SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Poppy704, did you miss this post on page 2? This is how I would have put it to my x.

I would tell her what is about to be asked of her. I would not sugar coat it. I would say this is a make or break thing. within 1 week YOU need to ask me in a fun and loving way to do at least 1 of the required items. If you cry or can't convince me that this is what you really want then please sign the papers. I have them now and will have them all week.

Your choice just as doing these things with your AP was a choice. This choice will tell me if attempting to reconcile has a chance. If ANY of my requests seems too great (but how can they be when you did ALL this shit with him) then please just sign here and move out, or if it is easier I'll move out but you still need to sign here.

The

”I don’t care if it hurts”.

was in response that excuse many BW's have used to defend the "I'm NOT going to do this" attitude that we sometimes get. At that point in time if she is TRYING then I will help in any way she would like.

What I will not accept is a NO I won't because it will hurt, because it is the type of effort which I see as no effort at all!

Just want to correct the evil impression that you seem to have of me.

JMO YMMV

RideItOut, Sorry, I'm not sure how to copy from another post and I'm on a tablet so apologies if post is a bit all over the place.

As I mentioned in my post I felt it was the language of the narrative that was triggering. Do you honestly think we would have gotten to this many pages in this thread if the opening post had been put in terms such as those?

Your second paragraph however I have to disagree with, strongly. I wouldn't say a lot of BWs stop having sex with their WHs to punish them. IMO a lot of it comes down to an almost visceral reaction to having to be at your most vulnerable with the person you trusted the most and then who betrayed you the most, this is sometimes accompanied by horrific mind movies or even worse memories if you've seen videos or pics. Of course this is just my opinion but perhaps another BS could give an objective view.

IMO a lot of it comes down to an almost visceral reaction to having to be at your most vulnerable with the person you trusted the most and then who betrayed you the most, this is sometimes accompanied by horrific mind movies or even worse memories if you've seen videos or pics. Of course this is just my opinion but perhaps another BS could give an objective view.

I had the same reaction (still do sometimes). But putting my wife into celibacy would be more a punishment to me than to her. I want it more than her, so it wouldn't make any sense to me to not have sex with her either as punishment or because of my discomfort thinking about what she did with OM. A lot of men have trouble performing after d-day, I did not, but, if I couldn't; I probably would have D'ed, just because losing that part of myself would have been too much for me.

What’s hard for me to understand: If your significant other wanted to perform “x” sex act with AP, but made no initiative or expressed no desire, except for residual guilt, to perform it with you, how does performing “x” sex act with your WW feel good or accomplished?

I mean if she wanted to have anal with him but never expressed a desire to perform it with me, the writing is on the wall. It has nothing to do with anything but SHE’S NOT THAT INTO IT WITH ME. And that’s ok; cool, I at least have the truth. I don’t need to essentially rape her to figure that one out. Jesus Christ. If you can’t live with it—move on.

This thread is starting to seriously get creepy. People, men or women, are not property. Vows don’t equal title to chattel. I’ve been betrayed but I’m not entitled. If I don’t like what my WW offers, the next step is divorce. She doesn’t owe me sex; she nor her love are my property.

[This message edited by KingRat at 12:45 AM, September 30th (Sunday)]

I agree with you King Rat. If my wife gave a sex act that I wanted to her AP but wouldn't enthusiastically give it to me I would divorce her.

[This message edited by SweetCreamPie at 1:40 AM, September 30th (Sunday)]

What KingRat said. I think the language of entitlement going on here is what's making some of this discussion creepy. As people who have been betrayed, we all have felt that need to reclaim control and what's "ours". But (for me) the line stops at someone else's body/desires.

If I'd gone an entire relationship asking for something from my SO, that they did not want to do with me. And then they gave that to someone else? That horse is out the barn. It's not coming back, if you get what I mean. Whatever was experienced during the affair is just that. Painful behaviors that, if in reconciliation, is in the past. Reconciliation means building communication, trust, and love again. If crazy sex act X occurred during this reconciliation, great! But if crazy sex act occurred just because the WW wanted to "prove" willingness to fully reconcile, I'd still feel that they didn't want to do X with me, and just wanted to shut me up to get to the next stage.

I have read every post on this web site in the last several days.

One of the posts said that WSs lose the right to say no to requests for sexual frequency from their BS after they have an affair. I am not sure if this is true or not but I would be pretty hurt if my wife did not reject requests for frequency from her AP but did reject my requests.

This topic is more or less the same thing. It is about respect and hurt feelings.

[This message edited by SweetCreamPie at 1:47 AM, September 30th (Sunday)]

For the most part, most here agree. The sticking points are to make it a condition of R. Demanding instead of requesting. But the goal is the same.

1. BH: I requesting this.

WW: Well I don't want to.

Divorce.

