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My BS maintains that I should be willing to do anything she wants without expectation of receiving anything in return.

4 years into limbo? 3.5 years no physical intimacy? I'm trying to get a handle on what you're describing. I'm going to armchair quarterback here, and may be off the mark.

1) all the romance and romantic gestures in the world on your part won't work. She's set up "R" to fail, consciously or otherwise.

2) deep down she is, in either a calculating or possibly subconscious way, expressing anger and revenge at you. You ripped her heart out. So she gets to string you along and make you a trained monkey in the dysfunctional circus your marriage has become.

3) this allows her to avoid addressing herself, and healing her for her, because she is so afraid and in so much pain.

4) and she has allowed a sense of righteous indignation to excuse being stuck and basically wanting to watch the marriage die. You stand by your "marital plant" with a watering can that is at least partially filled by your efforts to change and be safe for her. And she won't allow you to pour the water on. But she does expect you to keep going out to the well and bringing more buckets of water in to pile on the floor next to the dying, parched plant. Her "marital martyrdom" means the marriage she feels you've killed will be all your fault when it does fail/die.

5) no sex, in her mind, accomplishes two things. Withholds/punishes you for the very act you engaged in to kill the marriage. And dares/ challenges you to NOT go out and do it again which would, again, justify her detachment from you and the marriage.

I may be way off base. I am no counselor. YMMV. And most definitely IMHO.

These are just my impressions from reading this thread, and they may or may not be applicable, right, or helpful, but I did want to share them as they are my gut impressions. I am not blaming her for your affair, or excusing you for initially ripping your marital plant out of the ground, roots and all.

I feel sad and concerned for you both, and your marriage. And more so for her.

JD

[This message edited by JustDesserts at 6:57 AM, August 31st (Saturday)]

My BS wants me to make her feel special by taking her on dates & generally being romantic. My problem is that aside from being way outside my comfort zone,(I have never been romantic)

Are you in a stalemate? You will not try any romantic dates until she agrees to sex?

I do agree that perhaps another go of MC should be looked at. ONE session is not enough. ANd perhaps some IC as well.

Without MC and IC for both of us our R would not be where it is.

My therapist also did show me that I needed to begin to help myself heal and not ONLY rely on by WS. At some point, I had to put in effort too. Sure I could blame him over and over and over and just sit in my pity and do nothing, or I could take an active role in addition to him and THAT is when true healing for me finally began.

My husband isn't very "romantic" either. But I desperately needed him to be. To put as much effort into me as he did into his affairs (not that they were romantic, they weren't but as much effort he took to work at them). I asked him to please try to plan some dates. It had NOTHING to do with money, I didn't need extravagant, I just need EFFORT. The first date he planned was a hike at a park I like with a picnic. I loved it.

What I needed was emotional intimacy from him. I can not have sexual intimacy without emotional intimacy. Especially because he's a recovering sex addict and he acted out with me for years.

As for self esteem, every BS goes through that. It's very difficult to climb out of that hole. My husband had 4 AP's. He has said it was never about looks, but still. I've seen pictures of them all. I analayze EVERYTHING. THey were Hispanic (except one) and I'm not. I made the mistake of asking once if they were tighter/looser. Well his LTA of over 2+ years was tighter, even though she had 3 kids. I should have never asked because I can't get that out of my head. I asked if he liked that more and he's said no, but I don't know that I believe that. SO it's difficult to just push that aside.

It's taken...therapy for me. A lot of self work. And, a lot of trust in what my husband says about me, which is the hardest thing ever. It's difficult for me to believe him when he says I'm beautiful or sexy. Yet I have to remind myself he does feel that way. He wouldn't just say it.

Honestly try to discuss MC again, even if she won't go, maybe go to IC for yourself. ALso, just plan some dates. Simple doesn't mean bad. Yet it shows EFFORT.

I think at ANY age the trauma is there. I mean I'm only 36, but my husband slept with a woman 10 years younger and one of his intended AP's was even younger than that (by 15 years). I can tell you certainly it was a blow to my self esteem. I've had five kids, multiple abdominal surgeries to health issues. I can say for certain my body is not nearly as nice as someone that much younger than me. It hurt.

Time helps heal, yes. I agree. But how MUCH time? Of course healing takes years, but I don't know that it's fair to either party to completely have zero physical intimacy dictated by one spouse and say "Hey, lots of marriages are like this."

