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I wonder, donna, (and I am just thinking out loud) if your WH was projecting what he would do when he asked you to be up front with him about your feelings and not to have an affair. I have written before that, IMO, someone inclined to be dishonest thinks everyone is. Does someone inclined to commit adultery think everyone is so inclined?

I have seen a few examples of people I worked with who were committing adultery and I was surprized when I found out. Looking back I can say "oh, that was what that was about". I phoned a person my WW had hired, mentored, who respected her. They worked on projects together and in close quarters with her AP. She committed adultery for 4 years only through work channels. I wanted to see if he could provide any insight. He was flabbergasted. He didn't see it and I believe him. He said that is so out of character for her. He had an entirely different perspective on her and was committed to his family. He wasn't looking for the signs - maybe didn't even know what to look for.

So I wonder if your WH was projecting on you because he understood under those circumstances he would do what he asked you not to.

My opinion, ultimately the WS needs to feel justified.

A foundation is set when the WS does not place enough value on love, honor, respect, trust, family, and legacy to generate enough cognitive dissonance to prevent having an affair. Pressure in the marriage or life in general will tip the scales.

As the affair progresses, the WS needs to "generate" more justification by waging a silent secret unfair war on the BS, -not just by using anger, causing riot, and fighting, but also by being nicer, giving more sex, being nicer in public view, and placing more value on their actions to further cut down the BS and justify the affair.

It's all about cognitive dissonance, how much is generated within the WS by their affair actions, and how hard they must work to offset it.

Psychmom

Your post strikes such a chord with me. If you substitute fWW and 5+ year A it would be as I am looking in a mirror.

For what it is worth here are my suggestions:

We all try to "understand" what may not be completely understandable. I believe this is partly done as a protection mechanism against reoccourance. If you understand the why, then you can avoid pain again in the future. I believe there is also a need to know the reason is not truly about us as well (as that is what the WS typically blames initially).

However, what I have come to terms with is that I will NEVER be able to fully and truly understand the why (and I will have to be OK with that).

You will truly never understand because you are likely not a selfish person that lacks empathy and you do not possess boaederline narrisistic tendencies (or sociopathic tendencies) and a sense of entitlement or FOO issues that create brokeness in oneself. I am not sure we can fully understand what we have not had personal

experice with.

This is like me trying to understand why someone becomes a rapist or a sereal killer (I can not comprehend what goes through their mind either).

What is truly more important is for the WS to get help and understand why they did it themselves (to avoid the situations and tendencies in the future).

If the WS is getring the IC they need and dooing the right things to make you feel safe...eventually you will have to let go of the need to understand why and figure out how to forgive them (and more importantly forgive yourself) to progress forward. I am not saying we need to rug-sweep, just to realize we may never fully understand.

I think we also want to fully understand sometimes to "pain shop". If we have a need to fully understand the whys and the whys can not be understood as hen we do not have to progress forward. We get stuck in a loop trying to rationalize the irrational. This again protects us from the pain of it happening again. If we do not move forward then we do not forgive and if we don't forgive then don't get into a vulnerable position to be devastated again.

CookieMom really is on to something. I have a masters in Psychology and could not understand just how my husband could do what he did. What allowed him to do it?? I spent SOOOOO much time in therapy tying to understand it, and my own counselor said that I was working cognitively so that I could feel like I was gaining some sense of control. That if I could understand it, I would be able to keep it from happening again once we chartered the correct course for healing and moving forward. She also believed that by my focussing there, I was not getting in touch with my feelings. While on my quest to understand it, I didn't have to feel the anxiety of how vulnerable I was or the hurt that did not go away as time went on...

