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thanks for the update.

You are smart to stay away from the drama and headspace of it!

good luck !

She has even promised me that she will tell the evaluator that she hates me

IMO, she would not do that. This is your 14 yo DD, right? Yeah, she's hurting and she's angry, but she won't do anything to potentially jeopardize her being around you. (After all, how is she going to verbally slam you if she's not around you? ) Fourteen was the roughest age for both my DDs - they were such angels before that age and BAM! Devil incarnate. This was before FWH's EAs so it had nothing to do with marital strife affecting them. It's just because - 14.

So glad everything went well - I'm confident this will all work in your favor - you've been very patient; this has been one hell of a long process!

IMO, she would not do that. This is your 14 yo DD, right? Yeah, she's hurting and she's angry, but she won't do anything to potentially jeopardize her being around you.

This is my middle child... almost 13 years old (in 2 weeks).

DD13 is pretty stubborn and she might have told the evaluator precisely that. I am not worried about what she did or did not say, to be honest. In fact, I shared this child's text message to me saying that she would tell the evaluator that she hated me... with the evaluator.

I have argued parental alienation all along and I think that it's pretty obvious because of the documentation that I have provided. STBXW and I will have a disagreement over money and 90 minutes later one of the kids is complaining that I refuse to pay for something that they want. It has happened with both of the older kids. One of the older kids literally complained that I was "spending all of my money on my girlfriend." (note: I don't have any money... I had to take a second job to keep me from getting into too much debt). The kids are also exceptionally knowledgeable about the divorce, in general. They literally often know details before I do.

I have emphasized that I have done everything possible to keep the kids out of the middle. STBXW, however, seems to have done everything possible to keep them in the middle.

I have been working on a plan in case the evaluator sides with STBXW and I effectively lose my kids. I think that I am going to simply "give up" until they are adults. I'll just be the occasional weekend dad and a babysitter and do what I can, but I'll stop fighting STBXW. She's simply too good at making sure that the kids get caught in the middle and I am sick of them taking damage.

This is my middle child... almost 13 years old

My bad...sorry for the error, wow...she's a little pistol, eh?

I have been working on a plan in case the evaluator sides with STBXW and I effectively lose my kids. I think that I am going to simply "give up" until they are adults. I'll just be the occasional weekend dad and a babysitter and do what I can, but I'll stop fighting STBXW. She's simply too good at making sure that the kids get caught in the middle and I am sick of them taking damage.

Oh, barcher, please don't give up if that happens. (IMO, that's not going to happen...but it saddens me to read that you're entertaining this idea.)

Why do you think there's a chance you will lose your kids?

Oh, barcher, please don't give up if that happens. (IMO, that's not going to happen...but it saddens me to read that you're entertaining this idea.)

To be clear, I am not permanently giving up. I am just going to let the situation calm down for 5 years or so.

This is a horrible situation... I saw my psychiatrist this morning and she was horrified by the story. I am an adult. I have a therapist. And medication. And she is happily surprised at how well I am handling it.

My kids, though? It's killing them. I will back off and let them breathe. I will be there, but I am not going to fight STBXW anymore. I will pay child support and/or alimony and shut up. I make a good salary and I am not materialistic, so I can have a very comfortable life with whatever money I have left after I pay her each month.

Once they turn 18, though, I'll start it up again. We'll have a long chat about what I did and why... and what STBXW did and why.

Why do you think there's a chance you will lose your kids?

Because narcissists win all of the time and I am a "hope for the best, prepare for the worst" guy. It's inarguable that there is a chance that I will lose my kids.

When the judge ruled against me in June, I was not emotionally prepared for it. I need to be prepared for losing with the evaluator now.

Because narcissists win all of the time and I am a "hope for the best, prepare for the worst" guy. It's inarguable that there is a chance that I will lose my kids.

When the judge ruled against me in June, I was not emotionally prepared for it. I need to be prepared for losing with the evaluator now.

I understand now.

Keeping everything crossed that for once, narcissism will not prevail.

