SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Angelvictorious

I agree. I wish my WS would fight for me like these people. But unfortunately, he seems to be impatient with how long it is taking me to "Get over it."

Some very good replies on here from WS, I wish mine got it like they seem to. Especially root and mrs walloped. Some of the things you both mentioned are things I’ve been looking for from my ws but just haven’t got there with him.

I have to agree. Some WS's get it, some never do.

I didn't respond to this thread at the time because it would have been hard for me to find other words from what Mrs. Walloped already said in the thread. What she said totally resonated with me then as it does today.

The only reason I am adding anything, it's really for the other waywards who are on this journey. It is an uphill battle, without a doubt. But if you put in the work, and you are consistent, I just want to say it's the best battle you will fight in your life. Not just for your spouse, and marriage, but for you as a person. I wish I could take back the affair and have learned the things I learned another way, but I definitely would not take back the time spent working on myself over the last year. Try and keep your focus on that when it gets hard.

"It wasn't about you." While those words are a key tenet of emotional intelligence (the actions of others are not your responsibility), the flip side of that is really dark.

I had a rather shitty thought about this. The fact is that yeah, it kind of is about you (meaning you/me the BS). Note, this won't make anyone feel better...but it all comes back to this love concept. (Also note, I am NOT directing this at anyone inparticular - these are just my own meandering thoughts on this topic so please do not think I am bashing anyone as I'm really not).

The short answer:

No, they didn't love you during their A. No, they didn't love their AP during their A. No, they likely didn't love themselves during their A either.

Now for the shitty answer. While their choice "isn't about you" something I've struggled with in the past is paring that away from the cake eating. The fact is that the choice WAS in part about you, otherwise how could cake-eating really take place? The classic dissection of this issue requires this idea: 1) the choice to cheat isn't about you, and 2) the WS was "selfish" in doing "what they wanted" by having the A, lying, blah blah blah.

So - what they "wanted" wasn't you, BS - at least not the 100% you assumed you were getting when you committed to eachother. It was something else - someone else - whatever. So, looking at the "love" idea in that light, how could they possibly have loved YOU when they did not want only you at that time? Answer: they couldn't and they didn't. I'm just not buying anything other than that - as it's simply not possible. If I wasn't first to my WH, and he wanted something other than me, and he was willing to put those actions first OVER me, than it was about me in a way and when you put your own wants and needs over someone else's and do things to hurt them - that's not love my friends. It just isn't.

I think this whole the A wasn't about you the BS is kind of like telling someone that rain at their wedding is good luck - it's just a load of BS. The CHOICE to have the A is absolutely 100% NOT about the BS - that's all on the WS for sure...but the thing that really hurts is the WS WANTED something/someone other than their spouse. Who cares why they wanted them - but they did because for whatever reason the BS "wasn't enough" for them. Does that mean there was a damn thing you as the BS could do to make yourself "enough???" - nope, probably not. But the fact remains, for whatever messed up reason, I wasn't enough for my WH - while I don't believe anyone would have been regardless of who they were because he wanted MORE - more ego boosts, more secrets, more affirmation, more more more - the fact remains that "enough" for my WH wasn't me.

So where do you go from that point? So how can they prove they love you? IDK - does my WH "love" me? Does he know what love actually means? Is he capable of real love? Who knows - the only thing I KNOW now is that he is capable of actual betrayal, lies, and deceit to a level I never imagined, and it doesn't stop with me - he betrayed one of his best friends too. Does he sound like a person who understands love? Hmmm...not really.

How about starting by proving to me that you know what love is at all. That's where I'd say you start from. Because here's the deal - if you didn't love me/don't know what love is at the time I busted you on D-day, have you somehow magically figured out what love is and what it means just because I forcibly terminated your secret A? All of a sudden because I took away the thing you WERE choosing OVER me, that now you know what love is and want to prove it to me. Sounds doubtful. What that sounds like is panic.

Proving love means actually feeling it. Not that desperate attachment nonsense that happens after d-day, but really wanting more for someone else than yourself, without asking for anything in return. So, I guess there is nothing you can do to "prove" your love, as that seems to be asking for something in return already - affirmation of belief. Just live it - let yourself fall in love with your BS if that is really how you feel - and accept that maybe that will be "enough" for them and maybe it won't, and trust them to be honest with your heart, even if ultimately they cannot stay with you. It's the least you can do for someone you love...