My own husband went back to the same easy ex who never satisfied him, in fact, he had always quickly reached the conclusion that being with her was not making him feel better than he felt being alone and he would never stay with her for a long period of time. So WHAT was he thinking going back to that? Well, his "Whys" were that he was not feeling good about himself, something he likely had before he ever got involved with me, but was reinforced by our relationship that had gotten difficult when I wanted more connection and he fought it by withdrawing. We were struggling, but he was closer to me than anyone else in his life, and that was probably not a happy realization. That EVEN with me, he could not feel good about himself. So.... When she contacted him again, the process began. Our dynamic was magnified and exaggerated in his mind. The already disconnected frenetic life we were leading became even more disconnected and his investment lessened and he engaged in more and more solitary activities. It became a self-fulfilling profecy because as he moved farther away, I became even more frustrated and began to distance myself or choose not to care so much in order to protect myself from the hurt of his withdrawing. This provided the perfect justification for him to move forward with a relationship with a woman who would have sold her soul to just be in his presence. She gave him all of the artificial over the top attention that was suppose to make him feel better. THAT is how my husband was able to enter into an affair. It was a process that he unconsciously engaged in so that he could justify actions that was completely contrary to the ethics and character that he liked to identify with as a human being.

So really, when it comes down to it, he WANTED to do it. The whole process that he created before the affair went PA was the backdrop for his justification that what we had was so bad, he deserved to be happy, he was desperate for something to make him feel good, probably even MORE so once he had helped our relationship deteriorated further by viewing everything in such a negative light rather than looking at the good. Her contact was the catalyst for that...Was she so amazing that it forced him to give up such an amazing family and risk my leaving? No. He was so poorly prepared for how to deal with the difficult parts of life, the bumps and dips in the road that instead of finding a healthy way to work through those things, he lived with unhappiness, internalized it rather than resolved it and when the opportunity for a quick fix came by, he jumped, confirming once again that there is NO quick fix for happiness. We ALL must do the work......

[This message edited by Neverwudaguessed at 9:31 AM, December 31st (Thursday)]

Threads like these are the ones that keep me so interested in SI. I've gained more insight into myself from people you like, psychmom, and so many others, that if often seems difficult to absorb sooo much wisdom.

I'm no psychologist, but I'm learning. One of the things I've learned is that most, if not all, negative emotions can be traced back to one primary emotion: fear.

The quote from Socrates I use in my signature line it's just a cute phrase to me. I've heard--believe it or not by joining my wife at her UU Church--that the greatest source of wisdom in life comes from introspection. Examining our own lives, being introspective, is how we figure out what we need/want in this life time to make us happy.

I think, honestly, that most people truly fear to examine their own lives, be introspective, define what we really want and make that happen for ourselves. We see philosophy as esoteric, believe we're just not smart enough, or rational enough, or even good enough, have sufficient self-worth, to truly define the meaning of our lives for ourselves.

Mr. Psych didn't do that, did he? Rather than examine his own life and define, for himself, what he wants/needs to be happy and take the appropriate steps to make that happen--such as being open and honest with you and/or insisting that you and he attend MC--he chose to deceive himself, lie to himself and then, of course, betray himself.

Fear. When we refuse to face our fears, to understand ourselves, to be honest with ourselves, we give in to fear and become cowards. Few things in this world will cause as much anger as being angry with ourselves.

My wife cheated because she would rather betray herself than face her fears and be honest with herself; to examine her own life. Why now does she have the courage to deep dig and examine her own life with greater honesty? Because if she doesn't, I'm going to leave her and it's rather clear that she doesn't want me to do that. This much I understand. I can accept it. And I can also accept that I will never understand how she could have ever done something so self-destructive.

The unexamined life is not worth living. Mr. Psych lived a very unexamined life and that life wasn't worth living. It wasn't worth it.

"What I do know is this: anyone who fights for the future, lives in it today." - Ayn Rand.

Mr. Psych & Mrs. Hinged are both trying very hard to fight for the future and they both want to live in that future today. So do I. How about you, psychmom?

[This message edited by Unhinged at 10:08 AM, December 31st (Thursday)]

