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There are wide and broad and far and deep differences on the need and value of "forgiveness." I am glad you have found a path that works for you, 1Faith.

The story to me wasn't about Faken or Hilda so much as the gift of letting go and learning to forgive.

This is how I took it. And I'm someone who until very recently has made his WW's life miserable since D Day. OK, she made both our lives miserable by her betrayal, but the point is I reminded her of it every day for about 4 months. Message delivered, loud and clear.

As BS's we're certainly entitled to our pain and outrage. The problem happens when you start marinating in your hurt and it becomes your identity. The affair is cruel, but there comes a point when punishing a remorseful wayward becomes just as cruel. Both can be incredibly destructive. At some point you have to go all-in on reconciliation or all-in on separation / divorce. If you choose the former, I don't know how you get there without genuine forgiveness.

If you choose the former, I don't know how you get there without genuine forgiveness.

Stubbornness?

These eyes would allow her to go back to the beginning of her hurt and rationalizations and see her Fouke, not as an enemy that did not love her enough, but as an imperfect man who loved her as best he could and who could be all of the husband she needed if only she could find the courage to ask it of him instead of simply waiting passively for it to happen on its own.

If only such a thing were possible.

what happens when we don't have the ability to forgive and choose to pursue bitterness and hatred? askAhab or Khan how that worked for them.

1faith,

I absolutely get the message of the importance of forgiveness and letting go. It is a painful but necessary lesson that I have been learning over and over every day of the last three years of a very successful reconciliation.

Don't misunderstand me, I appreciate and value the message of the original allegory. It just the way the story is written that gives me a psychosomatic case of the hives.

Look, hurt and damaged people hurt and damage other people. Those newly hurt and damaged people go on to hurt and damage other people, and round and round we go. At some point someone has to decide that the cycle stops with them.

That decision? The choice to be the one who decides to stop the cycle, that turns the other cheek, that refuses to hit back? That choice involves a heroic level of pride swallowing, ego crushing, ethically contradictory compromises and self sacrifice. I for one feel like that kind of sacrifice deserves respect and admiration. Too often though, fables and allegories and even main stream modern entertainment depict the betrayed as some sort of stuff necked, uncompromising, hard asses that require the intervention of some outside force. Some "angel", to make them see the error of their unforgiving ways and stop being such meanies.

I felt the first story had a flavor of that and it sometimes rubs me the wrong way. Even now, 3 years into a Reconcilliation that I have never for a minute regretted undertaking, that stuff can still rub me the wrong way.

After all, timing is everything. If we are going to imagine intervening angels with mystical magical eyes can't we also image those angels intervening a little bit earlier and helping to save everyone a lot of pain? If not then I guess the conclusion we would have to draw is that the angels must have felt that the betrayal needed to happen if for no other reason than to teach a valuable lesson the the betrayed.

I'd hope there might be an easier way to teach that sort of lesson.

Anyhoo, just my perspective. I agree with the message of the fable, just thought the delivery needed some work.

HT

what happens when we don't have the ability to forgive and choose to pursue bitterness and hatred?

Why are those the only two options? Who made that rule? I don't accept that, at all.

All, I can understand where you all are coming from. The fable was one I chose to share I did not write it. It's a concept.

I get that it could have been crafted differently without the illustrations of blame, shame, etc.

Again, in the end the central message to me was based on letting go of the bitterness and hatred in order to begin anew.

I realize that not every WS is remorseful, I get that not everyone is in the place where they want to forgive or can.

But since this is a reconciliation forum I assumed everyone here is hoping to get to the place they start a new and better relationship with their WS.

rec·on·cil·i·a·tion

[rek-uhn-sil-ee-ey-shuhn]

1. the process of making consistent or compatible.

However, reconciliation is process. In order to move forward if you truly want to reconcile - at some point you have to let go of the bitterness and hatred. It only weighs you down and holds you back.

The "angels" to me are an awakening (in any form) of taking back your life from all the hurt and despair and determining your path forward.

Heck yeah, I wish they had intervened A LOT earlier but I also know there are lessons to learn from everything.

Each scar has a story but in the end I am still standing. That is success. I embrace it.

Sending healing and hopeful hugs your way.

askAhab or Khan how that worked for them.

KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN...?

1Faith:

I think the concept was conveyed much better in your own words. And I agree with what your saying.

The "angels" to me are an awakening (in any form) of taking back your life from all the hurt and despair and determining your path forward.

That there ^^^^^ is a good concept. Didn't get that perception that from the fable.

The fable IMO is down right insulting to the betrayed. The vagueness and the negative light that Faken is portrayed in, has wayward thinking written all over it.

I also agree that it probably depends on your current location on the R timeline. If I sold my car so I could afford Mr. Reynolds take on things, and he told me that (even if someday it would be applicable to me)... right now, think we might have to throw down.

HT rocks.

Nuf said.