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 10:31 AM, December 7th (Friday)]

Thisislonely,

I just wanted to say I hear you. The whole thing is a mindfuck, and the amount of things to accept and the different perceptions that one has to try on to get to a place that is more bareable is just staggering. Of course I can completely understand how saying "it's not about you" is like saying "it's not personal" when it's completely personal.

I will let the BS's weigh in on your post, but since I said this just in a post to a BS this morning I wanted to at least acknowledge I hear what you are saying on this.

When I say it as a WS, it's because it would not have mattered who I married, I have character deficits that are there no matter what. I know that part of the pain a BS experiences is losing some of the magical experience of romantic love, when one can believe that what you have is special enough to over come anything. It ruins the happily ever after vision we have of our life when we choose to marry someone.

But, the reality of it is I could have married someone who looked like Robert Redford (or put in whoever you want here), he could have treated me like a princess. But, the reality of it is that my perfectionistic drive to be superwoman would have still made me over do everything in my life to feel worthy of love. I had expectations on myself that were unrealistic, that left no room for me, and I blamed that on my husband. I turned it into what he required. I built up the resentments. I used those resentments to fuel the entitlement that I had to go and find someone else to make me feel less pain about myself.

I am not disregarding your post. It brought tears to my eyes about the mental gymnastics a BS goes through to start to put things back together again. Your world just collapsed and of course it's personal to you, and it's about you. And, it sucks to find out you married someone with such character defects that you couldn't just be enough for them. But, when people say "it's not about the WS", of course you understand it's not a statement of your attractiveness, who you were as a wife, what you did or didn't do....it's a statement about the WS and their shittiness. Maybe that will never be the thing that brings you solace, but whatever does I hope that it does come to you because you do deserve peace.

ThisissoLonely, I have to agree with you somewhat. The WS chose to cheat on us with someone else. It was a conscious decision that was repeatedly made in many cases. To the extent there is love, it was not the love of a married couple but a friendship love, one that we share with someone that we don't owe any obligation of fidelity. You cannot really cheat on a friend because friendship love, by its very nature, is non-exclusive. The WS merely downgrade their love for their BS to friend love thus removing the barrier of exclusivity. Of course that is not the love of marriage.

This thread has been incredibly insightful and thought provoking to me as I travel this incredibly painful journey. Hikingout, thank you for you incredible insights, they have been most helpful to my efforts at understanding my WW's LTA EA.

No worries hikingout. You’re response was exactly what I was trying to say. I wasn’t enough for him because no one or nothing would be in the case of my WH I think that PART of his issues stem from untreated severe depression that is not an excuse not will I let him blame that (and he hasn’t tried to, to give him credit) but I think the attention, the affirmation, the someone needing to be “rescued” and all the ego stroking made him feel more alive...even if part of that feeling “alive” was resoundingly bad (he says he felt more down than he ever had during the last year) he also got to feel really *special* and super wanted and that up and down was better for him in some ways than the average normal day. He had something to focus on that wasn’t just emptiness inside of him. It was, in his words, a dangerous distraction.

I don’t think there was a damn thing I could have done to change that for him or to make him see that he doesn’t want to live in this doldrums anymore. I think the lid is off the jar so to speak but what he does with it now remains to be seen. So Iin That regard it wasn’t about me at all and I totally get that. It’s a double sided coin and on both sides “I” lose. Sigh.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 5:53 PM, December 7th (Friday)]

How can you say you love me when you did this to me?

William I too asked my FWW this in the aftermath of DDay and like so many others she just looked at me like a deer in the headlights... no answer.

It wasn't until a good year had passed and she spent a lot of time working her issues that she said something to me to the effect that:

"You know LWP, I don't think I did love you when I was having my affair, because I was too busy loving myself. My own wants and needs and selfishness came before you, our son, my family...everything. Since the end of the affair, and after I started to really accept what a selfish and cruel person I had been, did my love for you and everyone else start to return. Now there is no other person on this planet who I love more than you. And I don't just love you, I'm in love with you, even though I know you will probably never feel the same about me."

Needless to say this blew me away. I still don't know how to feel or react to it. It didn't make me mad. In fact, I gained a new respect for her for having the courage to tell me this.