I look at it in two ways. On one level, as an addiction. Your spouse, while momentarily emotionally vulnerable, takes a drug or gets totally out of control drunk and is a different person while under the influence. They are invincible, they are clever, witty, charming, they can drive better, fight harder, be sexier, the can make people laugh and they have a wonderful time. The next morning is the come down or hangover. My God, what have I done!! Never again!! Until the next time. They got away with it, no on seemed to notice, no one made any adverse comment on their behaviour, no one seemed to be aware…… so they do it again, even though they know they will not have that same thrill as the first time or the second or even the third. It becomes an illicit habit they learn to hide. They still enjoy what they are doing while they are doing it, even though they know it’s wrong and that it will come out in the end….. but they don’t like to think about that. In the same way as a drug addict or an alcoholic, they KNOW they are functioning in an apparently normal way but what they are doing is not acceptable. And they know that when they shit hits the fan they could lose everything. Their job, spouse, family, friends, home – the lot. But they can’t quit until they are found out. They are trapped and can’t or don’t want to see a way out of the dilemma they are in. They are sabotaging the very thing they value most for something of little or no value or benefit (in the end). They can’t stop without telling you and they won’t do that for fear of losing you. And so they wait until you find the syringe or the stack of empty whisky bottles (text/car on the drive/phone call from the other BS). That one, I can kind of understand as an analogy.

Two. They do it because they want to and they can. Period. Opportunity and inclination. Selfishness on a plate.

It’s difficult to understand the incomprehensible when you are looking at your spouse. Other couples, yes. But YOUR spouse?? YOUR marriage?? Na-hah. That’s the impossible one to wrap your head around.

[This message edited by UKgirl at 12:04 PM, December 31st (Thursday)]

Just to add:

I think we try to find an analogy or some kind of emotional weakness or put it down to depression, low self esteem, poor communication within the marriage, problems with children or health, because we want to find something as a reason. When sometimes there isn’t one. Sometimes there is, but sometimes there just isn’t.

My fWH did it because he wanted to find out if he should have married his ex and so he had an affair. He fell in love all over again and was going to leave until the day actually arrived and he realised that maybe he didn’t want to lose what he had here for something that might not work out when it was all out in the open and no longer had all the intensity and thrill of a clandestine affair. If I had thrown him out, I strongly believe he would be married to her now – he liked and loved her enough for that and he is not one to survive well alone. But that’s just my situation.

I really can't add much but a simple THANK YOU for all the wisdom written here!

I too have read about the chemical changes in the brain stuff...my H is in medicine and he too " understood" the science of this...but that is still no excuse....it is to easy IMO....

our daughter got involved with a guy who ended up being stalkerish...she went to therapy and once asked me " Is dad emotionally unavailable?" At the time I thought what kind of question is that? That was at least 10 years ago....but my guess is yes he most likely was....(psychmom is that a real term or psychobabble? )

bottom line they did it because they could...they justified every step they took and landed in the arms of another person....

Steadychevy,

Maybe he was projecting. But it took 40 years for it to happen. Of course the availability of "meeting" someone was made much easier over the last few years with FB. I too often wonder now if the opportunity arose earlier in our M what would have happened. My H has always had esteem issues and battled with depression. I have always been strong and confident. I made friends easily, he not so much. The anomininity of the Internet was less difficult for him so he went looking for a "friend". He tells me he had hundreds of women "friends" but this one kept up a dialog and was relatively close by (but far enough as to not be seen together) it was a perfect storm for him at the time she asked that they actually meet up. He was depressed, I was busy with work and a new grandchild, he was feeling neglected. And as so many have written on this thread, he felt entitled to make himself happy rather than dealing with his issues.

Whatever the why, I will NEVER understand it and have given up trying. I know I need to move on. Just know he was selfish but is changed. I will never be blindly trusting again and he knows it. He knows his behavior was totally unacceptable and also very out of character for him. No IC for him but a lot of self reflection over the man he was over those three years

Another thing I can't understand - why do they not use protection??????

High school kids know to use a condom, why is it an adult can't figure it out?

Don't know, trustedg. I've asked WW and she said she didn't think she needed it. She knew they were going to consumate after. She took him to one of our pastures to do so. It was planned.

His wife had left him because he had committed adultery with another woman so he was a known philanderer but he was "fixed" and so was she so she didn't think she needed protection. What about herpes, HPV (oral), other? She thought he was exclusive to her for 3 years of LTA? Never any protection.

A requirement I had was for her to get tested and she did and was clean. We had unprotected sex and oral for 10 years from start of PA to DDay. I could have been gifted anything but wasn't. Not because she was careful though, just lucky.

Another thing I can't understand - why do they not use protection??????

Because addressing the need for protection takes away from the fantasy of it and makes it real.

Just telling you what my SAWH told me on the why's.

