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TH- what I hear in all of this is that you feel you don’t have the truth and that you don’t think she is honest about many things. This doesn’t ring true for you and you are just to the point you wish she would have just ripped the bandaid off to begin with. I don’t think it’s completely about the sex.

My best guess is the AP made her feel something she thought she needed. What that is could be a lot of things, but likely it was some sort of validation. My experience in the A is that you kind of play a role (not sexually), you get to be someone else and escape reality. The AP is probably mirroring something to her that is making her feel seen.

If you are asking can it be true someone would fly to be with someone and not have mindblowing sex, the answer is yes. I never told H that I didn’t enjoy the sex. But, it was not mind blowing, no O. We didn’t know each other, and he sure as heck didn’t know my body. It really was just okay. But that’s not what is important, doesn’t matter if it was 3 seconds long or 3 toe curling hours. It shouldn’t have happened period. But would I have gone to the effort to fly to do it? Yep. Because the validation was strong, the fantasy was strong, who I could be and the escape was powerful. The sex wasn’t what I was seeking, though at the time I don’t know what I thought I was seeking, but it sure wasn’t sex, like Goldenr said I do think most women could go to a bar and be getting nsa sex in a very short order.

If you want to stay it’s not weak it’s strong but the focus needs to be that you have the full truth, and that she can articulate why she got in that plane. I get why some try to TT, but why that’s the wrong move. She should know now too. If needed do poly. Maybe you have the truth, but the mind of someone cheating has much distortion and is hard to believe.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:59 PM, May 29th (Tuesday)]

My husband's OW left on a Monday, flew for 24 hours, arrived Tuesday, was with him until Thursday morning, then turned around and flew 24 hours back home. And she'd never had sex with him so she had no idea if it'd be good or not. Now THAT is some effort to get laid.

I think HikingOut provides good insight. Affairs are about feeling desired, feeling wild and free. They're about escape. They're not usually about having slightly better sex than you do at home. The fact that it's forbidden is what makes it fun, not the actual mechanics of it. I don't think she can legitimately defend the mechanics of it because O or not, it's certainly not fun in retrospect when she has caused so much pain and disruption over it.

As a BS, what I needed to hear was that he sees how empty and disgusting that relationship was now that it's in the light of day. I personally didn't need to know about the sex because I know I'm hot stuff and anyone would be lucky to have sex with me. It's not a competition. I'm sure I could have good sex with other people, and so could you, but the key to monogamy is to honor your partner and protect your relationship.

When I think of the affair sex, I'm sure it was both enjoyable and awkward in that moment of time. In retrospect, it's one of the worst things my husband has ever done, and he would undo it if he could. A few seconds of pleasure, no matter how mind-blowing, could never be worth losing your integrity, risking your marriage and family, and subjecting yourself to years of hard work.

From reading other posts, I know that it's common for BH to struggle with what you're describing, so my advice may be off point. But I think what your wife is describing now about viewing him negatively is because the fog has lifted and she now sees her disgusting acts through the eyes of others, not the secret bubble of the affair.

Revenge affairs are so common because when you've been hurt in this way, you want to know that you are desirable. You feel rejected by your spouse and would love to know that others see your value when your spouse wouldn't. But you are always you, with some apparently impressive bedroom skills to boot. Anyone would be lucky to be with you. When your wife forgot that, it was because of the emptiness inside of her, not because of anything you did or didn't do.

TH, if you want to be validated, I think that you're right. You absolutely do not have the truth from her. You may have her truth 'right now' but all that stuff about not touching and all that...that feels like someone being disingenuous.

Hikingout's post is really insightful, I think, because she had an affair. Of course she's not your wife, but as a woman I think that her words make a lot of sense.

TH. Seriously. She is a drowning woman and will say or do anything at this point to try to keep you. Do you really expect her to say yes, I loved every fucking second of it? She might not have had an O, but the hard fact is that at that given point in time he was everything and you were nothing. It may not be the case now, but it was then.

Same in my case. No amount of backpedaling or telling me he meant nothing, or she only loved me, or that the kind of sex they had wasn't fulfilling will negate the fact she let this guy fuck her over and over and over again. Frankly, I could have have cared less that this guy was fulfilling some mumbo jumbo need of hers to feel young and vibrant again.

I wouldn't spend another second trying to analyze this. She got in an airplane expressly for the purpose of screwing the guys brains out. She is never going to tell you what you know. Frankly I would not have told my wife either if the shoe was on the other foot. It is just survival for her.

Then the question just becomes what you can live with and how she is now.

Either way at some point you need to make a decision.

