SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Thanks for reading and commenting, you guys. I appreciate all the thoughts and feedback :)

and this

It costs them their dreams because this road isn’t one they’d ever planned on traveling.

Ugg...heart-wrenching...couldn't have said it better...

Wow, what a discussion. Are we confusing forgiveness with staying maybe?

I see this different, though I respect the other points of view. I could stay and forgive or walk and forgive. In the end I need to forgive regardless, because not forgiving (as I understand it) would require too much energy in continuing to hold onto or resent what happened to me. I think that not forgiving, in the sense that I define it, would interfere with my ability to love the way I want and deserve to love, whether in this relationship or in another.

Forgiveness to me doesn't mean that I roll over and stay. It doesn't mean that she is absolved from work toward maintaining the level of trust she's working to build, nor the work required to ensure it never happens again if I choose to stay. It means that I have come to a place of peace with the fact that it happened, however I find that peace.

Forgetting (such a horrible word in the scheme of forgiveness) is totally different. What happened provided information about how I choose to move forward, and that lesson isn't forgotten. We aren't wired to "forget." All of our experiences shape who we are, and they can't do that if we are intended to forget. Whether I stay in this relationship or move to another, that information guides my behavior toward having different experiences than if it had never happened. If I don't do my own work to get through this as a better person with good lessons learned and instead choose to harbor resentment and anger for what happened to me, the behaviors associated with it will emerge in other relationships just as it would in this one. For me, the anger and resentment are linked to my ability to forgive.

Of course, the glaring difference is that in THIS relationship I'm with THE person that betrayed me so horribly. In order to R I have to approach the relationship from a standpoint of rebuilding from the beginning in a lot of ways, which requires work and a demonstration of changes in behavior from my WS that I wouldn't immediately expect from a new relationship. But I KNOW the goodness my WS is capable of by both our history and the actions she has taken since we decided to R. I love so many things about her that I couldn't imagine finding the same mix of characteristics in another person that would fit me so well.

I agree that there is a cost to forgiveness. Though this cost seems to rely on the perceptions of the BS. We can see this as an affront to our choice. I see it that way, too. I would never have chosen her if I had known she was capable of this in the beginning. We can also choose to stick to the way we viewed infidelity before we experienced it first-hand. I don't choose that. My disdain for this behavior goes back to childhood (and my parents have been faithful and are still together). Looking back I had a very one-dimensional view of it. I am now living in the context of it. I am seeing the issues from life experience that lead to the delusional thoughts and ego-stroking behaviors that result in infidelity. Because of what I know and the understanding I have gained about my personal situation, I choose to view staying as a personal emotional strength I never thought I would have, rather than as succumbing to a situation in which I can't win.

Because I don't choose to view infidelity as I did before I experienced the destruction of it, I can't hold myself to the same ideals I had before. I don't see myself as sacrificing my integrity or my goals in life by staying. I see forgiveness as separate from staying anyway. I have to forgive to move on either way. I don't have to stay. But life is about experiencing change, taking the information from it and incorporating that information into the knowledge already gained. I had no actual knowledge of infidelity before this, so to incorporate it into my perception of what it might be like is counterproductive. I have to incorporate it into the knowledge I have, which includes my love of my partner, what I truly know about her, what I know about myself, what I know about others (yay, SI!), what I know about how she is proving her changes, and what I know about our relationship. The choice to stay incorporates all of that on top of my estimation about what is possible for me, her and the relationship moving forward. I move forward with forgiveness in the relationship with the promise of a better one. In our case, the devastation of the infidelity highlighted some serious barriers to expressing the real love we have and feel/felt for each other. A lot of the work is on her for resolving the issues that led to her brokenness, but it also involves work on how we communicate in our relationship together. With this new vulnerability and openness we are experiencing, why would I leave? How could I not eventually forgive? I will not ever concede that THIS had to happen for us to get there, but it has happened. It is happening. I had to lay all the known information on the table and make some very hard decisions. They aren't decisions I expected to ever make, especially in my relationship with her, yet here they are.

Now that I have first-hand knowledge, would I forgive if it happened again? Yes, I would. It would take a lot of time, but I would forgive. However, I wouldn't stay.

My pride and dignity demand i walk. My heart and commitment to my family demand i stay. There is no winning.

I just realized tonight I would be more eager to R if I moved out of state. I think that could mean I might have excessive pride. When I look at it this way I wonder if I do maybe need to swallow my pride and keep my family together. This quote above seems to describe A LOT of us here in limbo land.

Peoplepleaser, your post is beautiful to me. I've re read it twice. There is so much there I needed to hear today. Thank you so much for that, sincerely.

Icecold - great post, thanks for sharing

Afrayedknot - great point, this is a Catch 22, I don't want to hold the "debt" over my WW's head. I love her, I love our family and I am hopeful that we can reconcile. But I am deeply wounded by what she did, and I NEED her to do the work to figure out how we got here.

An understanding of the high cost of forgiveness seems to go missing when an offense is committed. Far too often I see an entitlement mentality when it comes to receiving forgiveness from our mate or forgiveness from God.

My WW expressed the entitlement mentality to me explicitly. She actually told me, "You say you've forgiven me, but you don't act like you've forgiven me. I see the way you look sometimes." As if I can't feel sad anymore only a year after it all hit the fan! She even suggested I listen to a certain sermon on forgiveness so that I understand it better.