William I hope your WS offers you something similar one day. It doesn't fix things, but it goes a long way.

What do I think a wayward has done? They've dug an even deeper hole for themselves, made their brokenness a problem for others and have to deconstruct before emerging as a person who is worthy of the innocence they stole.

How can you say you love me when you did this to me?

How can I prove I love you after I did that to you?

I honestly, as others have said here, question the depth of love a WS could feel for others all along. It is different. You cannot truly love someone and want what is best for them and do this to them. It isn't possible. It is like saying I adore my children but I'd cut their leg off the be sure I could stand. You cannot - you cannot put that pain on your child even if it would help you stand because you know the awful pain and suffering they'd encounter and the way in which their life would change forever. You already don't have a leg so why would you do that to someone you love so much?

Well that's what a WS has done - that empty hole inside that cannot be filled internally opens a hole in their loved ones. Now there are holes everywhere. For the WS the hole must be closed to even come close to getting to remorse and being worthy of those they hurt. Where does that leave the BS? On their own. They were on their own anyway but just didn't know it. So the battle is big for the WS - learn to love yourself. I don't happen to think that a WS decides to love themselves more than they love their BS to have an affair. I think it is they opposite. They don't love themselves making love for the BS inconsequential. It wasn't really there the way we thought.

So the battle to be won is to find the depth of love and caring for others the non-BS's in life already have.

ISSF,

I do not see the core problem of waywards being that they don't love themselves. More the opposite.

I suspect that Hikingout would agree with me that the last thing a wayward says before they go down the infidelity path is "I deserve this." They justify it to themselves. Have read it here and seen it.

I've never been a wayward. Do you think BS are all well adjusted and love themselves? I have my own issues. Spent years alone because of shame issues. Do you think I loved myself then?

I never came close to cheating, but if I had any thoughts on the matter, they immediately went to a rush of empathy for my wife at the time. I can't do this to her, it would be incredibly hurtful. I did not need to go through the experience of infidelity from either side to feel this. It must be an innate human empathy.

Waywards are able to turn this empathy off temporarily or permanently. Because they feel they deserve it. I don't see a self-love deficit there.

I think there is a difference between selfishness and self love. The two can be mutually exclusive.

My WS didn't love himself when he had his A. He was empty - completely empty. He had negative thoughts that told him how worthless he was and he didn't have enough self love to overcome it. So he decided to throw everything away to try to get his worth back because he had none intrinsically.

I would say that he chose himself over me and our family but it was not about loving himself. It was about finding that value extrinsically to try and fill that void. Unfortunately, it didn't work. It didn't help him love himself more.

I don't come here often anymore. But when I do, it's because something is bothering me and often I don't know exactly what it is, but it is a consequence of his cheating. And every single time, there is a recent post that resonates with the feelings I have and it helps to read it and the incredibly eloquent and honest replies. This is the one I needed today.

Raindrop, I read your profile and I sure am glad if this thread gave you any sense of peace. Stay well!

Easy. Put as much time in effort into healing uour spouse as you did trying to xgeat. Be as ambitious and as creative as you were for the OW. Let her see browsing historys with hours uppn hours of research to make her feel better. Foot and back rubs with no expectation of sex in return. And lastly your definition of love. You can't walk around saying feel the same way you always have for her. That wasn't enough to keep your pants up, that is useless white noise. You have to feel differently now about her, what love really is and your marriage.

It was so out of character for me to have an A. IDK what was going on in my head, but I certainly wasn't thinking about my H or my kids at that time. I know I didn't have a dreamlike M, but I do have a H who really loves me and I truly feel his love- even after what I've done. I feel we communicate better, we are more attentive to each other and are more aware if something is "off" with one another. I feel guilt daily for my A (for making that decision to throw my marriage vows in the garbage), but I also am remorseful for the hurt I caused my H with my A. IDK if I can ever show enough gratitude and love to him for not giving up on me or our M, but I am happy to keep trying!

I should also add that I have been very transparent with all of my social media accounts and email and he has full access to my phone whenever he wants.

[This message edited by Lovesorange at 10:56 AM, December 10th (Monday)]

I agree with ISSF - there is a difference between selfishness and self-love. I had lots of selfishness, but self-love?

There is entitlement, but it's a way for the Wayward to justify it...instead of seeing it as selfishness they disguise it as a reward for their selflessness.