To not is to stay in limbo hell

Hikingout- so why couldn’t you be that person with your H...I’ve spent almost all of our marriage trying to get her to open up the way she was for him..I talked to her and did all sorts of things to help her..I validated her all the time but she ignored me. If you knew the thing I have done for her to get her to see me and open up to me you’d can say wow..that women is f’ed up to not see or want that..he gave her nothing..plain and simple she was done with the marriage..she was just too much of a coward to end it. Even after he dumped her she continued treating me like shit..didn’t even try to change anything with us..just oh well..I’ll just sweep it away. Had he not dumped her and I hand not confronted her she would still be having the affair and still treating me like crap. So wondering why I now don’t care nor want to see her blows her mind..cause we’ll im here now why don’t you want to see me..sucks when you screw someone over for you bs reason and they don’t want return the favor anymore..hey I treated you like crap but how dare you do it to me cause I’m her now..blows my mind to think people can do these thing an then not understand why we are not willing to give it back in return..I spent years trying to and you showed me you didn’t want it..now I’m burnt out, tired and just don’t have the heart for it anymore...the best iOS the surprise in their eyes that we no longer waited.

Guess hell is just comfortable...I’m used to being burned I guess. I’ll take my time deciding..year, two year, 10yrs doesn’t matter anymore..I will chose one day and at least it won’t be a surprise...

It sounds like her reasons might have been different than mine. I in no way think the A was h’s fault but the way you describe isn’t how he is. He is a good man, I am not bashing him. He just isn’t that way. But I see now how he expresses love and appreciate it differently now. I have come to realize he would be no different if I were Cindy Crawford herself. Again, the A is completely my fault and unjustified. I am only explaining that the situation was different so I haven’t a full answer.

I don’t know your wife but it sounds like low self esteem- she didn’t believe you because you know her. He doesn’t know her so she could be whoever she wanted. (Now that part was definitely part of my situation- I am not saying I was way different but free from whatever role I play at Home)And she may have accepted his treatment as what she deserves. Some women (and men) are more comfortable being treated that way. It’s really f’d uo gor sure but she should be gaining insight about her whys and how’s in IC. Is she not going? Why?

hope you can find a way to have her tell the truth.

will she pay for a poly?

will she sign a post nup agreement?

Is there something she is willing to do to put that kind of effort into you?

Hey there. For those that are suggesting you are minimalizibg your ww’s A, try to pay that no mind. You’re in the dissecting phase of everything and it’s completely normally to go through the motions of this however you mind takes you through it. So keep asking questions. I think it’s all part of the healing process. Just remember, no matter what the answers were at one point in her mind or what they are now, they may never make sense to you or her nor will they take away from the magnitude of her choice to have the affair. Nor will those answers change that she is trying to save what is left, if she can, bc she loves you. Hopefully she’s being honest in her feelings with you. Hopefully she’s realized that regardless of how the sex was, she still chooses you bc you are you. And hopefully she really does love you and that’s why, to her, the sex really could have been amazing BUT she loves you for you. All your qualities including sex. Ugh I’m probably not making sense as best as I’d like and hope I’m not being offensive. What I’m trying to say is she made awful selfish choices to step out. Why? Who knows but those answers are important bc they had nothing to do with you. She needs to figure that shit out. She wants to make it work with you because you’re the whole package. Sex with him could have been amazing but that doesn’t change that he isn’t you and it seems that she’s coming out, looking in and thinking omg. No. I want my H. Not this POS fantasy world that is just good sex. How did I ever jeopardize my H for that? Hope that helps.

You get to decide what you want to do now for you. Work on it? Leave? Will knowing about the quality of sex help you determine that? If so, dig deeper to find out. If not then... try not to ruminate over it if you can. Go for a walk or run or read a book. Try to divert your attention from it.

[This message edited by FoenixRising at 10:33 PM, May 29th (Tuesday)]

It is so frustrating to me to frequently read a man's interpretation of a woman's thought process that is so far off the mark. Every time a man writes that the sex 'must have been great,' I think how that guy does not understand women at all.

For a woman, the brain is the only sex organ.

What twisted says seems spot on to me. He gets it. We create the sex with our minds; the guy does not create it with his body. Sorry.

As a p.s., this is why we can think sex with someone is great and then later on is terrible. If the way we think and feel about you changes, our view of the quality of sex changes. Even if nothing actually changes.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 10:44 PM, May 29th (Tuesday)]

Does she need an O to enjoy it? That's just too much effort for sex you don't even enjoy. But there's a phrase I often hear men say, sex is like pizza, even bad sex is still good. So I guess she really wanted pizza with him.

Not a WW here, but I have to agree with William. As I understand it she had just met the OM. The whole things was so impulsive, a real rush, doing something crazy and out of character, an escape from reality. She went for the adrenaline rush of following an impulse. Whether the sex was good, great or meh, I doubt that it was the motivating factor. Then reality comes back and hits her in the face and it’s back to her life and you get the kind of explanations you have from your WW.

