SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Welcome to the NPD Survivors Club-

We call ourselves The Tribe.

Learning about narcs will cause light bulbs to go off for years as more and more research is available. I still find new information available almost everyday. The narc has no boundaries so they can go very low on order to win at all costs-people are not treated any differently then furniture. Manipulation is a minor league game plan for them. Anything that you value can and will be used against you to obtain obedience and narcissistic supply.

Be prepared for a very extreme roller coaster ride.

Hugs,

K

I couldn't understand how my husband of 10 years turned into an unrecognizable beast overnight. I had people suggest to me it was a brain tumor, a psychotic break, extreme reactions to guilt etc. Until I began reading about NPD I held on to the hope that as quickly as this evil thing appeared, it could turn back into the man I thought I married. But now I know that this thing is the man I married. This is really him underneath the mask he wears. Underneath the mask of a very needy "good guy" is this hideous thing with no empathy. I still struggle with it all and I'm sure I will for a long time. I get that he hates himself and I understand why he hides himself (the asshole underneath is not praiseworthy in the slightest) but I still struggle with understanding why he won't acknowledge and CHANGE himself. I think that is the most perplexing thing to me. It takes SOOOO much effort to maintain an image so opposite of what you are so wouldn't it be a million times easier to just BECOME that image to let that act go?

Welcome to my life.

Erzulie,

My exWH was also diagnosed NPD. And, he was also SA. I see sooooo many similarities to your H with lack of remorse, inability to form truly intimate relationships, attempts at manipulation by a master, etc., etc., etc.

Underneath it all, I KNEW my exH would NEVER do the hard work to even get in recovery from his SA. After all, the normal rules of society don't apply to the superior NPD. He went to a counselor for 2 sessions. He actually thought the "drive to succeed, even at the expense of others" was a GOOD trait.

Counselors and psychiatrists will often say that the NPD truly can't be helped because they are always seeking to prove their superiority even in therapy. They try to out-wit and out-think the therapist. Everything is a game to them; one that must be won at all costs so their superiority remains intact.

You are well-rid of him with this realization. A life with him will only bring further heartbreak. And yes, this issue with the dogs is just another effort to manipulate you and WIN.

Huge Hugs....

House full of love,

Your story is so similar. I really like your insight when you said "

But now I know that this thing is the man I married. This is really him underneath the mask he wears. Underneath the mask of a very needy "good guy" is this hideous thing with no empathy. I still struggle with it all and I'm sure I will for a long time. I get that he hates himself and I understand why he hides himself (the asshole underneath is not praiseworthy in the slightest) but I still struggle with understanding"

This is where I am at now. I can't communicate- which we do only about the kids- with someone who is so insane and so delusional. He is so far gone, still thinking it is not what HE did- but my reaction to what HE did that is the problem....

SIGH....

House full of love,

Your story is so similar. I really like your insight when you said "

But now I know that this thing is the man I married. This is really him underneath the mask he wears. Underneath the mask of a very needy "good guy" is this hideous thing with no empathy. I still struggle with it all and I'm sure I will for a long time. I get that he hates himself and I understand why he hides himself (the asshole underneath is not praiseworthy in the slightest) but I still struggle with understanding"

This is where I am at now. I can't communicate- which we do only about the kids- with someone who is so insane and so delusional. He is so far gone, still thinking it is not what HE did- but my reaction to what HE did that is the problem....

SIGH....

Yep, that sounds exactly like The Princess. Sadly, I was only too happy to help with this part: "Expecting constant praise and admiration".

She didn't need to expect it because my sorry ass was only too willing to provide it - and probably would have continued to if I hadn't discovered what a liar and cheater she is.

^^^

You're describing my situation and marriage to a tee...Who knew love and praise were so destructive?

He is so far gone, still thinking it is not what HE did- but my reaction to what HE did that is the problem....

I could write (actually I probably have written) the exact same thing. I finally stopped trying. I just wrote a post showing how completely delusional my ex is even now, months later and on the day we stand stand in front of a judge. He still blames me and has no apologies.

Great great great topic guys! The posts and information on this subject is exactly why I'm not saving my marriage and just letting go. I WANT to stay married to the REAL her, but this messed up personality/behavior/character can only be fixed by the one who carries it. If she REALLY wanted my help with FULL remorse, of course I'd give it a shot. But right now, that's not her. Fixing or saving a marriage when one or both parties just need to work on things and forgive, etc etc....ok, fine. But with a PD...now that's a whole different ball-game. I have accepted the fact that she needs to hit a point in her life where SHE needs to come to terms with this "problem". Whether it takes months, years, or decades, I'm sure at some point, she'll come full circle. well, maybe. All I know is I was great to her in marriage/friendship/love and now the blinders are slowly coming off of me and understanding her PDs, low esteem, etc. It was NOTHING I alone could "fix" . This brings me some peace when letting go. It was that damn vow of "better or worse, sickness and health" that made me feel like I had to try anything and hang on over the years. But, in reality, letter her go IS helping her! No more Jackfish being 10 feet away to solve everything, enable her, no more blame, or walking on eggshells. That person 10 feet away everyday is the enemy you know! ;)

Letting go of a a person with PD IS a type of therapy for them, I guess.

