SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I’m here. I attempted to make my position clearer. My issue isn’t with requiring the same sex acts your wayward freely offered to an AP. I totally get that. You deserve that from your wife as part of a healthy giving and loving marriage with a hopefully steamy and sexy component. My issue is that when a situation has devolved to a WW being screamed at, called whore or slut, demands to perform right then, right there regardless of the circumstances, through tears and snot, begging and pleading to calm down and talk first, etc., I believe that to be abusive.

I honestly don’t understand how a person can penetrate someone else’s body while calling them names and hurting them and consider that a step in reconciliation or a piece of reconciliation or a condition of reconciliation. It’s incumbent on both people at that point to realize there is nothing to save except a bad, bad horribly disfunctional relationship.

It’s a wayward’s right to say “no - this name calling and threatening doesn’t feel like a step toward rebuilding a good marriage. You’re causing me permanent damage,so no.” In the moment though, they are being threatened with great loss - their life as they know it and they are trying to demonstrate they are remorseful, etc.

As I said above, It’s a betrayed’s right to expect the same sex acts a wayward shared with the AP. In those intense moments I described above though, I only see an angry out of control person deciding he or she wants that sex act even if it is the last nail in the coffin and that behavior doesn’t have jack to do with healthy reconciliation.

So, Discuss sex when both people are calm. Lay out expectations, discuss hard limits (these hard limits should have applied to the AP as well -I get that), but a few VERY few posters were describing screaming at their spouse and calling them whore or slut while trying to penetrate their bodies. I’m not down with that.

Bad people lose the right to be treated like good people until they have earned redemption.

Perhaps. But just because they don't have the right to be treated with the same respect, does not mean that a person with integrity will actually abuse them.

A person who takes pleasure in coercive sex is quite pathetic in my opinion.

Ephimera, no offense I think you are mincing words. If you ask and don't threaten divorce but divorce anyway what is the advantage? You get to put it more politely? Is that it? Because practically it is the same thing either do it or goodbye! Do you really believe in that scenario that your WH doesn't KNOW what is at stake?? If he doesn't know that it is a do or die situation than, no offense, he is dumber than a rock.

In this situation I believe in HONESTY. I'm not going to lie and imply that there would be no consequences to a no.

I would tell her what is about to be put to her. I would not sugar coat it. I would say this is a make or break thing. within 1 week YOU need to ask me in a fun and loving way to do at least 1 of the required items. If you cry or can't convince me that this is what you really want then please sign the papers. I have them now and will have them all week.

Your choice just as doing these things with your AP was a choice. This choice will tell me if attempting to reconcile has a chance. If ANY of my requests seems too great (but how can they be when you did ALL this shit with him) then please just sign here and move out, or if it is easier I'll move out but you still need to sign here.

Have a nice week.

So Ephimera, if a BS says "stop cheating and never contact this person again under any circumstances or else I will D you" is abuse?

I suggest divorce is a viable alternative.

There are to many other women of character and morals capable of the special kind of love and intimacy to stay in a relationship with one that is wayward and reserves "something special" for her and her current or former paramour.

There is no reason to demand anything. Making love is a lot more pleasurable than screwing. Leave that to her and the AP.

IMHO, no one has the right to demand any kind of sex, from anyone, for any reason, ever!

Bad people lose the right to be treated like good people until they have earned redemption.

The construct here isn’t always bad vs. good when a relationship explodes the way I described. It is entirely possible to have two people in a marriage completely capable of behaving badly under great stress and in emotional circumstances. Nobody wears the “good” badge anymore in my opinion.

Yes, the wayward needs to earn any number of things (redemption, trust, sometimes love, all the time ‘like’)...

After the behaviors I describe that are in my opinion, extremely damaging and sexually abusive, I believe the betrayed spouse would need to earn back those things too.

It simply isn’t a healthy, productive way to reconcile if that is the aim. Just my opinion.

Ripped62, The premise of the question was if you had a "remorseful WW but she had done things she didn't want to do with you". For me it would be the only way any reconciliation could be attempted.

You’re correlating two very different situations here and your question isn’t about making sexual demands.

So Ephimera, if a BS says "stop cheating and never contact this person again under any circumstances or else I will D you" is abuse?

The answer to your question is obviously no. A relevant question for you though is this?

If a BS is screaming at his WW to “suck my cock like you did for him slut or tomorrow I’m filing and going for full custody!” and the wayward is pleading for the BS to stop, is that abuse?

