SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Not a fan. I just can't relate to her definition of shame. I think she lets go of a lot of personal accountability in that department so a person can stop focusing on working through that in order to live with themselves. She gives and excuse "we are human with flaws" that people can latch on to. I don't like excuses. I want to be better than that. Just human. Just human with excuses got me here in the first place. To me that is just burying it and telling them it is okay to do so. I support her vulnerability stuff, but that really isn't an original idea. Most self help books and many others focus on standing alone and being vulnerable at the same time.

@Zugzwang

Have you read her books at all?

I'm just curious what you're basing your opinion on.

Of course it isn't going to be for everyone especially if you don't have work to do in that area.

I'm not so sure that I deal with shame, not on a daily basis. But it does find me from time to time, so in that sense I may or may not get much from her perspective, a renowned multi degree researcher on shame and trail blazing it, so I tend to think she has a pretty good idea what shame is and what it isn't. I have very little knowledge what her take is on shame anyway so I cannot add much there. I don't even know what her definition of shame is.

But it's the vulnerability that I need help with and I think it is there that pulls the shame to the surface. I think my shameful feelings come from what will *person* think if I am that honest, that vulnerable, that authentic. And then why am I that worried about it anyway.

But you know I don't think it's an excuse by itself to say "humans are flawed" that is a fact. It's up to each individual to own their shit and move past that as an excuse.

foreverlabled I just used that as an excuse for my affair.

I am only human

. There just needs to be more to it. Yes, I am only human. I can therefor try my best to be more than that. Otherwise, I am only a mammal. That is the way I accept myself. I am not just some flawed human. I am a flawed human that still has a drive to go beyond being flawed.

No, I read enough in reviews to know I didn't subscribe to her ideals about shame and had no desire to read more. IMO there are different types of shame. There is nothing wrong to me with shame born of deserved guilt when you hurt someone else. I am not talking about shame born of some parents/coach expectation of meeting some goal. Or public shaming of those OW sites. I am talking about personal shame. Shame between perpetrator and victim. I think if people like myself had learned how to cope with shame early on instead of running or being stuck- I wouldn't have gotten here to begin with. Well at least one aspect of it. Healthy shame is very important.

Zugzwang -

I did read her books. I don't think she does the rugsweeping thing that you think.

What she is talking about is really understanding your deepest motivations for something. A lot of our bad behaviors come from feeling like we are not good enough. That underlying shame that keeps us from feeling total joy and self worth. That keeps us from being authentic in our relationships, and keeps us from being vulnerable to others.

While I agree with foreverlabeled that you may not have work to do in that area, I do think you have made a false assumption about the premise of where she is going with shame. Self-acceptance, Self-worth, and self-love is how we are brave with our life. Most of the things that a cheater does is out of fear and shame, as do alcoholics, drug addicts, gamblers, people who are generally acting out in destructive ways. It's not treating the things that they did wrong by excusing them, it's about treating the root problems that causes them. It's a different lens than what you are getting from it in reading reviews.

And, I also agree, she is not for everyone - but her books were life changing for me in understanding that the reason I was being so perfectionist and over the top with acts of service with people in my family is that shame was riding shotgun. I did not feel worthy of love without earning it. There is a lot of really good information in her topics and she is actually a scientist and researcher rather than a self help guru.

Anyway, not really looking to change your mind but I don't want what you said to hinder someone else from reading her. She helped me tremendously not only see the root of my issues but to really help me to reconstruct what I wanted to be in my marriage.

@Zugzwang

No, I read enough in reviews to know I didn't subscribe to her ideals about shame and had no desire to read more.

If you are going to make judgments and/or express opinions on a subject don't you feel it would be wise to read the material, so you can make a more informed and educated appraisal of it?

I think had you humbled yourself enough to read her books, you would see that your assumptions re: her take on "accountability" are not actually based in fact.

Seconding hikingout, in that I'm not looking to change your mind. You come across as pretty rigid in your thinking anyway. I would just hate to see someone who could truly benefit from her books/talks, do just what you've done, and reject it outright based on someone else's opinion.

I think had you humbled yourself enough to read her books, you would see that your assumptions re: her take on "accountability" are not actually based in fact.

I approach things from a more scientific POV. It isn't about being humble. It is about being comfortable with shame and knowing it is needed. It is normal. It is natural. It is a good thing if you know how to cope with it. I didn't in the past. I still viewed it as a good thing though. Not an enemy. I know how to work with it now. I choose not to avoid it or see it is as bad or wrong. It is the coping mech that is wrong. Not the shame.

I define shame as the intensely painful feeling or experience of believing that we are flawed and therefore unworthy of love and belonging – something we've experienced, done, or failed to do makes us unworthy of connection

I disagree with this statement. I don't feel it is shame that keeps us unworthy of connection. Shame comes from a guilty action for me. What would make me feel unworthy isn't shame. It is a lack of self confidence.

I don't believe shame is helpful or productive.

Shame when earned through guilt can be helpful and productive. It was for me. It was what lead me to change. Sorry. I just disagree with those two fundamental points Brown makes, so didn't see any worth in reading them. I am not saying it wouldn't work for some. I am just saying I disagree with the blanket POV on shame. I am not alone in this. There are plenty of people that disagree with her POV that all shame is bad and her definition of what guilt is.

Guilt and shame are both adaptive and helpful.

&

Guilt and shame are both painful and unhelpful.

It simply depends on whether or not they’re justified. If guilt or shame is justified, then it helps us. If guilt or shame is unjustified, then it hurts us. And sometimes, it can only help us so far, which means we need both forgiveness, reconciliation, and restoration to bring us back.

But shame’s more than simply feeling unworthy of love. That’s where she’s wrong. Shame is what we feel about others when we do something wrong. Honor is the opposite of that. We feel shame when we do something evil and people find out about it.

Guilt deals with the position and posture of our soul as relates to the inherent beauty and goodness and truth of all that is unseen.

Shame deals with the position and posture of our soul as relates to the inherent beauty and goodness and truth of all that is seen.

@Zugzwang

Just some food for thought

True humility is staying teachable, regardless of how much you already know.

We can’t learn anything new until we can admit that we don’t already know everything.

Adopting a beginner’s mindset helps you to be teachable. Beginners are aware that they don’t know it all, and they proceed accordingly. As a general rule, they’re open and humble, noticeably lacking in the rigidity that often accompanies experience and achievement

The point I was making, that I feel you missed (given your response to what you quoted me on) is that you made a statement about her views on accountability, based on assumption and not on fact. Had you let go of your rigid thinking and actually read her books you would have seen that the assumption was false.

So, if I read through the books. Then, I will find that her POV on shame is not what every review good or bad is? I know my POV on shame. I have read good reviews and bad on her and just know it isn't for me. There are plenty of people out there that choose to see or not see a movie based on reviews. Read or not read a book. It isn't like I saw three reviews about where she is wrong and based my choice off of that. I have seen reviews in support of her and they pull and point out stuff I just disagree with. Personally, I don't think that makes me ignorant just because I choose to not invest my time on something I researched to a certain point to educate myself on. I am comfortable and happy without hurting other people and have accepted myself just fine with my view on shame, so why bother to read on something I didn't need to reframe in order to live with myself and accept myself. I spent better time reading on mindfulness instead. Reading the book on Grace my wife has been after me about and those Love and Respect in marriage and family. That is fine though, if it makes me ignorant or rigid that I don't want to read the books based on reviews I can live with that.