SlowUptake, my WH did almost the exact same things you did! He used to travel for work, and would find women on dating sites and Craigslist to hook up with. He also had sex with a prostitute he found on Backpage.

He has also been doing the same stuff you have since DDay -- transparency, honesty, joined SI with me, willing to do MC and IC, also attends SAA meetings and reads the books on SA. We are only 2 1/2 months out from DDay, but the stuff he did REALLY hurts. I think what she is doing is part of her own coping mechanism; she's trying not to let herself ever be that vulnerable to you again. That being said, she isn't doing anything to heal herself, just cover up the pain.

She is also perhaps very insecure about herself, and especially about having sex with you. I know I have asked my WH how I "measure up" to his sexual trysts. He tells me they were horrible, that I'm worlds better, on and on...but if I was so much better, why would he have felt the need to go out there and do it in the first place? Something about me just wasn't fulfilling enough to him. That may be how she's feeling right now. Yes, even 3 1/2 years later.

I do agree that she needs to do something to heal herself, but prepare yourself in case her healing involves leaving you altogether. I know that's something I have thought of MANY times since DDay.

Hi all

@JustDesserts

I have unfortuneatly entertained these conclusions at times myself, but other things remind me that in all other aspects of our marriage my BS is a kind & caring person. I mean how many wives get out of bed an hour before they have to, every week day morning to make & pack their husband's lunch (not because I'm incapable) just because she cares for me. This is but one example.

(They are awesome lunches by the way, the envy of my coworkers) .

I should also point out that I'm not anywhere near the perfect remorseful WS.

Many of the things I do to help my BS heal have taken a very long time to happen. There are things my BS wants me to do that I have not done.

Are you in a stalemate? You will not try any romantic dates until she agrees to sex?

We are at a stalemate. It's not agreeing to sex that I want, given her mind movies, fears, & disgust I realise that would be unrealistic. What I would like is a committent to work on it, i.e. actions to slowly build up to it.

We have discussed this, but we don't seem to be able to reach an agreement on a plan.

I must at this point correct an ommission on my part.

About a year & half ago we did try to restart our sex life.

After trying a few times I couldn't continue. The problem was mine,I couldn't cope with the fact that she was 'faking it till she made it'. It felt like I was raping her.

At the time I was very insensitve in communicating my reason for stopping.

I think I said something like "This isn't going to work, it's like having sex with a blow up doll"

My idiotic comment lowered her self esteem even further.

It is understandable that she is hesitant to try again.

What I am lacking is the motivation to continue without some indication in the form of actions on her part that things will get better. This is what I struggle with.

Many of the things I do to help my BS heal have taken a very long time to happen. There are things my BS wants me to do that I have not done.

What was/is your motivation for doing these things? Is it just because she wants you to?

If she backs off on her requests, would you then stop your efforts?

I do agree that she needs to do something to heal herself, but prepare yourself in case her healing involves leaving you altogether. I know that's something I have thought of MANY times since DDay.

I am prepared I think. I let go of the outcome a while back.

Even though I realise 'not divorcing' is a decision, I have asked my BS on more than one occasion to please make a decision one way or another, start R or S&D.

What was/is your motivation for doing these things? Is it just because she wants you to?

Very good question.

In the beginning and for too long a time I struggled with consistancy, it was all about compliance to get out of the shitstorm and make it go away.

My BS says that for about the last 8 months she has seen a change from compliance to remorsefulness.

I think it has been longer, but at the end of the day it's how she feels about my efforts that's important.

I'm still a work in progress though.

If she backs off on her requests, would you then stop your efforts?

I don't think so. Most of what I do, while starting out as compliance has become "it's just what I do", they require no conscience effort.

One thing that does require conscience effort is random apologies for my past actions. The frequency of my efforts in this regard seem to oscilate wildly. I'm working on it.

"This isn't going to work, it's like having sex with a blow up doll"

Oh, my. BTDT. Except I was told, necrophilia. Can you blame her for not wanting to be humiliated this way? IDK what the answer is. Tons of gentleness? Brutal honesty and abject apologies for your insensitivity?

For me, I would love to be able to get past this. But there have been other times that my SAFWH has been cruel, unrelated to sex. I don't trust him in or out of bed. Could that be true of you? I have investigated various marriage programs that build emotional and then physical intimacy, but haven't found one that seems right.

Let me know if you figure it out, I'll pass it on. PM me if you want...