I have to agree with J.R.R. Tolkien and Gandalf..... errr, I mean, aesir, that allegory is subversive.

Stubbornness?

That is what got me through the first 8 months of Reconciliation, w_a_l !

It really saddens me to see so many BS's with all this angst about forgiveness. I want to say just chill out! So many other things to work on, put forgiveness on the back burner for awhile, don't even think about it. Forgiveness takes time, it is a process. If you are open to it, it will come In. Its. Own. Time.

What is the rush to forgiveness? Why do so many waste so much time on wanting or not wanting to forgive? Anyone who is taking a chance with a WS has made a first step in the forgiveness or acceptance direction. You are on the path.

I personally feel it more important for the WS to forgive themselves. That certainly shouldn't be a rushed thing either. They need to earn their own forgiveness. If they don't forgive themselves I feel they are just setting themselves up for needing all kinds of inappropriate validation.

I also agree with Rebreather that not forgiving someone doesn't lead to bitterness and hatred. As long as you don't let your unforgiveness consume you, you're gold. I don't feel I will ever forgive the OW. I will not be bitter or consumed by hatred. I will not give a poop! Maybe that means forgiveness or maybe that means acceptance or maybe that means meh, doesn't matter because it doesn't matter.

eta: to fix word

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 4:41 PM, July 12th (Friday)]

WAL yup, that's who I was referring to. that episode and Moby Dick seem to have a lot of common elements.

What SMS said.

I understand where you are coming from 1Faith. I've experienced a boat load of resentment and wanted a pound of flesh in return. I also shadow boxed with the past till it beat me down. But I don't necessarily think that was 'bad' given the circumstances.

My husband and I were talking about the concept of forgiveness late last night. We were laying in bed and should have been sleeping but he was chatty and talking about what he had read in a book yesterday.

The book is Toxic Parents, but the idea is universal:

Many clients rushed to forgiveness to avoid much of the painful work of therapy. They believed that by forgiving they could find a shortcut to feeling better. A handful of them '"forgave", left therapy and wound up sinking even deeper into depression and anxiety. Several of these clients clung to their fantasies: "All I have to do is forgive and I will be heal, I will have wonderful mental health, everybody is going to love everybody, we'll hug a lot, and we'll finally be happy." Clients all too often discovered that the empty promise of forgiveness had merely set them up for bitter disappointment. Some of them experienced a rush of well-being, but it didn't last because nothing had really changed in the way they felt or in their (family) interactions.

I'm paraphrasing another passage in the book here -- Emotional and mental peace comes only after you have worked through your intense feelings of outrage and grief and after you've put the responsibility of those feelings onto the shoulders of the person who wronged you and who you want to forgive.

I feel forgiveness is a process, much like R is a process. It takes time and it develops slowly. Forgiveness given early or lightly is cheap IMO. My husband agrees. We discussed where I am in the process and it should be noted my husband has never and would never ask for my forgiveness directly. He's not waiting around or working toward me saying the words specifically. It's not this huge 'thing' hanging over our heads or a conscious goal that I am striving for. I take it as it comes.

Just the word forgiveness or reading about it used to make me seethe. Now it does not, because I have processed through a lot of the horror.

The fact that that my husband and I can discuss this in detail tells me we are in a very good place in R, and I forgave him for keeping me up late talking.

SisterMilkshake

I am 19 months into R so there certainly wasn't a rush toward forgiveness.

I couldn't agree more, forgiveness comes with time and it comes with the process of healing for some.

It is up to every individual if they want to forgive or not. Not saying its mandatory but for me it was a catalyst in my continued healing.

If people are getting tripped up on the word forgiveness then how about learning to "let go" of the pain and anger?

Again, just was trying to inspire not ignite.

Have a great weekend everyone.

(((hugs)))

1Faith, I don't feel you ignited anything. I enjoy different peoples perspectives and debate on a subject as long as everyone is respectful of each other, which is how this thread is progressing. I love it when someone starts a thread where we can have lively fun debate.

Please don't take anything I have posted here as an attack on you. I don't care for the fable, but I don't blame you for that. I enjoyed your post on the previous page on the 5 gifts of forgiveness. If it was FB, I would "Like".

I wasn't directing "the rush to forgiveness" to you. It was an in general "you". Sorry I wasn't clear on that. That being said, I am 3 years out from d-day. I still don't think I have fully finished the process of forgiveness of my FWH. But, I am not worried about it either.

Thanks SisterMilkshake

No offense taken. I just feel bad if I have upset someone with one of my posts.

I agree, healthy debate and other's POV is good for all of us. It helps us think about things in different ways which is always good.

Keeps an open mind and helps us to challenge ourselves.

Keep posting. I love your perspective and comments.

(((hugs)))

(((1Faith))) Right back atcha!

ask Ahab or Khan how that worked for them.

Nobody writes epic stories about healthy people.

what happens when we don't have the ability to forgive and choose to pursue bitterness and hatred?

Kinda the plot of Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter.