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@Sassy: He didn't consider dating her. He stated that she (a separated woman) asked him out and he declined. He told his wife about it because he wanted to make it known that he was still desirable after he was convinced for YEARS that he was not. C'mon people. Give this guy a break already. So many of you are making him out to be the bad guy when he's not. Roommate, I'm angry for you bro.

Roommate,

Thanks for your update. If I may, I'd like to mention something that I sincerely hope doesn't come out as judgemental.

Coloringbook is trying for R. I know you guys are divorced and you may not be looking to R, but she is. She's hoping for it. Doing the work. R is her goal. She says she loves you so much. How do you feel about her?

So, regardless of whether she initiates sex or not, it's wrong to engage in it. Okay. Maybe I am being a bit judgmental, but please hear me out. She has a lot more invested in the two if you having sex than you do. She wants to R. She wants to to feel close to you. Having sex with you, being intimate is a way to do that. I don't know if she's trying to manipulate you with sex or not, but it seems like she's simply trying to bring the two of you closer. You know this. You know where her head is at. So even if yours is not there and you are not interested in R, you are aware of what her thinking is. And if you weren't, you are now. So given that, IMHO continuing to have sex with your ex is, in a way, leading her on. It is giving her mixed messages. You know she invests a lot more in it and because of that, you acquiescing gets her hopes up. Is that fair? Basically, it's fine if you want to watch her actions to determine if she is someone you can see yourself getting back together with. But having sex with her is not healthy and is frankly not the right thing to do.

Wishing you happiness, in whatever form that takes.

Respectfully ladies and gentlemen, but why is Roommate being held accountable more here? It was stated by him earlier today that he does not initiate sex with his ex wife. In addition, he stated months ago, that the sex was just that, sex. And yet not one person has gone to Coloring Book and told her to stop having sex with him. It seems like he is getting all the blame for her actions. Nobody is making her initiate sex with him. At some point, she needs to be held accountable as well. The double standard here is so evident.

I always think it's cruel to be sexual/intimate with someone who has emotions invested in the act and the other doesn't - even if that is stated up front. That's in any situation - infidelity or not. It's mean and it's taking advantage. If you have needs - masturbate.

I shake every time a phone vibrates. My wife was sending 12,000 text messages a month to om. I just learned what sexting was yesterday. My wife would tell om what she wanted to do to him and then they would meet up later that night and act it out. For 9 months straight they had sex nearly every day or night or both. She would tell me she was going to work out after workout after work and be gone till 3 or 4 am each night. And after I got the children on the bus each morning and then leave for my job she would race back to OM's house. I built a gym in my garage so she wouldn’t have to. Begged her to work out with me. She took her days off and got hotel rooms so they could have romantic days together. In 17 years she has never taken a random day off to spend with ME. I can count on two hand the times she gave me oral. Yet on her first date she went down on him in my van. I still can’t look at the stars as it takes me to them leaving work early to go to the pier at the end of my road to watch the meteor shower and have passionate sex by the ocean under the stars. Just a couple houses down from me tucking the children in. Remembering the time I went out of town and she had om over to watch movies with my kids. And then had sex with him on my back porch. The time she tried to get me to have a threesome with OM. Or telling me how her and om would laugh that they thought I was gay. She made a point to tell me my junk was too small. Knowing that for nearly two years she was content to have very little interaction with our children. Preferring to go to weekly “girl nights”. Do you know how many guy nights I have had in 17 years? None. Everything around me is a trigger. I haven’t looked her in the eye for months. Those same eyes that could stare right at me and spin countless lies. When I have to step over her panties on the bathroom floor it takes me to a time when she would leave “stained and smelly panties” on our bathroom floor. And I would think “we didn’t have sex? Perhaps that is just from her work out?” Or speaking of panties, how about the hundreds of dollars spent on a victoria’s secret credit card. Certainly impressing OM with her new collection. Times she bought sexy clothing to impress me…. You guessed it. She once sent me a pic on her phone of her in a night gown. OM got naked pics and she had a collection of his dic pics. She had them locked in a secret spot on her phone. I could go on the rest of the night. And I was fed these revelation (and very much more) over 4 years drip by drip. I was also made to think it was me. Like when we would have drinks with our neighbors and she would kiss all the men at the gathering right in front of me. Or when she went to a party and can’t remember how many girls she kissed that night. She thinks 5 or 6 but they brought her home to me passed out covered in vomit, the just dropped her on my front door step. I had to carry her in and wipe her up. I can’t do this any more. Sex for us now is me just laying there. I can’t do any of the actions that go with it. I am screwed up. Yes Infidelity has left me completely broken. I already answered the question about my coworker. Scroll up a few posts.

@Roommate: I am so sorry man. Again, you do not deserve any of these comments, especially when people really do not know what you have been through. Just know I feel your pain and you do have a friend here.

So given that, IMHO continuing to have sex with your ex is, in a way, leading her on. It is giving her mixed messages.

I am sitting back and watching how she reacts to everything. She can spin words and make you believe anything. She says she didn't fight me in the divorce because she is so confident in her changes. Those are words. When that is put to the test and she has to live by that agreement, what do her actions show. At the very first sign of perhaps having to live our agreement I notice a return to an old pattern. I came to ask if anyone else could see it. or If its just my imagination. Because if she is returning to manipulation I am done. I am watching her closely.... WHY? Because there is still hope. Despite all the shit I have been though there is still hope here. And right now this particular minute my ability to love is broken, shattered. I CLEARLY explained that to her and told her I did not want to confuse her by accepting HER advances. Did you not read the above where she told me we are both adults with needs and she had no illusions of what we were doing. I understand where other have pointed out that that has changed for her and it became more in her mind. You know what? I may have started to mean more to me too. We are both still here every day. Yeah I yelled at her the other day and told her she was my plan b and happiness was my plan a. Was it right? I don't know. I get so mad still. I get so sad still. I want to be sure before I commit to R. This may sound crazy but I feel like if I stay I will be sacrificing part of myself. Sacrificing happiness, be cause I feel I have lost so much of myself in this relationship.

I thank you all for your interest and will update you in the future. This place is a bit to triggery for me tonight.

I think you should not live together.

Roommate,

So sorry you are triggering. Please step away and take however much time you need.

Our situations are very different, but as a BH I have an inkling of what you are dealing with. Please know that I am in no way excusing anything Coloringbook did during your marriage. You put up with more than I could have. You are made of stronger stuff. The fact that you are even still there, post D, is a testament to you.

Having said that, I will say that IMHO, anything she did during your M is irrelevant to what is going on now. I have no clue what her mind set is. You do. But more importantly, just like her actions have consequences, so do yours. And the question you may want to ask yourself is, "what's the impact to me if I keep doing this with her?" Look, if you both are on the same page about what you're doing and why, that's your business. Personally, I think you guys need to separate. Especially if you are interested in getting out there into the dating pool again. Just for your own integrity. It's not about her. It's about you. And if you both aren't aligned regarding what sex means between you two, then it's not the best thing you could be doing.

I guess what I'm saying is that you've been dealt a real shitty hand. She's done a lot to you that most would have a hard time even contemplating getting over. Me? I'd have run and never looked back. You are wise to pay attention to her actions and not words. Make sure you take care of you if you stay involved with her. Don't let her manipulate you and don't lead her on. If that means not having sex with her, then that's likely the best course of action. Even if she initiates.

I sincerely wish you all the best...

-W

Respectfully ladies and gentlemen, but why is Roommate being held accountable more here?

And yet not one person has gone to Coloring Book and told her to stop having sex with him. It seems like he is getting all the blame for her actions.

At some point, she needs to be held accountable as well. The double standard here is so evident.

jbrent - I can't speak for others, but as a BH I rarely post on the Wayward forums. Frankly, my primary concern are Betrayeds, not Waywards. Not that Waywards don't need help as well, but it's a different kind. And I can relate to a BH specifically since I am one. So not posting on Coloringbook's threads have nothing to do with any double standard.

Regarding accountability, I'd say that being a BH does not give one license to any and all actions. Some may be understandable, but that doesn't make them right. There were things I said to my wife that wasn't right and I was called out for it. Rightfully so. The key is what kind of person am I and who do I want to be? I want to be the best person I can, my character and integrity intact. Not for her. For me. For my kids. And so I am accountable to me for my own behavior, regardless of what my wife did to me and our family.

My standing assumption is that folks want to be the best person they can be as well. And so in the face of this tremendous shitstorm we find ourselves in, we sometimes veer off course. SI members are not shy and have righted the ship for me and others many times. I always appreciated it. I assume others do as well. And that means not simply saying, "Hey dude, she screwed you over so go do whatever you want." And if I'm wrong, well...I guess the OP can simply ignore me.

RoomMate,

It is said on this board that you should take what you want and ignore the rest. Do not let some get in the way of you getting advise.

The fact that you are even considering R after what you have been through is remarkable.

Your WW still thinks and behaves like a wayward. You are smart to not try R until she changes her behavior.

She knows the score and can leave at anytime. People who condemn you do not realize you are keeping a window open. This is her only hope.

Hang in there and keep working on you.

[This message edited by rambler at 11:05 PM, January 12th (Tuesday)]

Walloped said it beautifully...

All bs's have a shit sandwich to swallow, whether we R or not. What your ws did during her a's was wretched. She was absolutely despicable. She was selfish and cruel. If she was unremorseful and continuing her wayward behaviours, saying cruel, demeaning things and shitting all over you and your family - I'd applaud any actions you take to get over on her.... But what do you think? Is she still being cruel to you? What do you see today? She definitely has a lot of work ahead - and time is necessary to see if she's made permanent changes - but how is she treating you today?

If you are done - if her past deviant, despicable acts are deal breakers - that's understandable. If you're not sure because you're waiting for action, not words, then 180. But nowhere in the healing library will you find anything that advises the course you're on now - because it won't help YOU heal.

Wishing you healing and clarity...this shit sucks - big time...

[This message edited by sassylee at 11:03 PM, January 12th (Tuesday)]

Much better post by Sassylee!

What you are doing RoomMate will not help you heal. You are not bad by doing what you are doing, however, you more than likely not helping yourself heal.

You need to heal first and foremost.

By the way, you enjoy to cook. Find a group or even a cooking class to start meeting people who share your interests.

After all you been through, you need to rebuild yourself. Always deal from strength. You can never allow anyone to treat you like you were treated.

@Walloped: I apologize if you might have thought my post was directed towards you. Believe me it wasn't. Now on to your post and forgive me if this post is everywhere because I'm so frustrated at how Roommate has been treated on here. I'm glad that you have been able to handle your situation with as much grace as possible. The sad fact of the matter is a lot of people don't react the same to this. I'm not saying that the BS should go out and have a RA. Roommate has done no such thing, but yet, this is how he has been treated. I have read multiple posts indicating that he is manipulative, a bad father, and a wayward. If you have not read CB's thread, then I suggest you do. In her initial post, she essentially lead people to believe those things. Thankfully she later refuted those claims, but it seems that only happened because he called her out on it. The double standard that I'm speaking of is not just accountability, but the type of responses he has received. CB posted on her thread and people came to her beck and call and made Roommate out to be a monster. This guy pours his heart out on this thread and the only responses he gets "stop having sex with her because you're leading her on and confusing her." I bring her up because hasn't she done the exact same thing? For years he was treated like crap and sex starved and now that he finally has had enough, he gets love bombed like crazy. If I was in his shoes, I would be confused too, heck probably more confused than she is.