Most of what I do, while starting out as compliance has become "it's just what I do", they require no conscience effort.

That is very cool.

Have you ever tried romance with no expectation of sex? Even during your courtship?

We tried MC a few months after Dday, but my BS felt that the MC was concentrating too much on marital issues & not enough on my cheating. So we only went to one session. I agreed at the time but now I'm not so sure.

I have not read all of the responding posts but this statement from you stood out to me.....

A's are always based on something be it issues relating only the WS or issues in a marriage that left the WS open to other options.

What your comment made me feel is that your wife does not feel in any way she has any part of your A associated with marriage woes. To me it is like she feels this is 100% a piece of your DNA that has nothing to do with her or your marriage.

How do you feel about that? Is that a correct statement?

In most cases there was something really missing in a marriage to cause an A. I will admit in my own marriage there was a horrible lack of intimacy be it physical or mental as well as underlying issues that both of us help from the other spouse.

MC does look at the total package.....what is she afraid of????

T

for a six month period I had a ONS with two prostitutes, dated an OW, carried on like a single man(went to bars, got drunk, flirted with women etc.) while working overseas. I also viewed porn during most of our marriage despite my BS's strong objection to doing so.

While my porn viewing wasn't an addiction as such, in my case I do think it was the first step on the slippery slope of giving myself permission to cheat.

SU: Wow, your story sounds nearly identical to mine except for a few differences. I hurt my poor BS in many of the same ways. I'm still working on convincing her that R is worth the effort. I think a lot of the responses have some good points. I would like to offer up some helpful insight since our situations are very similar.

My BS wants me to make her feel special by taking her on dates & generally being romantic. My problem is that aside from being way outside my comfort zone,(I have never been romantic) I also want something. My BS maintains that I should be willing to do anything she wants without expectation of receiving anything in return.

This is something I am working on as well. For 6 years, I was not fully committed to our relationship. My wonderful BS was willing to let her guard down, love me wholly and truly for who I was, and I took advantage of her feelings. There were times I did loving and nice things for my BS, but on the whole I was very selfish and detached. Instead of being flirty and romantic with my loving BS, i put those efforts on other people at various times during our relationship. So one of my "life changes" I am making is working on courting my wife and being more romantic and affectionate towards her. In my situation, my wife has given so much in the past 6 years, whereas I have given little in comparison. I feel I should be willing to do anything she wants at this point without expecting anything in return. I view what I did as so selfish and hurtful, that I should do whatever it takes to give her a reason to want to R with me. As an example, I now make sure to greet my wife with a very loving kiss/embrace as soon as I walk through the door coming home from work. I ask her at least once a week to dance with me in the evening. It doesn't have to be a long dance, just holding each other and connecting on an intimate level for a little while. This helps me reconnect with my wife and also helps her to feel like I am courting her again. I also sing to her at night (even though I sound like nails on a chalkboard). She knows I hate singing, but I'm going out of my comfort zone for her to make the effort. One of the biggest gestures I've made is going on a rollercoaster for her. I am terrified of rollercoaster, yet I went on one with her to prove I'm truly willing to make changes and be the husband I should have been all along. My wife knows how much I hate rollercoaster, so for her, this was a big step. We've had some ROUGH days since, but that single act does help her on down days. So my recommendation is to find what you are willing to do outside of your comfort zone for your wife. I'm hoping that she'll appreciate your gesture as much as my BS appreciated mine and your intimacy problem will start to diminish.

Unfortunately it has taken me back to a mindset I thought I was completely over, you know the one, "I'll never be able to do enough", "it's no use, she'll never get over it", "I should just give up and pull the plug" etc.

I know this feeling all to well. I've been here and thought this same thought. However, I take one look at my Beautiful BS and I instantly have the motivation to re-engage and fight for my M. Some of my BS's recurring questions are: "why do you want this/me?" "Why do you want to live your life always walking on egg shells or under the shadow of what you've done?" "Wouldn't it be easier to start over with someone else?!" The answer to the first two is simple...I love my wife and I know I've made a huge mistake. I want to grow old with her, raise our family together, and hopefully someday be able to make all of this up to her. She's my best friend (although I haven't treated her as such obviously), the woman I'm most attracted to, and the one who I hate to imagine my life without. Would it be easier to start over and possibly find someone else...yes. But taking the easy way is not what I want and not what my BS deserves. I was guilty of taking the easy way before in my M, but that's not a mistake i'm willing to accept ever again! If she chooses to R with me, she deserves to have the loving, doting husband who will always protect, always care, and always put her first. I know I can be that man and I am making those changes to make it happen. So in answer to your question of how to get past your rejection: I would say you're on the right path. It's gonna be hard most days. You have to find what's motivating you to stay and why you want to put forth the effort knowing that the R may never happen. It's out of your hands how she reacts, One of the best words of wisdom I've gotten here is this: "you can't change her mind, but you can give her a reason to want to (change it herself)". -TimeToManUp