2. BH: Let's discuss our needs. I've always wanted x, y, z. I know you did with AP. I want to with you.

WW: I felt do used and disgusted doing that with AP. I don't want to do that anymore.

BH: I don't know if I can continue with the M.

WW: If I have too then I don't know either.

Divorce.

3. Bh: You did that with him. You will do that with me or get out.

Divorce.

4. WW: I will never do that again. If you ask then I'm gone.

Divorce.

Here are my questions.

1. Is it wrong to even ask?

2. Why should it not be one of the conditions for R?

3. What reason a WS could give that is accepable For giving to AP but denying BS? Or simply saying no enough?

Lastly, you have two people that truly love each other. She refuses to do certain acts that she did with AP. But she loves her BH and does everything else and more. He as to live with her knowing he will never do x,y, z. EVER. But she has with another man freely and willingly. What would you say to him to help him accept this situation?

[This message edited by WilliamM at 2:18 AM, September 30th (Sunday)]

Here are my questions.

1. Is it wrong to even ask?

2. Why should it not be one of the conditions for R?

William, from what I've seen here, it's wrong to even object to your W having an affair. And if you get lucky enough for her to choose you bc her bf turns out to be a tool, then you shouldn't even ask her to ever have sex. Instead, you should help her find a new, better AP, one that she can get really freaky with. Us BHes are just supposed to be their wallet and emotional tampons.

[This message edited by GoldenR at 3:15 AM, September 30th (Sunday)]

She refuses to do certain acts that she did with AP. But she loves her BH and does everything else and more. He as to live with her knowing he will never do x,y, z. EVER. But she has with another man freely and willingly. What would you say to him to help him accept this situation?

I would tell him to divorce.

And that's really the rub here, as you laid out well in your scenarios William; they all lead to divorce. And that is OK; it's kind of like someone saying "Well, I do love you, but I really enjoy having sex with my AP too and I'm not going to stop, so do what you have to do". And "what you have to do" is D, because, of course, none of us would expect someone to live under those terms of marriage (husband keeps sleeping with the AP, for example).

The thing that rubs me the wrong way is that we don't seem to all draw that conclusion for this issue. If we all agree; anal for AP, not for H is basically the same as "I'm going to keep seeing the AP for BJ's because she is so good at it, but I really do love you and would like to stay in the marriage" then yes, of course, you can't make your wife give you anal any more than you can make your husband stop getting BJ's down the street from his AP. But you need to divorce him/her. Because they are not safe/good partners and they are not in R, or not in what I would consider R. Maybe it does work for some people, just like open marriages work for some, but to me, neither of those situations would be "getting out of infidelity", both are "learning to live with infidelity".

What I take strong issue with is the "well, that's OK, her body her choice" comments that always seem to come up around this particular issue. Imagine if I, and a lot of other men, were posting to a BW who's husband who wouldn't stop going down the road for BJ's and said things like "Well, he's just hornier than you, you have to learn to accept it" and "Is he a good man otherwise" or "He's broken, you have to let him work through his FOO". And yes, I'm well aware those are things that were said to women 50 years ago when men cheated, it's just how "men are" and it was to be accepted/tolerated by women. But it's not that way anymore, and I think that any man saying that here would be ripped to shreds by other men, myself included, and might even wind up banned from the site (rightfully so). Because that advice is toxic to R. Sure, the man in that situation would be thrilled to get that advice; wow, I get to have my cake and eat it too, awesome, right? Except that's "great advice" for the man comes entirely at the expense of his wife, her mental health and her enjoyment of her marriage. I feel like that's exactly what we're doing here to men, telling them to accept something that's totally unacceptable in a married relationship and then going further and saying things like "maybe she was forced" and "it's her FOO" to make it even more unassailable as the right/just answer.

IMHO, the right advice here is this. Absolutely, you're free to keep the anal sex between you and the AP, that is your choice. Just like the WH is free to stop on lunch breaks and get BJs. But the advice I'd give to either BS is the same, you need to get a divorce. The only difference is, for the BH, it's hard to even understand if he's allowed to talk about the things he needs/wants in the relationship without it being considered "rapey", so, perhaps the best advice is, wait 3 months, see if it happens, if not, divorce. But the answer in both cases, if the H doesn't stop getting BJs, or the W doesn't offer the "good stuff" sexually is the same. Get a divorce.

1. Is it wrong to even ask?

2. Why should it not be one of the conditions for R?

3. What reason a WS could give that is accepable For giving to AP but denying BS? Or simply saying no enough?

1. IMHO, you shouldn't have to ask, because, if you do, it slips into the "forced" category. So, yes, I'd say it's wrong to ask, the WS has to take it upon themselves to do whatever it is that they did with the AP that the BS would like to have.

2. Because making it a condition of R makes is forced. If it's important to you and it hasn't happened organically in some period of time, call it 6 months after d-day, initiate a divorce.