Barcher, when will you know?

I have been working on a plan in case the evaluator sides with STBXW and I effectively lose my kids. I think that I am going to simply "give up" until they are adults. I'll just be the occasional weekend dad and a babysitter and do what I can, but I'll stop fighting STBXW. She's simply too good at making sure that the kids get caught in the middle and I am sick of them taking damage.

This breaks my heart, Barcher.

Because narcissists win all of the time and I am a "hope for the best, prepare for the worst" guy. It's inarguable that there is a chance that I will lose my kids.

And this terrifies me. I get your mental preparation.

I'm really praying that you dont lose your kids! This whole ordeal for you is awful and I'm so sorry. Keeping you in my thoughts.

STBXW and I will have a disagreement over money and 90 minutes later one of the kids is complaining that I refuse to pay for something that they want. It has happened with both of the older kids. One of the older kids literally complained that I was "spending all of my money on my girlfriend." (note: I don't have any money... I had to take a second job to keep me from getting into too much debt). The kids are also exceptionally knowledgeable about the divorce, in general. They literally often know details before I do.

This is really difficult to deal with . . . taking the high road while subject to the troll's assaults.

You're doing a great job! Take a breath and relax for a bit.

I have read enough to know that you will be a great dad and presence in your kid's lives no matter what. You will go the extra mile if you must.

They are so young now and they have had this trauma bestowed upon them. They don't have the life experience to process it all right now. In their 20s, they will have glimmers of understanding. They will comprehend the situation even more when they marry and have kids.

Kids always know more than we think they do. Even if it takes them years to admit it.

I also went into the D thinking I could lose custody. I also mentally prepared for it. Would you believe xwh stopped getting them as soon as the D was final? (I did get custody, but once it was final he quit putting on the show and rarely got them for any extended breaks, summer vaca, even Christmas break! He and OW travel over Christmas. ) So, yes, if you aren’t given custody, just be at everything they are in, and I’m guessing your XWW soon have other things to do if she gets to think she “won”, and the performance is over.)

This is really difficult to deal with . . . taking the high road while subject to the troll's assaults.

Uh, to say the least.

The middle child is particularly problematic because she isn't in therapy. She hears all of this crap from STBXW and her FOO and it has largely convinced her that I am a bad dad. When she made specific accusations to my face, she was completely unprepared for my response that refuted basically all of the accusations (STBXW and her FOO aren't very smart... their accusations are always the same and in no way grounded in reality).

I have tried to get DD12 into therapy, but STBXW has refused arguing that DD12 doesn't want to go to therapy. My hope (and my lawyer's) is that the custody evaluator will see this as bad parenting and it'll help me out in the long run.

The good news with DD14 is that she is in therapy and the therapist has circumvented a lot of STBXW's parental alienation tactics. I am not neglectful. I am not controlling. I just went the best for her. So, for example, when STBXW took the opportunity to tell DD14 that I was refusing to pay for something for her, DD14 asked me about it. My response was "Your mother and I are having a disagreement over who should pay for what. You will not be losing WHATEVER IT WAS. You don't have to worry. This is between me and your mom." DD14 didn't respond and it hasn't come back up since.

So, yes, if you aren’t given custody, just be at everything they are in, and I’m guessing your XWW soon have other things to do if she gets to think she “won”, and the performance is over.

I think that she'll stop "performing" but she will maintain custody. She will use me as a cheap babysitter whenever she wants, etc. And, yes, I will be at everything.

Her narcissism means that she needs to enmesh the kids... they are merely extensions of her. My biggest concern is that she will turn them into narcissists too.

I have read enough to know that you will be a great dad and presence in your kid's lives no matter what. You will go the extra mile if you must.

That's basically my plan, although it's going to be very covert. I like to live by the rules of The Godfather, which make way more sense if you read the book rather than the movie. One rule is to keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Another rule is that revenge is a dish best served cold. Basically, I am going to go quiet, pretend to be compliant with STBXW's every wish (within reason) and then when the kids are 18... I'll start it back up again.