[This message edited by 1DumbHusband at 11:30 PM, August 31st (Saturday)]

I don't post at all. But BW and I are trying to do SI together. What I mean is take this with a grain of salt, I'm not a very experienced member of this forum

My wife's love language is words of affirmation. I found the same problem of her not believing me, even now. But writing little notes and leaving them there for her to find seems to work a treat.

My wife pointed out that there is nothing of the things you listed to make her feel special. You do all the right things but your wife wants to have a more emotional connection with you.

I have the same problem, I'm not romantic but I have to sometimes suck it up and just do it. And it's not that bad anyway, I get her flowers, we just usually get something to eat and go to the movies.

Easy and apparently that's romantic

Sometimes you just have to do it.

[This message edited by mrmarx at 2:09 AM, September 1st (Sunday)]

What your comment made me feel is that your wife does not feel in any way she has any part of your A associated with marriage woes. To me it is like she feels this is 100% a piece of your DNA that has nothing to do with her or your marriage.

I may be reading this incorrectly, but are you saying that my BS should share some blame in my choice to cheat?

If so, I strongly disagree. My choice to cheat was 100% on me. I could have done a lot of things to address my perceived problems with our marriage or end it if no solution or compromise could be reached.

I will say though, that when the subject of issues with the marriage pre-cheating are discussed, I have noticed a pattern with my BS, she will admit 'Yes I ....was.....wasn't.....didn't .....did, but that's because you were......were not.....didn't.....did.....'.

@mrmarx. Thankyou for the suggestions. I'll give it a go.

Just wanted to add

movies seem to take off all the pressure of 'being romantic' I don't even understand what 'being romantic' is.

Honestly I think it's just an excuse for going out and 'doing something' and getting flowers or chocolate.

In terms of sex, my old counsellor said a 'naked massage' is how to get the spark back. It only works if both are good at giving massages though. I reckon if you gave a naked massage a go after taking her out it might go okay.

Also maybe you just need to do one of those big gestures that romantic people always seem to pull off. Like a hot air balloon ride and then going to a pre-booked hotel get a bit tipsy with the poison of your choice. Maybe you and your wife are too stubborn and if you do a big grand gesture the stalemate will be broken?

Again, I am not romantic, I share your pain. I would rather eat pizza and watch the cricket then do any of that crap. Be cheaper too.

By the way, I am not sure about the naked massage, but my wife would not touch or look at me at all. And I am not a stoner, but my friend gave me some and we smoked it, bam, it broke down the wall. So maybe a bit of alcohol could help

In terms of sex, my old counsellor said a 'naked massage' is how to get the spark back. It only works if both are good at giving massages though. I reckon if you gave a naked massage a go after taking her out it might go okay.

Thanks for the suggestion, unfortuneatly I have not had the pleasure of seeing my BS naked in three & a half years. The hurt runs that deep.

that sucks,

still would go for over the top gesture though. Also I wonder if you did it at a hotel it would get rid of that 'failed' attempt. I think some people are like that, I know my wife is.

as realestate agents say

"location location location"

I just don't know how you do it. Three and a half years is a long time. Regardless of infidelity, it's still a marriage.

edited to add that I completely disagree with 'Just desserts' analysis of this, I think it paints your wife in a completely unfair light. I think there is just a wall that needs to be broken down and I don't think it's as complicated as it's being made out to be.

She doesn't want to have sex (apparently)

You do

She wants to reconnect emotionally

You don't seem to know how to go about it because the wall of china has been put up

I think you both want sex and you both want to be connected to eachother. Sometimes over the top gestures work, apparently it's the effort. Stalemate, i'm going to quote him although I hate him

"needs to be the hero of this relationship" - Dr Phil

"We have discussed this, but we don't seem to be able to reach an agreement on a plan. "

Write the plan yourself and say I want us to start 'reconnecting'. For the next month

[This message edited by mrmarx at 8:22 AM, September 1st (Sunday)]

Wow, physical intimacy after the A is one of the toughest things for a WS as well as the BS. I think its really difficult when one of the reasons for the A was sex. Then when the R starts and the WS is transparent and open and the BS asks for lots of details and those details include the sexual encounters.

