SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Reading this thread, it's a lot like a reframed/repackaged version of the running debate between my fWWife and I regarding what compelled her.

And I would phrase it, "what compelled her to so willfully and determinedly destroy me and our marriage and family in so many times and ways during her multiple and ongoing 'self-christenings' that she invited any other men but myself to officiate for her to erase my name out of her consciousness, and make a very antithetical one for herself in its place."

I don't expect that her particular shoe or my very graphic assertions there fits most other waywards on this forum, but then again, most of y'all didn't ALSO abandon your family multiple times and have three deaths involved to really spice up and fuel up your own personal Party (Mardi) Gras that you threw for yourself in response to yours and your spouse's grief or repression and denial thereof.

When I read this thread, I picture one of those women that have their helpless, dependent children in the backseat of the car trusting the parent-driver to carefully and competently take them down the road without malice or neglect to them or herself or to others' safety on the road.

But I see the woman instead applying her mascara using the rear view mirror as she's doing 70mph in bumper-to-bumper traffic and then just careens thru the pylons and all other warnings and the "bridge out" signs as if it's all just piles of leaves that are fun to just drive through.

From my standpoint, the whole of society and the world all around her is held in a kind of contempt, particularly her husband she ran over and drug along underneath the car while she worried about what station the radio was set to and the awful noise that seemed to accompany the music that was blaring.

But from HER standpoint, she was just trying to look professional enough to suit her taste as she tries to keep her work commitments on the way to taking little Johnny and baby Michelle to day care. Oh,...and also maybe doing a little bit of technically illegal crack (extra martial EA & sex) to help her cope with the stresses of her life she didn't fully realize she was signing up for when she said her vows at the altar.

My wife literally did specifically defy my explicit warnings regarding associating with her stalking, obsessive former H.S. wannabe suitor.

And a year later after false R, she did a very similar thing to me with her high PA risk evenings waitressing job she took to supplement her banking related day job.

I felt dehumanized for a number a reasons but she has maintained for decades now that she was merely looking at HERSELF in the mirror instead of watching the road or her vows and agreements with me, or any of the numerous screaming red flags or my feelings and literal protests along the way.

[This message edited by Cephastion at 8:47 AM, February 5th (Tuesday)]

Cephastion - I think you make a valid point, and one that I walked away from this thread totally getting:

We may not have intended to dehumanize, but the effect was the same as if we had. Does that sum it up? I totally get that...and I accept that having affair is abuse, which is why it would make sense someone who was abused would feel that way.

I agree dehumanized is a very good word for it. It felt like I just didn’t matter. Like I was invisible.

I have never felt so inconsequential.

I have to agree 100% with this. Becoming a non factor in your relationship is dehumanizing. The problem is during the A we don't know where it is coming from.

After Dday we know why we were treated that way and it hurts even more. In cases were the WS mourns the A it is a thousand times worse.

I think that this initial feeling of being discarded is why a lot of BS treat the WS the same way after Dday. In the absence of empathy and remorse the go to is treating the WS how the BS feels they were treated.

To this day I look back and I cringe at what I endured. It feels like a pyrrhic victory on some days.

I didn’t think about BH other than to avoid getting caught. I didn’t demonize him at all. I wanted more attention and felt entitled to it. Had nothing to do with BH.

At first my WH said this, but now he's changed is mind. He believes that he absolutely dehumanized me and "us" to make our life into something that it wasn't. He has done it so much and for so long (over a year and a half) even now he has trouble talking about us in a positive way. Just last night he said to me "my feelings about us aren't as bad as they used to be" and I lost it. Had he said "I feel BETTER about us than I used to" it would have had a totally different impact even though it really is basically saying the same thing. The problem is that he spent so long demonizing me and us that he struggles now to take it out of that context.

I think if I asked him if dehumanizing is the right term he would likely agree.

I'm not a WS, but I imagine that at some level any WS that is not a sociopath must realize that what they are doing is wrong. A sign of this is that they keep their relationship with their AP a secret.

So - if a WS knows their affair is wrong, and yet they continue on with it, they must form a reason for it.

In my WW's case, she enlarged my faults in her mind, to the point where I was abusive. She became a victim, and as such could justify her actions. That allowed her to feel ok about herself.

On good days, I simply did not matter. On bad days, I was the villain - an evil and abusive husband that deserved the pain of betrayal.

It's an apt term from the BS perspective.

And I suspect that no one WANTS to dehumanize another (and that may even include the serial killers, I dunno).

Webster's defines "dehumanize" as: to deprive of human qualities, personality, or spirit. Another definition is to treat someone as if they are not a human being.

Another: to deprive of human qualities or attributes divest of individuality:

The very act of an A deprives the BS of their human qualities, personality and spirit.

Why?

Because BSs simply DO NOT MATTER in the WS's choice to have an A. We see myriad words and phrases to describe this. Some may say the BS was "inconsequential", others may say "I didn't think of" my BS. Most (if not all) of those who provide amazing contributions on SI and who seem to "get it" say things like they "did not care" about their BS (or did not care in the way they believe(d) a spouse should). Personally, the semantics on that front make no difference. It seems pretty universal that the BS does not matter to the WS in the midst of an A. Our feelings, our souls, our SPIRIT, our anything - don't seem to register to a WS.

My WH has told me this: He spent MONTHS between 1st kiss and 1st sex doing a "risk analysis", that NEVER - not even for a second - included thinking of his wife or his family. It consisted SOLELY of whether he would get caught.