TH

IMO your WW affair was sex deriven, just not the act It self but the fantasy arround It, thats why they made movies, sexting, pplaning to meeting, etc.

So, in the phisical part, I belive you are better, but un the perception you werent, even arent, that good. Why? no New, not forbithen, no exiting, no hidding, etc.

In a nutshell, you may be a better lover but dont generate the fantasy that OM did.

The sex happens un the brain, and the brain generate fantasys, and you my friend were not a good sex fantasy for your WW.

The good part is that fantasys that existed in the past dont endure time or adversity. The fantasys are gone.

It doent mean that she may fond the fantasy time when not having a phisical contac, even now that she regrets the A. I still remember the crear sex parts of an awfull relación I had long time ago, even when not relates ti phisical Contact.

Good lucj

OwningIt: I understand what you describe. From a man's perspective, the WW has invested time, energy, imagination, and resources for the specific purpose of having sex with another man. And in doing so, she has deprived her BH of this same time, energy, imagination, and resources, and the sex that was involved.

For many BH's, R will not be successful unless they feel this has been made right. It doesn't matter if the other man was a fantasy or an escape from reality. What matters is that she put this other man first, and her husband last, for purposes of sex.

What dumbfounds men who are trying to make sense of this is where the WW reports that the sex wasn't good. As stated in another thread, if a WW is going to inflict that kind of injury on a BH whom she claims to love, it damn well better be for some mind-blowing, face-melting, shoot me all the way to the moon and back sex.

My WH flew out to have sex with OW. She was a co-worker, they had a long distance EA for a couple of years, had seen each other a handful of times during that period, all business-related meetings, never, ever alone.

The OW flew out to "see" him while he was training a class in another state. She was preggo with her BS child at the time. She used the excuse that she was visiting her gf who lived in the area. She asked permission to visit WH training class, and he said yes. All she wanted was to get some of weird type of validation, the funny thing is he never spoke to her one-on-one while she was in the class and the subsequent dinner. She was desperate and pathetic. She got on a plane and flew to another state just to get a glimpse of WH. Maybe she had some type of fantasy that they would hook up somehow, didn't happen, not even close.

Almost a year later, after she gave birth, my WH flew out to her site early to meet up for sex. (On a side note, her BH also worked for the same company, the three of them were together in meetings the next couple of days.)

She met him at his hotel, the sex was awkward and basically a slam, blam, thank you mam. No foreplay, no passion, very robotic. Like two to three minutes. WH couldn't wait for her to leave his hotel room.

I know this from the emails I was able to retrieve, WH is telling the truth as OW also alludes to hoping their next rendezvous is better.

WH and OW were planning to meet again when he was visiting her site about two months later. Fortunately, I found out before he made that trip. He already had a separate hotel room booked, and the online sex talk escalated prior to his visit.

After D-Day, I also questioned WH why he was going back for sex bc the first time was a disaster. He said the same thing your wife is saying, he was hoping it would be better.

Honestly, at that point, I think it was about the validation she was giving him, the ego kibbles, making him feel like he was the most handsome, most interesting man on this planet. He enjoyed the attention, and even though the sex was BAD, he was going back for round 2.

It defies logic, but with these waywards, nothing is really logical.

Why are you trying so hard to 'reconcile' with a completely remorseless liar?

What's the payoff in that?

I get it, You're staying for the kids. At least, that's what most BS's tell themselves because they're too paralyzed by fear to make any big decisions or to move on to a healthier life.

Never said I was trying for R...still haven’t decided on D or R..and to be honest I don’t believe I would try very hard in R. I worked long enough on this joke of a marriage. If she wants it she can do all the work for once.

I admittedly haven't followed much of your situation, I have seen posts hit and miss... but do we know she is a non-remorseful liar? At this point, it's sounding like you don't know if she's come completely clean but you don't know she hasn't. I know that's a problem.

But here is where I have trouble - why do you think she stays? You are 18 months into this situation (based on things from this thread) and you sound way more inclined for D if it weren't for kids. If she isn't remorseful, doesn't want the marriage, why would she keep fighting this seemingly losing battle?

I know that we as waywards have to get in the trenches and go through a lot of hard stuff on the path to reconciliation. I am in no way suggesting that my H isn't angry and that we haven't had a hard time of it. But, there are these glimpses of hope and time spent reconnecting. And, I know why I am fighting. What does your wife say about this? It seems like she wants the marriage - do you find her reasons for that to be valid or what you would want them to be?

"The sex wasn't that great" is a lie told by cheaters to minimize the damage they've done. They loved the sex.