All he is doing is navigating the best way he can. But because he hasn't chosen the dogmatic path that is seen on this site, he is the bad guy. I really do wonder that if he would have stayed married to his wife, would he be getting the type of responses he has gotten. He chose a different path than most. He chose to Divorce her first and see how much work she is willing to do. And quite honestly, can you blame him for that? After all he has been through, I would have a hard time believing anything his ex wife says as well. I honestly wish more betrayed spouses would follow in his path.

Lastly, I don't see how he is leading her on. He has stated multiple times that he has been nothing but upfront with her. If she or other people see that as lead on, then thats on them.

Hi Roommate,

I followed your old thread and I read some of ColoringBook's posts. I accidentally posted on a stop sign and got cut off from the Wayward Forum – do it twice and it's permanent reduction in privileges – so I have read her thread since.

I think Walloped is a good advisor, so I share his opinion that having sex with ColoringBook will prevent the two of you from moving on.

Actions speak loudly. By sleeping with her you are giving her hope. I would say that you are in a form of reconciliation. Call it Roommate's limbo land. It's a place designed especially for ColoringBook because you know her well.

That you told her about the woman who is interested in you and were interested in your ex's reaction is evidence that you are still in a co-dependent relationship. I think it's a very good thing that you keep up your guard. ColoringBook is a person with FOO issues and she is going to have to stay clean for a long while.

The technical description of your sex life is hilarious and I don't write that meaning to poke fun or ridicule either of you. How can you just lie there and be completely uninvolved? It's hard to imagine exactly. She must have strong legs.

ColoringBook wounded you so deeply that you cannot let go. She owes you a lot of one-sided pleasure sex before you can let your guard up.

To be honest I doubt that you are completely indifferent to her but you simply have a protective wall up.

As to the unfairness, well, she treated you very badly. So she needs to show that she can take it. You haven't physically separated and she should be happy that you haven't dumped her.

The harsh terms of your divorce are actually good for your kids because if you do separate and declare that all hope of reconciliation is in vain, she may come unwound. You being a hard ass and giving her something to work for in life is good for her. But do you want to be the father figure in her life?

Is coloring her hobby? I read an article about how artists create drawings and grown ups spend millions buying coloring books. What is the meaning of her name?

I don't know if you read her thread. I don't think you should but it is important that she keep it going. It gives her discipline.

Does she make you happy at all?

Do you have any reason to doubt her sincerity?

If you were to reconcile, would it be with or without remarriage?

I stand by my previous post. It's cruel to have sex with a partner who wants to R and who, according to RM is doing the work - while planning to date another woman and just using that sex for release - a "pump and dump" - it's mean... I think cbww was horrid during her A and I'm NOT advocating that RM offer her reconciliation. I'm saying that we don't have to lose sight of our own actions because we've been decimated - and I think we would be doing a disservice to our fellow members by giving all bs's a pass to be cruel. I'm not even suggesting that RM be kind. Until he's made the decision thats best for him - he should 180.

Roommate - this betrayal has done a number on you - as it has all of us. Pick a day, and you'll find a post where someone has declared the A has turned them into something they don't like. It doesn't make you evil, it doesn't mean you're a dink - it means you've been damaged. Don't let your ww's actions change who who you are at your core.

Room....I think you need to get out of there. It sounds like she and the house are just a museum of triggers. You paint a vivid picture of all the crap she put you through, along with the daily visual reminders. I do not see how you can progress in that environment.

Is it possible to get some physical space away? Just for awhile to get your head straight. Maybe get a little taste of what life without her would be like.

It just seems like everyday with her is an emotionl kick to your nuts.

RoomMate, your wife was as despicable a cheater as I have seen on this website and I posted as such during your original thread. Sometimes too much water has gone under the bridge to repair, something I also posted in your prior thread.

You are a good man, but you have not had a lot of experiences in relationships with women. Yes, some women will come hot and heavy when they want you. She did that for her other man. Now she is doing it for you. If you allowed it, even if she initiated it, you are in a sense leading her on. She is going to think "he has sex with me therefore he loves me."

