are nothing without him are a couple. Very unhealthy and puts you in a compromised place to make any healthy choices or build strong healthy boundaries.

You can show him by consistent actions and transparency that you are committed to the marriage and to living an authentic life. You can tell him that you own your actions and you will not own his choices or his actions.

As another poster stated, it's hard to tell from posts, your husband may have other agendas as well. Regardless. It will come out in time. You need to keep your eyes on your goal of getting healthy and remaining available, loving, open, honest, transparent, and also aware. You're going to have to carry your own water on this. Don't reach out to him for comfort. I'm certain his plate is quite full.

Do not tolerate the intolerable, ever, from yourself or anyone else. Keep reading and posting. As you can see, there are many very wise members here.

ETA: Wow, I guess I worked on this for a while. Some of those wise posters already covered some of this very well. Not trying to pile on. 

[This message edited by uncertainone at 3:08 PM, September 28th (Friday)]

Calamitywife, I went back and read all of your posts in this thread in addition to your previous posts, as I was a little!(!) abrupt in my previous post. I was raised to be very Catholic and the whole notion of penance as something you do for a person as opposed to God is what sent off my alarms. Your descriptions of yourself as a people pleaser, your being removed from family, and the fact that it seems as if your entire marriage has been a series of struggles; I seriously worry about what "penance" you could come up with. The idea of a grand gesture makes me much more comfortable, but outside of the usual, I would say that the biggest thing you could do is work on yourself, and maybe something will reveal itself.

At the moment he hurts as any BS does. He was betrayed by you and has every right to hurt.

BTW I disagree that he is making a mountain out of a molehill...it's less about the kiss and more about the lies to keep this quiet IMO. So if you confessed all this time later, good for you. You've stopped lying to him and the betrayal stops, but the hurt and fallout is now so real to deal with.

So now he wants to go on dates until he feels a spark with someone and can kiss them and possibly sleep with them. And he thinks I just need to be OK with that.

No. I'd say no. I'm not ok with this. This is not a healthy coping strategy and it will not ease the pain. You KNOW the pain the WS feels - the guilt and horror at their own actions and are taking steps to deal with and rectify this. Great. It's nothing compared to my BS's pain but still if your BS becomes a WS as well he'll have two lots of shit to deal with.

This isn't penance. This isn't about atonement IMO. RA are about hurt, anger and pain and trying to remove them. Sometimes they're about entitlement. Sometimes emotional blackmail. But never are they healthy.

BTW how many dates would he like? Until he finds someone he has a spark with? 1? 2? 5? 10? When he finds that spark is is just a kiss? Of course not. That spark means he's in an A...he's actively trying to find someone other than you attractive and manipulate them into liking him to kiss them...Will he tell them he's married? Will they care? Will it stop at the kiss?

Urgh no. I understand why the BS thinks and even fantasises about an RA. But the reality is just more pain. Maybe get him looking at the madhatters forum to read the fallout from the BS/WS situation. He also needs to realise that HIS RA could be a deal breaker for YOU.

I agree with UO too. Work on yourself to become strong, healthy and authentic. Give him support and consistency, but don't give him a free rein to an open marriage, RA or any other faulty coping strategy.

Among many other things that folks already mentioned one of the problems with RAs is that the BS thinks it will be guilt-free. A guilt-free hall pass, something the WS can never throw back in their face. The BS who plans and goes beyond "thinking about" an RA does not want to think that they too will be a WS. They would prefer to think that they are a BS who had a RA. Like any wayward thinking, it's the line of "reasoning" a hurt BS will use to give himself or herself permission to step over the line. I did. In the relationship before my H (in my relationship with H, my motivation wasn't revenge on H or even an A - but I betrayed him anyway ), I thought I "deserved" to have a ONS since the ex was cheating. Thought, well we don't really have a relationship anymore, do we? Why would he care, he has someone...

While your H might be talking and not really meaning it, if he does mean it, he should know and not be let off the hook that he has chosen as well to become a WS.

Now, about penance...