This leads to increased insecurities and loss of self esteem on the part of the BS. What are we WS's supposed to do? Here we are trying to R, being open and honest about everything, and in so doing contributing to the loss of self esteem and worsening of our situation with regards to trying to save the marriage. Then if we are intimate what about the pressure to 'perform' with our BS?

All in all its a bad situation. I see no solution other than to weather the storm, keep doing what we as WS's can do (which is clean OUR side of the street) and pray that our BS comes around. Even trying to talk to them about it is dangerous, I guess it all boils down to how long and difficult the healing process is. It is unique for each individual. Some of us WS's really struggle with the large amount, or lack of detail that our BS wants about the A. With each BS being different, there is no one answer, we just have to stick to the promise to be transparent and ask that the BS really think about what they are asking and why. I see the problem as the BS needing information to make a decision to stay or not stay in the marriage. Those would be the questions I would think you want us WS's to be honest and transparent about. Now ask yourself, are the details of sexual positions or locations really one of the questions that helps you make that decision?

@mrmarx

edited to add that I completely disagree with 'Just desserts' analysis of this, I think it paints your wife in a completely unfair light. I think there is just a wall that needs to be broken down and I don't think it's as complicated as it's being made out to be.

Fair enough. If after 4 years from DDay, and 3.5 year of no marital sex, and slowuptake writing

she still has not made a decision to reconcile

you are convinced that:

do one of those big gestures that romantic people always seem to pull off. Like a hot air balloon ride and then going to a pre-booked hotel get a bit tipsy with the poison of your choice. Maybe you and your wife are too stubborn and if you do a big grand gesture the stalemate will be broken?

a grand gesture, and utilizing alcohol will break down the walls of an unhealthy, prolonged stalemate, well, power on. I remain skeptical, and disagree with your idea that some grand romantic "window dressing" gesture, which will obviously come across as forced and "agenda laden", will somehow serve to help this BW, WH, and their marriage, begin to heal.

And I did punctuate my thoughts with this:

I may be way off base. I am no counselor. YMMV. And most definitely IMHO.

These are just my impressions from reading this thread, and they may or may not be applicable, right, or helpful, but I did want to share them as they are my gut impressions. I am not blaming her for your affair, or excusing you for initially ripping your marital plant out of the ground, roots and all.

If healing our individual and marital woes were as easy as buying chocolates, flowers, balloon rides and champagne, then we wouldn't need this forum.

Slowuptake: I hope you and your wife will get the help you need. It would appear you both have some very serious decisions to make with regard to your recovery and marriage, and where it is heading.

JD

Well I think you misinterpreted what I wrote then.

The point is you need to start from somewhere. There is an obvious stalemate and a gesture can start the ball rolling for emotional intimacy and deeper discussions.

grand romantic "window dressing" gesture, which will obviously come across as forced and "agenda laden", will somehow serve to help this BW, WH, and their marriage, begin to heal.

I don't think anywhere I said, oh just do this that will fix it

I'm truly not that stupid. And it has been recommended by pysciologists to actually start off with a gesture. A little effort can go a long way

My original thoughts have not changed, you painted his betrayed wife as very cunning and manipulative. Where there is really no indication that she thinks the following

4) and she has allowed a sense of righteous indignation to excuse being stuck and basically wanting to watch the marriage die. You stand by your "marital plant" with a watering can that is at least partially filled by your efforts to change and be safe for her. And she won't allow you to pour the water on. But she does expect you to keep going out to the well and bringing more buckets of water in to pile on the floor next to the dying, parched plant. Her "marital martyrdom" means the marriage she feels you've killed will be all your fault when it does fail/die.

5) no sex, in her mind, accomplishes two things. Withholds/punishes you for the very act you engaged in to kill the marriage. And dares/ challenges you to NOT go out and do it again which would, again, justify her detachment from you and the marriage.

(how do you know what's going on in her mind?)

People react differently to trauma because we are all different.

But I understand the saying here is "take what you need and leave the rest" I am sure the original poster can ascertain what he finds helpful for himself.

[This message edited by mrmarx at 10:07 AM, September 1st (Sunday)]