Step aside from affair-world and crazy-world here and ask this question: If you know a man and a woman live together, have kids, and have sex with each other, do you assume they love each other? In general, do you think having sex is a loving activity?

You are a good man and you have spent your life trying to do the right thing. Your fault has been being too willing to put the pain on yourself and putting up with the affair and the lies, and even if you were unaware of her affair, you put up with way too much. This on the surface seems like a good thing, that you are willing to do this to sacrifice for the sake of your kids, but this allowed the situation to turn into the most despicable affair I've seen. If you had put your foot down sooner to her horrible behavior, than there might not be too much water under the bridge to repair. I do not blame you, I just tell you that, in retrospect, you did what you thought was right and it turned out that you should have done it differently than you did. You should have kicked her out back then. All you can do is do the best you can. I see that you still are trying to do what is right.

You talk about your ex-wife's "patterns" and "past behaviors." But look instead now for a minute at YOUR past "patterns" and "past behaviors." You put up with too much to sacrifice the kids. You stayed in that marriage too long.

Now, what are you doing now? Are you not still doing the same "pattern" of staying in that relationship and "hoping" and "watching"? What are you doing there, with her, in that house together, letting her have sex with you? You divorced her, but you did not leave her, instead you are living with her, having sex with her.

Look at all the bullshit that words are. We always tell the betrayed spouses to ignore the words and pay attention to the ACTIONS. That is a lesson that can be used in any part of life, at work, with friends - watch the actions, the actions will always be the truth of the matter. What are the ACTIONS in your situation, regardless of what you told her and she told you. What do the actions say?

I love my kids, and I would have wanted to sacrifice the way you did to make them happy, but I am pretty sure that I would not have been able to put up with the horrible treatment that you did. Fortunately I was not put in that situation that you were, but I think I would have kicked her out despite how much I wanted to sacrifice for my kids. I would not have been able to stay and keep a stable life for the sake of the kids in the house like you were able to while she was cheating. I commend you for the sacrifice, but by the same token, maybe you have to learn when to say when and let it go and move on. I see that "pattern" to you. It is a difficult thing to do to decide how much to sacrifice for your kids versus how much to be happy for yourself. If you sacrifice too much for your own happiness for the sake of the kids, resentment may build up, situation devolves to the point where you can't ever repair itself. Using an analogy of having an infection in your foot, but you put up with it and don't go to the doctor for a very long time. When you do go to the doctor, the doctor says "it's too late, we need to amputate, if you had come here sooner we could have saved your foot, but it's too damaged and it can't be fixed." That may have happened with your relationship with your ex-wife.

Think about your own past "pattern." Think about your (and her) actions and what is the truth based on the actions versus what words are being said.

jbrent...

We moderators watch all the activity on this site...please leave the moderating to us, as we will step in if needed.

Well, well, well, I read both of their threads and I must admit I've never seen a BH treated in such despicable way and the meanest comments I could find here. And I wonder why it is not o.k. to speak against reconciliation but is understandable, o.k. and justified to throw mud in his face as was done here? I also wonder if it would be o.k. if someone would have used the same degrading terminology and told a wayward or a betrayed wife he/she should go and masturbate instead of cheating. Just saying!

So, after this preface, hi RM. I want to tell you here and I will explain it immediately that you shouldn't take those comments to heart. You are the betrayed party so you should have eaten the shit sandwich and of course you have the penis so as a man expect to be always at fault and mean. However, let me tell you something and I will explain it immediately too. Nothing that you'll do will ever, but ever, put you in the same league of meanness as your wayward wife. I said league? You're not in the same planet or even in the same universe as her.

Let me explain you what is mean. Your wife cheating behind your back for years this is mean. Your wife continues cheating on you while in some alleged reconciliation this is mean. Your wife rejecting and denying you sex while cheating this is abuse. Your wife manipulating and using sex as means of control is mean. Your wife is doing this in front of you making you a cuckold is really, really, mean. Your wife continues to play and manipulate you with sex into reconciliation this is mean and your wife throwing mud at your face in an online forum and lying this is mean.