He felt entitled to take what he wanted, beautiful women. He was a high power exec with money. His colleagues were also acting badly when travelling abroad so "everyone was doing it". He compartmentalized and didn't care about the consequences. I would never find out. It was ego driven. Not much guilt.

He used protection with prostitutes but never with his 2 A partners as they discussed their sexual histories and were both clean. He could trust them as he was in a relationship with them. And he was fixed, so all good.

This is what I have been left to understand.

Sheesh.

Happy New Year all!!

Trustedg, she'd been sterilised and fwh had a vasectomy. He was only having sex with her and me. She was only having sex with fwh and her bh..... her bh was only having sex with her and I was only having sex with fwh. So what was the problem? Yep. He really believed there was no risk. Fucking stupid. He didn't understand my anger that he had put my health at risk. Sheesh. Cuckoo land.

Now I understand, UKgirl. Why didn't I see that?

They are so good and pure they wouldn't have a nasty disease.

For me, the lack of use of protection just typifies how detached from reality the A brain is.

Unfortunately, I wasn't so lucky - my gift is HPV. He was my one and only. It stinks.

I just don't think it is understandable.

There is just no way WH's mind works anything like mine so I have no show in trying to get "it" - Even now, how he sometimes behaves, the conclusions he sometimes comes too can seem so illogical, self involved and just plain odd to my way of thinking.

WH says he doesn't understand himself during his affairs so I have no show.

By striving to understand it I think I am trying to make sense of something that really has no acceptable explanation or reason. It is like I need to be able to hang my pain and distress on a single "fixable" thing (or a few things). Then when those are "fixed" I can be safe that it will never occur again. I will be protected from future heartache at his hands.

The fact that he did it because he wanted to, could do it and didn't care about anyone but himself doesn't sit well with me. I guess because I can't imaging ever being like that myself. However pre affair I am sure WH felt the same way about himself. Trying to understand it seems to be crazy making! Yet still I do it!

Yep protection only the first time. Never mind that she had been married three times and dated after that. She liked it better without so that is how it went. She was fixed so no problems!!

None of us will ever understand the logic they used to not feel the guilt while they were doing what they did. They were simply entitled for whatever reasons they gave themselves to remove the guilt from their actions. And then they tried to gives us reasons when they were caught, most of them blame shifting, still trying to remove their guilt. All about them, all the time. Now my H is trying to make it all about me. But that is again to remove the guilt he feels. He can now say he is doing "everything" to make it up to me. It is still all about him

lots of good insights here! What I'm taking away is my very early_in_this_process obsession with "fixing" him. I believed if he were fixed mt troubles would be over. I can hardly believe now the ways MY brain was acting then. It helped me to stay focused on a "cause" and clear solution.

Looking at it today I see this : (a) I can rationalize and make my mind believe something that today I no longer believe. That offers an interesting insight. Not a full explanation, but helpful to add to the recipe.

And (b) the struggle may be to find a "cause" that can be "fixed," offering the opportunity of a "cure" and possibility of never having this "disease" again. Maybe thats rge wishful thinking (aka rationalization) that is tripping me up.

But the alternative is scary as hell. It means the risk always is there, could occur again at almost anytime. It removes any feeling of control over the situation. Am I struggling for an answer that doesnt exist to protect myself from this truth? Im starting to believe this may e the direction to pursue.

Anyone still with me? Thoughts???

lots of good insights here! What I'm taking away is my very early_in_this_process obsession with "fixing" him. I believed if he were fixed mt troubles would be over. I can hardly believe now the ways MY brain was acting then. It helped me to stay focused on a "cause" and clear solution.

Looking at it today I see this : (a) I can rationalize and make my mind believe something that today I no longer believe. That offers an interesting insight. Not a full explanation, but helpful to add to the recipe.

And (b) the struggle may be to find a "cause" that can be "fixed," offering the opportunity of a "cure" and possibility of never having this "disease" again. Maybe thats rge wishful thinking (aka rationalization) that is tripping me up.

But the alternative is scary as hell. It means the risk always is there, could occur again at almost anytime. It removes any feeling of control over the situation. Am I struggling for an answer that doesnt exist to protect myself from this truth? Im starting to believe this may e the direction to pursue.

Anyone still with me? Thoughts???