I agree with whoever said that penance is more about what you as the WS can actively do to atone for your sins. I do not believe that suffering as a BS is one of those things, because it is not an active choice on your part (you do not choose to be a BS, ever).

I think that examining your boundaries is a good start. If there are friends who have encouraged bad boundaries, not only release those friends, but do so with a declaration of love to your marriage. If there are places that make your H uneasy, give up those places. Search out places that are safe for your husband and you to share. Give the love to your husband that should have been for him all along. Those are necessary repentance.

Repenting means changing your behavior and vowing not to do something hurtful again. It sounds like you're already on the way. Repentance isn't a one-time thing either - it's a lifestyle change with the utmost dedication.

It sounds like he has in mind 'restitution'. And getting to cheat on you is NOT proper restitution. If restitution is about "making things right", I can't think of anything more wrong than more cheating.

What's your husband's love language? Maybe that could be part of where the restitution happens. If his is words of affirmation, part of the restitution could be to pay him back in words, compliments, willingness to take initiative in talking about your A, affirming him and soothing him and reassuring him, using a lot of words. If it's acts of service, maybe you can do the laundry and housework, dedicate yourself to it, and find the things he usually does himself (i.e. washing the car, mowing the lawn, whatever that is) and surprise him by doing them without saying anything. If it's quality time, then maybe you spend a lot more time with him, make it a point to spend time everyday with him and find things, hobbies, that he likes to do, spending a lot of time connecting and putting energy into time together, and showing him thankfulness for it. If it's physical touch, maybe it's expanding what you know of him and finding ways to touch him and show him how desirable and loved he is to you both in and outside of the bedroom. Maybe it's finding ways to subtly touch him in almost any situation, especially if you're out in public together (like a peck, or putting your hand on his arm, etc.). If it's gifts, maybe it's giving him his favorite candy, or surprising him by buying him new undershirts if his are getting worn, or bringing home his favorite food at the end of a long day... Maybe restitution means doing those things often and with the utmost care and temporarily not asking for very much yourself. Focusing on his needs. Building something positive for him.

Hopefully some other members will come along with wiser thoughts. But NO - it is NOT okay for him to cheat on you and call that restitution. You do not have to be okay with that.

(((hugs)))

To start, cw, a revenge affair isn't pennince, it's punishment. I've seen many threads on here about them and never have they helped a situation. It's permission that he seeks to do something many of the ws's here regret so much that ours near debilitating.

Second, silverhope, thank you for your last post on here. I too have been struggling with how to help my BS feel better, and your ideas are a breath of fresh air for me this morning. Thank you.

There are many helpful things written here, and I thank the other posters a well for their insight on how we as waywards can make things better.

Thank you to everyone who responded to my thread.

I want to say that I do not feel at all that he is making a mountain out of a molehill. I have caused so much pain and doubt in this relationship and I completely understand that I have broken his trust. I have broken my own trust, and broken both of our hearts.

It's hard to get the complete story on here with every detail and experience but I know how deeply I have hurt him and his feelings are completely justified.

We talked a lot this weekend about the RA and I told him that I don't think it will bring anything good into our relationship. He agrees and said that he could never actually go through it because it would be going against his own beliefs. My husband is the most loyal and loving man and I know that he doesn't really want to be with another woman. He just wants me to feel his pain. To remember his pain the next time another man is in front of me. I totally get it. But for me, the pain that I feel right now knowing how much I have hurt him, me and our family is so unbearable, I can't imagine taking on any more pain into our relationship.

I have asked him to still try and find a penance that he is comfortable with. I want him to know just how dedicated I am to this relationship. How much I truly do want it to work. I finally truly broke down to him this weekend, he saw me crying on the floor, bawling, and really feeling everything. It was scary, and pathetic, and amazing. To show him how much pain I am really in knowing what I've done to our marriage.

He says that he does want to R, and that he wants our marriage to work. I promise myself and him that I will never do anything to jeopardize our relationship again. I am terrified that he will change his mind, and decide that he can't live with me, live with the pain that I caused him. But it is worth it, and it's the mess that I made. I fully acknowledge that.

One day at a time... one foot in front of the other.