You my friend are divorced and no matter what you've done this will never be cheating so you will never be at her level. Even in the most banal and trivial technical way, it's impossible. You're not a MH; never was and never will be. Don't let anyone blame you into this and stop apologizing yourself for that and internalize those anti male shaming tactics. Next time when your wife wants sex tell her simply and straightforwardly that you are divorced. You're no more her ATM; you're no more her unpaid bodyguard and you're not her sex toy and if she needs some sex, to use other's posters words and analogies, she should get a vibrator and masturbate.

But, yes, I know, women don't masturbate. I was also brought up and taught they never cheat either; they are emotionally and morally superior to us men. However, you see reality taught us something different. Being so manipulative, I even doubt your XW has that emotional intelligence to know what's really hurtful but if she's SOOO hurt then she stops manipulate herself and others and this will stop her hurt too. Let me tell you something. Your wife was playing and manipulating you with her rejecting while in affair; your wife, not you, is using sex as a mean of her manipulation post affair. There's nothing changed with the manipulation only with the way she does it. It's not your responsibility to stop this and it is mean at her part not yours.

Anyway, as I said, you're being the man so you'll always be at fault. If you'll not want to reconcile, it's your fault; if you want to reconcile but hurting too much then it's you "punishing" her if you're not into the sex; if you do have sex, although it's all her manipulations and needs, then you're abusive and should go to masturbate. You see this is how equality looks like. You take responsibility for your actions but if it's your wife you'll still take the responsibility for her. She will never be called out on this. They will always put you in a no-win situation. I know; it's hypocrisy, double standard, whatever. Don't take it to heart it is what it is and this is what we have to deal with.

What I can suggest to you is to try to remove you from that situation and the emotional abuse involved in it. If you have to live together and this is how she lies about you and puts you down in a public forum then protect yourself with an in-home separation because who know wherever she does this IRL. If you still want to reconcile then unless she has healed and to protect yourself from further abuse because who knows where she does it in real life, then move out and see how she progresses in her therapy or whatever she does. Protect yourself because what you're experiencing is not funny. Anyway, those who threw mud at you should be ashamed of themselves.

As to the girl, hence you've been divorced don't internalize the disgusting shaming tactics against you because you've not cheated on your wife. It's her being cheating on you. Plain and simple! However, I think you still should hit the other direction and run away from that girl. Even if it was you that stoped her from being involved in an affair, she still instigated it and was chasing it. If she's done this to her XH, she'll do this to you too. I also don't think, especially in your situation, after being cheated on and mistreated twice in a reconciliation, to date on the rebound is a good idea. It is never good; it's not healthy! The most important thing, don't internalize any blame. You're a good, decent and a honest man. I think sometimes, just too good!

BTW, RM, I do hope that you return. There are a lot of people who care here about and want to help you.

IGBTD

[This message edited by ImGoneByTheDown at 10:13 AM, January 13th (Wednesday)]

Wow, how did this thread go off the rails so quickly? Tossing around terms to Roommate like “cruel” and being responsible for the breakup of another marriage. Really???? C’mon folks. I know SI can be the epicenter for infidelity projection on threads that trigger people, but Roommate is not your WH.

He should be detaching from CBWW because their current situation is really unhealthy. Walloped described it very well. But telling him he is cruel for sleeping with his ex-wife is about as helpful as someone telling a BW her husband cheated on her because she was fat and cold. Blaming him for another woman leaving her husband is also as pointless. He cannot control other people. And HE IS NOT DATING THIS OTHER WOMAN.

Roommate – CBWW wants you back. Enticing you to sex and spinning her narrative are just forms of manipulation, but I really don’t think they are the insidious manipulations of a remorseless WW. I think she is doing the best that her very messed up self can do given that she really wants you back.

I really do think you need to detach from her to get perspective. I get that being rejected for so long has really broken you. But you are not doing your healing, or hers, any favors with the current arrangement.

Strength and blessings to you and to CBWW.