If that kind of thinking - if a spouse's complete irrelevance and inconsequentiality (is that a word?) - is not dehumanizing... what is?

We may not have intended to dehumanize, but the effect was the same as if we had.

More accurately, you may not have have set out to dehumanize, but you still did.

^^^^^^^^

Yes, Firenze.

I think the point has been aptly made that dehumanizing is what the WS does to the BS when they choose to enter an affair. Where the disconnect seems to be here is the minimizing of the fact that the BS is dehumanized because the WS is not taking full ownership of the act. Using phrases like, I did not intend, that was not how I was thinking or feeling, the effect was, etc… All minimize what has been done to the BS.

Own the fact that you dehumanized your BS without minimizing, your BS will appreciate it being acknowledged even while it will still hurt immensely. This is where healing can happen.

Yearsgoneby~

I think the point has been aptly made that dehumanizing is what the WS does to the BS when they choose to enter an affair. Where the disconnect seems to be here is the minimizing of the fact that the BS is dehumanized because the WS is not taking full ownership of the act. Using phrases like, I did not intend, that was not how I was thinking or feeling, the effect was, etc… All minimize what has been done to the BS.

Own the fact that you dehumanized your BS without minimizing, your BS will appreciate it being acknowledged even while it will still hurt immensely. This is where healing can happen.

I understand what you are saying. I abused my husband by having an affair, I accept full responsibility for that. I understand now if you are abusing someone you must dehumanize them. I have said that in every single post I have made on this thread.

Saying I was not aware of dehumanizing him at the time it is just the truth because I would not have known to put that word with it. In fact, until this post was made I would not have associated the word correctly. The connotation that word has to me is that I think about serial murders out torturing animals as practice for the dehumanizing of people. A soul-less evil individual that has no humanity or place in society. And I can accept that maybe that is what I was while having an affair.

I knew I disregarded him. I abused him. I knew that what I did was wrong, that it caused him unimaginable pain. I knew that he didn't deserve it and that I was very callous in my actions. I understood that I made it as if nothing having to do with him mattered. I simply didn't know to associate it with the word.

It's not to minimize what I did, but my efforts to understand it even differently once this post was made. I have done nothing but take on as much responsibility and empathy as I can, I don't shy from it. From my perspective, every time you think you understand the pain you doled out you then understand it on a different level. Get another perspective on it. This is what this post was for me.

Saying I was not aware of dehumanizing him at the time it is just the truth because I would not have known to put that word with it. In fact, until this post was made I would not have associated the word correctly.--Hikingout

It's not to minimize what I did, but my efforts to understand it even differently once this post was made. I have done nothing but take on as much responsibility and empathy as I can, I don't shy from it. From my perspective, every time you think you understand the pain you doled out you then understand it on a different level. Get another perspective on it. This is what this post was for me.--Hikingout

Own the fact that you dehumanized your BS without minimizing, your BS will appreciate it being acknowledged even while it will still hurt immensely. This is where healing can happen.

Yearsgoneby~

We have to be careful... ALL of us... Not to dehumanize a remorseful ex-wayward or mistake their honesty about their own past as grounds for minimizing or dismissing what and who they are in the PRESENT.

I'm not saying that you did or are doing this, Yearsgoneby, but I know that I've seen myself and other very hurt betrayeds do this very thing or at least be VERY tempted to where waywards and other offenders are concerned.

They say an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Healing also can be greatly helped by a remorseful wayward listening and changing and BETTER helping their BS as well. Clearly, hikingout is doing just that.

[This message edited by Cephastion at 1:54 PM, February 6th (Wednesday)]

I didn't use the exact word, but I did tell my WH that he didn't think of me as a real woman with real feelings. 8 months post dday he made a comment while answering my questions about the A that he would have ended it if his friend (who had had a relationship with his AP prior to their A) and his AP wanted each other. He seemed to be indicating to me that the A wasn't that important to him, that he was okay fine with giving her up. He said this to me after 8 months of telling me how sorry he was and how much he loved me. When I asked him why he considered his friend's feelings and his AP's feelings in his decision, but not mine, he seemed confused.

I asked him if he ever considered telling me he wanted an open marriage, so I could have the opportunity to chase the thrill of new love too. Of course not.

I was just an object, a prop in the play that was his life. He absolutely dehumanized me.

[This message edited by Sadwife53 at 3:31 PM, February 6th (Wednesday)]

That's how I felt when my ex starting cheating. I attributed it to his father's death. I thought his mood had changed and that's why he was treating me with distain. Nope. Just him cheating.

Cephastion,

I have felt since very early on that a WS’s shock when they begin the process of getting it, is akin to what a BS goes through on D-day. Similarly, as the journey of discovery continues for a BS and they are continually sucker punched in the gut over and over again, the same happens for the WS as they begin to allow themselves to see the truth of what they have done. I know that looking at himself in the mirror each day was extremely difficult for my husband. He said, he needed to remind himself of what he had done and who he was. A big part of healing in a reconciliation is feeling each other’s pain. This discussion on the dehumanization of the BS is such a good opportunity for a WS to do just that with their BS.

Who the WS is in the present holds a lot of sway. I used to keep a list of the things my husband had done post-infidelity to help me cope. I kept that list for years. No matter how important the present is, and as I said it is important, the past cannot be let go of for several years at least. Both must be acknowledge.

Yearsgoneby~

[This message edited by Yearsgoneby at 8:13 PM, February 6th (Wednesday)]