This coming from the woman who took 6 months after dday to even start searching for a new job (the OP was her boss, still in contact every day), and 9 months to even start the purge process of getting rid of pics, emails, etc. from and of him & her. I'm reaching the end of my rope. She expects me to pay the high price of forgiveness without her doing something even 1% of the cost in return. I asked her to read a Gary Smalley book (companion to the one for guys regarding how to love their wives). She got two chapters into it and quit, telling me that it didn't all fit her. I read the men's version about 3 times, trying to figure out how to make her feel loved... :( She moved on to some boring non-fiction about the city of Detroit, and felt comfortable enough to share freely with me about the "new" book she was reading. I am so sad right now, it's hard to believe I can function. Articles like this, while depressing for me right now, help me to see just how unbalanced my situation really is, and that I must act in some way or I will simply disintegrate.

sorry t/j.. but @plewpiter

I am so sad right now, it's hard to believe I can function. Articles like this, while depressing for me right now, help me to see just how unbalanced my situation really is, and that I must act in some way or I will simply disintegrate.

just read your story. Your ww is still in the fog, head stuck up her behind, or something. She needs a serious dose of the 180. Sending you strength.

Now that I have first-hand knowledge, would I forgive if it happened again? Yes, I would. It would take a lot of time, but I would forgive. However, I wouldn't stay.

peoplepleaser-your post IS great. But some of us are here. I do have that knowledge -as a former WW but as a BS because I caught him and then he did it again. so some of us are still staying. And you can imagine the strikes to our psyche because of it,knowing we have to forgive and also stay without resentment. Pretty damn tall order and I'm not sure I can do it. Thank you for your post.

[This message edited by rachelc at 6:00 AM, April 22nd (Tuesday)]

I sent the original posts article to my H a while ago. Such a great piece!

After reading the book "How Can I Forgive You", I understand that ACCEPTANCE is what we do to let go of our pain. Forgiveness is an EXCHANGE between the betrayed and the betrayer. Forgiveness is EARNED not just unilaterally given.

I have forgiven my H in that I do not want to punish him or have him "make it up" to me. It does NOT release him from the work of reconciliation, nor does it mean I can no longer reach out to him when I am in pain or even anger.

Great thread!

Now that I have first-hand knowledge, would I forgive if it happened again? Yes, I would. It would take a lot of time, but I would forgive. However, I wouldn't stay.

^^ This is exactly what I know. This firm understanding of what will happen if the offense is repeated is neccesary for me. Maybe some people don't need this, but I do know it for sure. It would be so sad, but I know now that I would be alright, and my children would be alright. That's taken a long time for me to believe, and what PP said above has been essential for my recovery.

Thank you for the posts and the responses. It is good to hear everyone's perspective and to know that I'm not struggling alone.

Had a mini breakdown yesterday about this exact issue--the lose-lose situation and how despite all the excuses and reasons I come up with for why the A happened, it just boils down to pure selfishness on the part of my H. He was unhappy, but instead of saying he wanted out or really wanted to fix things, he went behind my back and had a lurve affair with someone who played me like a fiddle.

When I'm feeling stronger I can see that there is a positive and that's my OWN personal growth. And maybe my H's, but that's up to him. When I'm feeling lost, I feel exhausted from and resentful of the mental gymnastics involved with making this palatable enough for me to try to work it out.

Like you, ICECOLD, I don't believe that forgiveness is necessary for R. To me, true forgiveness would be given with the expectation of nothing in return. OTOH, true remorse would require sincere restitution. Too many of us here at SI don't get full remorse or full forgiveness, but attempts at both can often hold a marriage together.

I have reached acceptance but not forgiveness because my H has not earned it. He tried, or thinks he tried anyway, and consequently I try not to resent, but I fail. So our R does not have a fairy tale ending but we manage to continue to love each other despite this.

To be quite honest, though my H fell way short in doing the work I felt was necessary to earn forgiveness, I'm not altogether sure he could have ever done enough.

So our R does not have a fairy tale ending but we manage to continue to love each other despite this.

Exactly! This perfectly sums it up for me!

Great post! It really summarizes what I've been feeling lately, and struggled to verbalize in IC. I sent a copy to my WH, and we read over it together. I also sent a coup to my IC.

The only thing I would add is that I've also paid a high price through the example I've set for my children. I'm very worried they'll grow up and marry a cheater, thinking its normal to take it because Mom did. Setting a strong example for my girls is very important to me, and this one really hurts. It's a very high price to pay.

I'm just wondering- is loving someone with naked vulnerability, isn't that a high price to pay in itself, even without "affair" thrown in there?

I'm just wondering- is loving someone with naked vulnerability, isn't that a high price to pay in itself, even without "affair" thrown in there?

I don't know that this can take place without a whole lot of trust in the relationship.

Great thread everyone!

Some random thoughts...

I don't want my W to be forever showing she loves me because I offered R. I want her to be forever showing she loves me because she loves me and wants to express it. I think that's what I'm getting - but AFK's post will make me ask her explicitly.

I don't think R is lose-lose. After D-Day, the A is part of reality, and one's response defines winning and losing. I no longer have a totally unsullied M, but I'm alive, in love with and loved by the person I want, and I have fewer illusions than I used to. I'm doing my part in life, and doing it the best way I can. I'm living. That's a pretty good response to the trauma of being betrayed.

I've met some SIers who have D'ed or are in the D process. They've lost love and M and property, but I can't help thinking of them as winners - under terrible stress, they found their strengths, honor, integrity, etc., and they're rebuilding their lives. That, too, is a pretty good response to being betrayed.

I've met some fWSes who are now living lives of integrity. That, too, is a pretty good response.

I'm not sure winning/losing even belong in this line of thought.

I think this is a great article to consider and discuss. As I read it, I felt thoughts and feelings coming up. It's not something that should be skimmed an put away - every rereading, I think, will bring new insights.

It's a candidate for the Healing Library, IMO.

Thank you for this thread. It has giving me so much to think about.