As I've said in other posts, I do still and always will love, unconditionally, the "buried deep inside" person I knew from time to time. But this "thing" that has possessed her now, the two of them need to do battle.

Interesting story (PD related). Recently, my FIL told me his ex (my deceased MIL) did similar stuff (around 40ish) and left him (adultery too) and lived with OM for several years. I knew OM when he was with my MIL, and after awhile, he had enuf of MIL and they split. MIL was an alc-y and eventually died (alone) from it, but she too was narcissistic and had PD's...BigTime!. The interesting thing, and the point of this paragraph is, the FIL told me that after MIL and OM split, FIL and MIL met and spent some casual time together, roughly 10 years after their split (I did not know this, lol). She told him that "leaving him was a mistake", and she apologized for it! FIL told me he/she wanted to get back together cuz they still loved each other, but she was also a bad alcoholic and FIL instinctively knew better. Not just the alcohol, but try trusting a messed up late 40s alc-y! Amazing that the "buried deep inside" person (sober) in the MIL told her Ex this.

Sadly, it's deja-vu here for wife and I, but at least she's not an alcoholic. Early life esteem and events DO have an affect on adults too folks.

Have to Edit to add this: Once the Fantasy of her and Loser wears off, oh to be a fly on the wall when he gets all of her baggage, etc. It may take awhile, but I know she'll display it all at her finest. Maybe he'll be a sucker like me! But gees, can she continue to pull this crap till she's in her Golden Years???

[This message edited by jackfish at 1:34 PM, September 19th (Thursday)]

Reality to a narc is whatever supports their warped view of themselves. Anything that contradicts that is ignored or invalidated by any means necessary.

This is pretty much it in a nutshell. The instant I was no longer on board with his imaginary reality, (as I started to see the cracks in it), I was devalued, dehumanized, replaced, and then discarded without so much as a backward glance.

NPD's have no real soul, instead they are centered around a black hole of insecure neediness that will never, ever be filled.

He is so far gone, still thinking it is not what HE did- but my reaction to what HE did that is the problem....

This comment really struck me.

In therapy, he used his "words" ... talked about how it was his fault, how I was blameless, etc., etc. All sounds good and remorseful, right?

Then, I asked a question. Given that he even mentioned in his emails to his married affair partners, that his "perfect match" was "someone who had as much to lose as he did" ... I assumed he did understand the risks he was taking. So, I asked him ... "what did you expect I would do, if I found out?"

I didn't really get a clear, lucid answer, but it was absolutely apparent to me that my reaction was a surprise to him. It really befuddles me. Did he think I would just invite him home, we could "talk it out", all would be okay, I would "help him with his issues?"

HE FUCKING DESTROYED ME. But seems totally ignorant of the fact that I am affected in the slightest. And now, it is going to become more and more my fault, I guess, because I am standing my ground and not letting him near me or the dogs, and not contacting him at all.

Mind boggling.

I guess if I just swept it under the rug, all would be fine, right?

So, I asked him ... "what did you expect I would do, if I found out?"

I asked my exWH a similar question in the "how could you" kind of vein. His response was:

"I had hoped you would never have to know."

WTF? Like not knowing makes it OK?? In NPD land, where normal rules don't apply to them, I guess that kind of logic works. In the real world of morals, values, and commitment to marriage? Well, not so much. That's why I proceeded full-speed ahead to D and never, ever, even once considered R.

So, I asked him ... "what did you expect I would do, if I found out?"

I asked my exWH a similar question in the "how could you" kind of vein. His response was:

"I had hoped you would never have to know."

Same here. I asked him how long he was planning to let the A go on, had I not found the proof I did and confronted him with it. His response was that he was planning to let our fights escalate (which they definitely WERE, since I knew I was being lied to but didn't then know why), until *I* said enough was enough and demanded a divorce. Then he would leave, get with her, and I would supposedly never know that he'd been cheating for nearly a year.

Seriously. This was his plan. He'd already emotionally left, was "in love" with her, sleeping with BOTH of us, and treating me worse and worse. Pushing the boundaries daily of not answering the phone, not coming home until late, telling more blatant lies, picking fights, being and absolutely cruel ass to me... and just waiting (probably very impatiently) for me to get sick of it and throw in the towel. I think he was shocked and annoyed at how long I hung in there, crying, pleading, going to MC (alone), stupidly still trying to save a marriage that actually no longer existed.

This is what disgusts me most about him: the fact that he did everything he did, and was too much of a COWARD to end it himself.

"I had hoped you would never have to know."

While these weren't the words he used, this was definitely the look on his face.

Which is ironic, given that he articulated to these women how much he had to lose. I wonder if he even believed that himself.