A person who has an affair often has self esteem issues. I did. The need for the external validation and attention was a big why of mine.

Also, someone who loves themselves, truly...it's a pure thing. Wholesome. Meaning that you know you are doing the best you can, that you are overall a good person with good intentions, you withhold your integrity, and you carry relationships that have mutual respect with others. Self love comes from some levels of self-actualization, and people who have affairs are not living to their potential in life.

I can see how they can be jumbled together, and I do realize entitlement is probably there any time someone makes the leap to cheat, but underneath they know they are full of bullshit. They block it out. You can't love yourself at the same time you are blocking the good things to do the bad things. You can't really love any one else either.

You can't love yourself at the same time you are blocking the good things to do the bad things. You can't really love any one else either.

^^ this

Here is a another simple question of mine, hikingout. How does the need for external validation and attention lead to having an EA/PA affair?

Hi William,

I am not sure if it would have done it for me by itself. For me, this was a need I didn't even realize I had, but when I looked back on it, I could see how I always had that need for extra attention and I could see where the root cause for it was. I know FOO issues are often cliché things to take note of, but if you met my mother TODAY, forget even who she was when I was a child, you would see that she crowds everything and everyone out by whatever it is that strikes her fancy. She was emotionally abusive and very self involved and super controlling. She ruled her kids with fear. So, from that there were self esteem issues, mixed in with the need to be perfect, to be seen, the need to be the center of attention in my peer groups, etc.

I honestly couldn't look at just the need for external validation and say it would have been enough to push the affair. It was the combination of all the attributes I had with some added stressors to my life that I didn't want to deal with. I say this because it's not like it was the first time I was ever hit on, and I was never tempted before. I traveled with men, I had great boundaries and they weren't hard to up hold. I purely was never interested in any one else, ever.

But, it was the first time I had empty nest, first time in 20+ years of realizing I wasn't needed by my family in the same ways (lost a lot of validation there), and then the added work-aholic over-doing stress that came at the same moment with the opening of my husband's business (lost more validation with that because I wasn't able to juggle all that needed to be juggled and I was failing in my eyes, rather that being the competent overachiever that I was used to - the one that was worthy of love). The two things happening at once exposed a lot of my character weaknesses.

The outside validation from the AP was kind of replacing the validation I was getting from being super mom and super wife. It was a void I had filled in myself long ago when we became a family, I didn't know it was still there all that time just waiting to open back up. But, it wouldn't have just happened because I needed that, it was that factor and then add the other factors together that pushed me over the edge. For sure, I was at a place where I didn't want to cope with my life, I wanted to escape it.

When the AP started blowing smoke up my butt it really connected in with my need to feel special to someone, to be part of this great love story and to be seen with eyes of adoration.

None of that was really happening of course, but I really needed it to be. It was part of the escape, I was back to being "pefect" to someone, "seen" by someone. It was all phony and false, but it alleviated me to have the need to cope with all the things that were really going on.

Anyway, the need for external validation for me was only a part of what went into having an affair. By itself, I don't think it would have been enough, but it was definitely a big precipitating factor and definitely what kept me in the A.

I again need to push back on the self-esteem language.

There are many, many people who have self-esteem issues. Also many, many people with holes inside of them that they try and fill in various ways. Having an A is a specific action the requires the WS to be ignorant or turn off the normal feelings of empathy one should feel when about to partake in an action that the WS knows will be incredibly harmful to the BS.

I will add that from reading the Wayward board, the "I'm a good person" talk is very prevalent. The happy talk, I'm really a good person talk, from people with multiple As, makes me think that the focus on self-esteem is a little misplaced. Most As are still reaching out to people, engaging in As, interacting with others, which to me does not strike me as self-loathing behavior. It is "I deserve to do this" behavior.

Also, IMO for a WS to heal completely, they need to look back with horror, disgust, and revulsion upon their own behavior. That their own behavior hurt someone they love, and that behavior makes the WS feel worthless. The WS is alive, has the gift of life, needs to make use of it, shouldn't stay in the valley of shame and despair. But they should definitely visit it. THAT is part of being human.

Many WS, even in R'ed marriages, never make that journey. There is rugsweeping aplenty in many Rs. BS have their own journey and own ways they can get stuck. But I do not see the self-esteem journey typically being a primary focus for WS in most cases.