Lieswearmedown, I am a very loud person but I don't use that in this situation. The yelling and screaming would be done for now. I would give her a week to get "comfortable" with the idea, if that is not enough time than it is time for my decision which would be to walk. END of chance. You gambled the marriage and now you have lost. Please sign here.

From a therapy-centered, healthy behavior approach, a spouse who is betrayed should disconnect from the wayward not attack. Does it happen that way on dday? Usually no. But that does not make the drama that occurs post-infidelity any less unhealthy and dysfunctional. The betrayed person, experiencing a primal reaction, behaves in a very dramatic manner and can easily cross moral and legal barriers. Emotionally resilient people will handle things better during a crisis; those less equipped are likely to seek revenge, use violence, or act out due to an inability to handle such overwhelming emotions.

The proper and healthy approach is to detach from someone who has betrayed you, not beg, coerce, attack, threaten, bully, manipulate, degrade or harm. It's a fairly straight forward idea. The closer we are to simply removing ourselves and letting the chips fall where they may, maybe allowing the wayward to win us back through their own efforts,  creativity and devotion, the more emotionally healthy and centered we are likely to be overall.

Demanding anything in reconciliation sets up a parent-child dynamic and a power struggle; accepting or even appreciating gestures in reconciliation--if they are freely offered--is more likely to offer long-lasting marital results.

We. Cannot. Control. Anyone. But. Ourselves.

If ths wayward is not enthusiastically offering everything that they are, then don't bother with your demands--the reconciliation is already doomed.

If you go ahead and demand it anyway, then it's only for your equally unhealthy need for payback and degradation--which is what women on these threads sense and vehemently oppose. Your pain does not justify your acting out, it merely demonstrates your lack of emotional resilience. The demands are not coming from a place of reconciliation (which the BS is able to feel is not there) they're coming from a place of anger and entitlement. Unhealthy.

No, this discussion is not just an argument over semantics. If these words all mean the same to someone--'demand' equals 'offer'--then they are choosing to ignore the subtleties of human behavior and emotion. Due to willful denial? For many people, this is the case. If it doesn't fit their preferred narrative, they just won't see it or acknowledge it and they'll write it off as semantics or nonsense. And it is their loss when they do that.

If a wayward isn't passionately offering every part of their body and soul, then don't bother. You're not in R. Walk away. And deal with the emotions on your own. After all, they are ours to own--only ours.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 11:03 PM, September 25th (Tuesday)]

Candyman

Lieswearmedown, I am a very loud person but I don't use that in this situation. The yelling and screaming would be done for now. I would give her a week to get "comfortable" with the idea, if that is not enough time than it is time for my decision which would be to walk. END of chance. You gambled the marriage and now you have lost. Please sign here.

We are agreeing. You are not describing sexual abuse. I presume from the words I see above and the tone I interpret in those words, you are calmly stating what you need in the marriage to reconcile. You are not demeaning her, degrading her, demanding that you get to stick something of yours inside her body when you both know that at that moment, she is not really consenting freely.

I personally believe the getting “comfortable” with it part is problematic too. You deserve a spouse who is more enthusiastic than someone who needs to be merely comfortable with it. I want that kind of relationship where we are enthusiastic about our spouses. I want that for me. For you. For all of us.

Again, for the very few here I would call sexual abusers, I’ll say this: there is no way to get there, no way to get close to it, no way to get even 1000 miles from that good place by losing your temper and demanding that a spouse open her mouth and accept that penis while she’s being reminded she’s a slut, a whore, and proving through words and actions that the sex act is not sexy, not loving, but angry, violent, and punishing. Marriages don’t get better in those circumstances. The damage there is permanent (just like the damage is permanent from the infidelity).

In those cases, let the marriage die. It is irreparable in my opinion.

[This message edited by Lieswearmedown at 12:06 AM, September 26th (Wednesday)]

No, Lies, that’s not abuse. That’s justice. The wayward gives their spouse what they gave their affair partner or they get kicked to the curb. What did they expect would happen upon discovery besides immediate, aggressive divorce? They still have that choice. If you are instead discussing actual physical coercion—that’s different—that would be rape, obviously.

PS: In my view, an unreformed wayward occupies the same moral plane as a rapist. The rapist is willing to destroy the life of another for their own sexual gratification. The cheater is willing to destroy the life of another—specifically, their life partner and children—for sexual gratification. Until a wayward has reinvented themself to be reformed cheater, they should expect rather poor treatment from all concerned.