I still have nightmares about one of those women's jealous husbands coming to my house with a gun. Not only did he risk me catching an STD, he risked me AND my dogs with his selfish idiocy and broken ego.

I will forgive many things in this life, but never that.

So very much to say on this topic. This is Perv/Happy Pants to a T. Once I learned some of this, I can get around him better, which is to say, with less emotional trouble for myself during interactions.

The first thing that struck me on this thread is that yes, there are causes for NPD and reasons why one person has it and another doesn't. My siblings have it and I don't, for instance. One parent has it but one doesn't. We grew up with an NPD parent and a totalitarian controlling parent who both told each other, "GFY: Go Fix Yourself and then come back!"

But since each decided the other was wrong, 30 years went by and nothing got fixed-then kids came and made it worse. Anyway...

Two years of counseling and three different ones have told me that narcissism stems from parenting and the culture in a child's house as they are growing up. This matches Perv too, because things were simply handed to him and praise was given for doing not much of anything.

In my growing up house, praise was hard won and it was damn hard to earn any praise or anything I wanted. To this day with one parent, it is that way. And so I turned out to be an adult with many boundaries who expects people to show me the same, where Perv/HP has basically zero boundaries and people he "cares for" he thinks should be able to do whatever the hell they want and clean up the mess later-like DD and probably OW.

This is one reason why it is so "easy" to wound their ego, because they can't understand why the universe isn't like their parents were and that's what they expect...unconditional praise, even when in the wrong.

There's much more to say for me on this subject, but I will leave it at that. He's also passive aggressive but I didn't know this until the last year or so and now that I know my way around it, he's actually said, "You've changed since I left!"...yea...I got smarter!

One way that I deal with him that I will add that's very helpful and makes him feel "in charge", is when we need something from him that we can't get anywhere else on the planet, I spend time wording my correspondence so it's not needy.

Then, I give several things instead of just one and leave it kind of multiple choice, or I call open ended so he can think it's him that decided something, when it was me. It's exhausting but has really helped make interactions better and quicker.

The lying I can't get past and some other things, so I just have less and less to do with him and always give my side to other people. They are finding that my replies are the more consistent and he's hurting more of his relationships this way, but that's his choice.

I wish you all well.

Today I went to the therapist that has seen us both, but got a private session. Wow. I didn't think she would give me as much as she did, but she layed it all out. It is both worse and better than I could have hoped.

She saw many things going on with him; including Aspergers, arrested development, and Addiction/addictive personality, self sabotage.

She saw someone with major demons and a very dark side, someone who feel into the rabbit hole and couldn't get out, some one addicted to the feeling of getting away with this secret life, the sex, and felt there is probably much more to his story I don't know. She said he is in a very dark place and you don't want to be there with him. Be thankful this happened and you can break free of it. Wow.

She also told me, along with about a million other people here on SI, that he is completely incapable of understanding the devasation to our family, how bad the betrayal is, the catasptrophe of it all. He can not do it. His aspergers brain does not work that way. I have to stop needing answers, because I will never get any from him.

He is a 13year old boy emotionally,and when a boy does something he is ashamed of and knows is wrong, he says I am sorry and then it is supposed to just be all better. For him, apparently it is that simple. He has even said " I have said I am sorry, what else can I do."

So, the reality is that he was never the man I thought he was. He was hoping he could be that man, pretending to be that man, but he was like a time bomb and self imploded. He had all this darkness and self loathing and unworthiness. He couldn't pretend anymore so he did something so terrible that everyone would have to see the broken down mess that he is,now out in the open.

I still hate him today for playing with our lives like this. He is hanging on to the one good thing he doesn't hate about himself, and that is being a good father. Trying to overcome his own childhood wounds from when his dad left. Maybe someday I will have some compassion for this loser, but I am so angry that he dragged me and my kids into his darkness like this.

Well, this hits home with me. You know my story well. There is nothing you can do, but get the hell away. You are destroyed now, but I promise one day you will be so thankful you got away when you did, and with your sanity - or what's left of it.

I'm still to blame seven years later, and FT now uses our son to get to me. Me outing him to his new wife is what stopped it - for now.

I know you need to analyze and try to understand, but if he is truly NPD, you never will - he will run you around the mulberry bush until you stop playing, and walk away.

Such an interesting thread. Like everyone else, everything you all are saying reflects my experience with my NPD STBXWW so identically.

Here is only one small example:

While I was in the throes of my own fog, allowing her to convince me that I was to blame for everything, it occurred to me to ask her a simple question:

"What are you responsible for?"

I will never forget her response:

There was none. She literally just stared at me blankly, puzzled and befuddled. She clearly was incapable of responding to this in any way. I could see that the gears were just not grinding in the same way that normal people's minds would if they were asked such a basic question--particularly in such a dramatic context.

It was like asking a very young child the same question--whose brain is just so immature, simply incapable of understanding the nuances of cause and effect and personal responsibility.