3. He/she forced me to (raped me) is the only answer that would be acceptable to me. However, if a WS claimed this to me, there better be strong evidence that this was the case and be prepared to tell the story to the police as the next step. The "well, I went down on her but if felt forced because if I didn't she was going to stop seeing me" does not come close to meeting the standard for "forced" that I would require.

So, if want to generalize this down to a set of rules, this is what I've come up with..

1) You are allowed to ask what your WS and AP did sexually as part of discovery.

2) You are allowed to express your desire, upon hearing that list, to have those experiences with your WS.

3) The BS should then, after expressing that desire a single time, wait for the WS to initiate those activities with the BS (be it anal sex or a horse drawn carriage ride in NY).

4) If the WS has not initiated those actions in a period of time, arbitrarily defined as 6 months from d-day, if the request is non-sexual, it shall be restated as a requirement for R. If it is sexual, at this point, it is incumbent on the BS to initiate a divorce or accept that those actions are only for WS/AP and learn to live with it; the request shall not be restated and shall not be phrased as a requirement for R.

Now, of course, the right answer isn't that. It's blindingly clear what the right answer is, and I feel like we're all being intentionally obtuse dancing around it. The right answer, IMHO, is that if you did anything in your A that you think your BS would enjoy or find valuable, you should do it and more with them. And if you really don't want to, then you should be the one to initiate the divorce and provide your BS with a very agreeable settlement so that they can go find someone who wants to be that person with them. The person who takes them on horse drawn carriage rides or the person who can't wait to have anal sex with them, it matters not what it is, at least not in my book.

Hello, everyone. I've been gone from this site for quite sometime, but I decided to pitch in as I've recently been looking at threads and stumbled on this one. My H and I have discussed many things concerned here and I'd just like to say this:

As a WW, I have absolutely no problem with meeting any demands my H makes in order for R to be on the table, this includes sexual acts that were denied to him but given freely to the AP.

I will be honest and say that in the beginning I was not comfortable doing those things because yes, since I was disgusted by the AP the disgust was associated with my A. I did not want to relieve those acts because I wanted to put the A behind me and never think about it again. So I said no, and my H accepted my answer. He did not force himself on me. It was my body and he would never make me do something I did not want to.

My way of thinking (of sex), above the A, nearly cost me the M I so desperately wanted to save. D had always been on the table and if I wasn't willing to show my H that he was my number one priority in EVERYTHING concerning our M, then why should he stick with someone that would always make him feel second place?

I did not understand in the beginning why sex was the biggest issue post A in our M from H, aside from other issues. It was through research that I realised that I literally destroyed our sex life and his confidence as a man by showing him through my actions that even if I was disgusted by AP and the A, I still preferred (through my actions) AP and A sex. Words are meaningless as a WW. I've apologised, promised him the world, promised to be everything he desired in a safe partner but I deny him simple requests for R. My words mean shit, and my actions don't back them up, so why should I get R then?

It was through talks that I realised that my fear wasn't necessarily doing those sexual acts, but feeling the negative emotions those acts could evoke in me.The feeling of revolution was my biggest issue not the sex itself. But how would I know it would be like that unless I actually tried? And to clarify something, my H never, ever wanted to punish me with sex. He wanted to feel like I put our M first, that's why he never pushed me when I refused.

By the time I resolved that I was finally ready to have sex with my H, he wanted nothing to do with me. He had given up trying to make me understand why this was important to him. D train was rolling and every piece of progress we made together was trashed. It was no longer about thinking of what I wanted anymore. It was about making sure he knew that I heard his concerns and I wanted to address them.

I started sexually advancing on him repeatedly. Everytime I was met with fierce rejection. He thought it was a manipulation tactic. Why wouldn't he actually? But I did not give up or relent. My head was out of my ass and I could see clearly this was something we needed to overcome together to get somewhere.

When we finally had sex, it was passionate and somewhat frustration on his side. We did everything we could think of that night. We didn't hug or cuddle. He immediately left after we were done. He was still very hurt, angry and confused, so I understood his response. I still did not want to give up. Even though I felt used and tossed aside, I did not want to give up on my H.

We started having sex many times, nothing was off-limits to him, and if it was too uncomfortable for either of us, we had a safe word put in place. It took a long time, but sex became intimate again. It became loving and adventurous and all that magical stuff. Now, from what he's told me, he doesn't think much about the sex I had with AP anymore. He's still somewhat vexed that AP beat him to the punch but he has told me that I've shown him in many ways that he and the M are more important than AP and he believes that now more than ever.

So, my take away from this. If the BH finds a subject important to him in order to R with a cheating WW, and the WW does not see it the same way, it is best for the BH to walk away. Don't fight your WWs on this. Just walk away. And to WWs, if the demands made by a BH are too harsh, then walk away. R is hard, it's filled with anger, frustration, loathing, bitterness and resentment, but there's also love, understanding, respect, growth.