[This message edited by PlanC at 11:07 PM, September 25th (Tuesday)]

I've seen that other thread on this topic and...yeesh. Bodily autonomy is important. If the WS comes to the conclusion that they want to participate in X activity with the BS through the reconciliation process (and beyond) that's on thing. It's another to coerce someone under threat of divorce to participate. If lack of activity X is truly the tipping point for the BS, they have every right to divorce.

I just never understood why a sex act in and of itself means so much. Did the couple discuss engaging in the act prior to DD? Was it a point of contention before discovery? Or is it now being used to make things "even"? Despite their obvious issues WW's still deserve some right to decide their sexual autonomy and to feel safe. If they only wanted to do X activity with AP due to circumstancial reasons ("the bedding at this holiday inn are actually clean!") then feeling forced to with the BS could only serve to make them feel humiliation. And that's not what anyone wants in reconciliation.

If the WW is crying bc she doesn't want to do for her BH what she did for her AP, then she obviously:

- doesn't love her BH

- cares more for her AP than her BH

- prefers sex with her AP over her BH

- is only staying with her BH for selfish reasons that have nothing to do with love (security, image, AP won't take her/Plan B, etc)

It's another to coerce someone under threat of divorce to participate.

So should the WW not even be given the option to start doing it to avoid D, if D is not what the WW wants?

PlanC,

I’ve been very clear. If you calmly state your conditions for reconciliation and you aren’t getting what you need to reconcile, go. Go. Go. Go. Tell your wayward, It is a condition of reconciliation. No problem with that.

That said, if you think justice includes no control over your emotions and the agreement to reconcile offers the BS free license to demean and degrade for some arbitrary period of time only know to the BS like the scenarios I’ve described, that is sexual abuse and there is no free pass for that. It won’t foster reconciliation. It’s just damage. That’s all it is. Permanent damage.

The wayward in that case hopefully can see that the marriage is beyond repair. She may not be a person capable of reconciliation for a variety of reasons, including an unwillingness to offer freely the same sexual acts she offered to her AP.

However, if she’s dealing with a betrayed spouse who is also not capable of true reconciliation as evidenced by demeaning, degrading, angry, and punishing sex as a means to exercise power, I’d help her pack her bags, encourage her to continue in IC to consider 1. What made her behave so faithlessly in her marriage 2. What made her behave so dishonestly and lacking in character to begin with and 3. Perhaps suggest she give some thought to what her boundaries should be with every man with whom she ever comes in contact.

Lies, we probably do not disagree too much, then.

I have a question for those in the “do this sexual act or I divorce you” camp.

Flip it. What if it involved a WH and not a WW. And the BW said “Since you fucked that slut, I’m going to put on this strap-on. Bend over and grab your ankles. Or, I call my lawyer and it’s D and I’ll take half your assets, your pension, the house and full custody of the kids. But I’ll be kind and give you one week to get comfortable with having this 12 inch strap-on shoved up your ass.”

Abuse or not?

Ephimera, no offense I think you are mincing words. If you ask and don't threaten divorce but divorce anyway what is the advantage? You get to put it more politely? Is that it? Because practically it is the same thing either do it or goodbye! Do you really believe in that scenario that your WH doesn't KNOW what is at stake?? If he doesn't know that it is a do or die situation than, no offense, he is dumber than a rock.

First of all Candyman, you don't get to insult my husband. Starting a sentence with 'no offense' does not remove the offense.

Second, 'asking' and 'demanding with consequences' are not the same thing. How many stories have you come across of waywards who don't stop contact with OWs, even after repeated pleadings by their BSs, until divorce is threatened? To me, that is pointless. Because the WSs are doing what they are asked to do not out of love for the BS, but for the fear of consequences for themselves. I wouldn't want that anyway. In a relationship, I don't want anything that is not given to me freely and happily.

Ephimera, if a BS says "stop cheating and never contact this person again under any circumstances or else I will D you" is abuse?

No, it is not abuse. But it is pointless unless you are desperate or playing a power game. I would simply ask a WS to stop cheating... not because of a threat of divorce, or because they may have financial consequences... but simply because it is the right thing to do.

If people cant do something willingly, without threat of consequences, then they are doing it for the wrong reasons anyway.