It has been worth it giving all of me to my H. It might not be for some and there is a fine line of tolerating abuse from a BH. I do not see this as abuse, however, unless the demands are physically forced on a WW. A WW still has a choice and so does a BH.

All IMHO

MrsSouthAfrica, you can drop the mic now and walk off the stage. Game, set, and match.

MrsSouthAfrica, Thank You.

1. Is it wrong to even ask?

How else can you make the desire known?

But I think it's incumbent on the requester to ask for something that's a real solution. In too many posts about this, I'd bet my house that it isn't.

2. Why should it not be one of the conditions for R?

If it feeds a Drama Triangle, it should not be a requirement for R.

3. What reason a WS could give that is accepable For giving to AP but denying BS? Or simply saying no enough?

Well, my W said, 'I did it because I was coerced. I'll do it for you if you insist, but it will be under coercion.'

Lastly, you have two people that truly love each other. She refuses to do certain acts that she did with AP. But she loves her BH and does everything else and more. He as to live with her knowing he will never do x,y, z. EVER. But she has with another man freely and willingly. What would you say to him to help him accept this situation?

I'd say,

'I don't see how any of us can get everything we want, and part of life is choosing what to give up.

Your WS's A was not about you. What your WS did was not about you. Your WS's refusal to do something is not about you.

You're free to choose D or R. Pick the one that looks to you like it will give a better life. If you pick well, you will generate messages reminding you of what you gave up. When that happens, I recommend reminding yourself of what you got.

Etc., etc., etc..'

This then is how I see it. If AP coerced my wife, then she was forced. If she was forced, she was assaulted. U would require her to report it.

But I think it's incumbent on the requester to ask for something that's a real solution. In too many posts about this, I'd bet my house that it isn't.

How are you supposed to know until you do it? Is demanding a timeline a "real solution"? It helped for me, but it wasn't the cure all. Neither would anal sex on demand be a cure all, I suspect all the anal in the world with a wife who was still cheating wouldn't fix the a single posters relationship here. But does it help? Is it crucial to continue R? I'd answer those "yes, almost always" and "yes, usually" respectively.

Your WS's refusal to do something is not about you.

I'd bet my life that's not always true. In fact, I'd be willing to risk a lot of money and say "most of the time, it IS about you". Let's take a look at my history, and I'm pretty sure others will have stories like this; but there are women in my past who I "held things back" from. The most significant is that I would not give them oral sex, but there are other things too that I would not give them, but would give other women. And let me tell you, it was most assuredly "about them". I just didn't feel attracted enough to them, didn't like them enough, thought they were "dirty" (IE, slept with lots of guys). But I enjoyed that act, I always have, but wouldn't do it with some women because I didn't feel that way about THEM, not because I didn't enjoy the act. I wouldn't have enjoyed it with them, put another women in their place (IE, my wife) and I love that particular act (and lots of others that were or would be off limits for women I don't feel as strongly about). I can believe "it's not ALWAYS about you", but I absolutely do not believe "it's not about you" as a blanket statement, because, experience tells me, it is about me, much of the time, when a woman rejects something with me but does it with another man.

Well, my W said, 'I did it because I was coerced. I'll do it for you if you insist, but it will be under coercion.'

I agree with this, but as I said in another post, I'd need REALLY strong evidence that this was true. Like, you did it and never saw him again. Or you did it repeatedly, but had e-mails from him threatening to expose nude pictures of you if you didn't. "Anal or I'm moving on to the next AP" is not coercion, that's just a decision that someone made. Real coercion is rare in an A; it does happen, but it's not common.

This then is how I see it. If AP coerced my wife, then she was forced. If she was forced, she was assaulted.

Exactly. That's an entirely different situation, and no, if my wife was raped by her AP anally, I would NEVER dream of asking or requesting her to do that with me. But if she did it with the AP because "he said he'd leave me if I didn't" well.. That shows me what he was worth to you, and you not doing it with me shows me what I'm worth to you. That's no coercion, that's a freely entered decision.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 8:39 AM, September 30th (Sunday)]

Mrs. South Africa, that was a brave and helpful post.

Thank you MrsSouthAfrica. You have just answered about 90% of the questions and doubts on this post. Most men when cheated on sexually takes a big hit on their sexual confidence and self esteem. To say no to your husband on anything you said yes to with your AP, blatantly tells your husband you regard him less and love him less than your AP. You can tell him and tell him and tell him that it isn't true but he will never believe you. How many times has a BS been told to watch the actions of the WS and not their words. Many WS will say that it is abuse and punishment when in reality, most of the time, it's a test by the BS to determine what they consider is the true feeling of the WS. I do wish you well.