[This message edited by barcher144 at 8:25 PM, November 23rd (Saturday)]

A brief update that sort of fits in this thread.

One of my letter writers for the custody evaluator is my current girlfriend. I thought long and hard about using her as a reference, but I decided to do so because I am super introverted and private in real life and very very few people have ever seen me parent. GF has met my oldest child (not the other two) and she has witnessed numerous phone calls between me and the kids (usually on speaker phone).

Anyway, GF told me yesterday that she spilled the beans on a lot of the dirt that I have learned about STBXW over the last 6 months (most of which I haven't mentioned here). She told the evaluator that STBXW almost certainly slept with another guy (in addition to AP), about a month before D-day. She told the evaluator that STBXW was having an another affair with a 22-year old co-worker during the summer of 2018, just before we decided to get divorced. She told the evaluator that STBXW was texting at least three other guys (in addition to the 22 year old and in addition to STBXW's current boyfriend) in April-June 2019. One of these guys was the ex husband of one of STBXW's friends; this friend had already had words with STBXW to stay away from her husband (apparently STBXW had been flirty with him for a long time).

I had been advised to not discuss any of this gossip about STBXW with the custody evaluator by my attorney because it would make me seem obsessed with STBXW (and that I wasn't past her or the marriage). So, hopefully, GF didn't screw all of this up for me. I think that I will be okay, but I guess that I am just venting a little bit.

[This message edited by barcher144 at 8:35 PM, November 23rd (Saturday)]

I wouldn’t worry. I think the evaluator will see that you personally didn’t mention these things. I believe they like to hear from several people to get the big picture...

I would let your attorney know what your GF said in her letter; to me - a neutral party might think this is not a good look, with information coming from an intimate relationship to an aggrieved party in the divorce, with what might appear to be hearsay rather than first hand knowledge. And unless GF SAW your ex with every OM she reported, it IS hearsay.

I don't know if there's any damage control that can be done. But having the advice of your attorney of what to say in front of a judge as to how GF came by this knowledge so that you're not caught off guard might be really good tactical preparation.

If OM had a say in your custody evaluation based on hearsay from your ex? like I said, probably not a good look.

I agree with k8la.

The evaluator might think that you asked your GF to say those things. I also agree that it doesn't look good at all.

Did you ask your attorney about using your GF as a reference in this instance?

Cat

But having the advice of your attorney of what to say in front of a judge as to how GF came by this knowledge so that you're not caught off guard might be really good tactical preparation.

I'll just tell the truth.

In May, STBXW claimed that I was falsely accusing her of having a boyfriend. I know that she had been texting back and forth, a lot, with one guy as far back as December (remember, she was on my cell phone plan, so I had access to her records). She had already introduced my kids to him (and his kids). I basically decided to double-check the records again (perhaps they broke up?).

Sure enough, she was texting back and forth with this same guy a lot - like thousands of times per month. I also noticed that she was texting other numbers a lot (especially first thing in the morning and late at night). I did a quick search on the numbers and discovered that she was texting the dude down the street, the ex husband of one of her friends. She was also texting back and forth with a "soccer dad" that I also know is a serious swordsman. She was also texting another number, but I was never able to figure out a name (I didn't try very hard, tbh).

As far as the "other affair" prior to our formal split into IHS, I was checking phone records related to putting together a timeline for the night of our final argument (where she claims that I assaulted her). I noticed that the phone records showed her location when she took and made phone calls and that she was frequently not at work when she should have been at work.

In particular, there was a day in July 2018 when I noticed that a remote-control-sex-toy that we had purchased prior to D-day (and never used, btw) was missing... I called her and she admitted that she brought it to work with her for vague reasons (I told this story on SI when it happened... everyone said that she was cheating again). The phone records show that when she took that call, she was 30 miles east of her work location, in a small town where 22-year old co-worker lives. Further inspection of the phone records showed that she was *never* in that town the 6 months prior to co-worker starting at that job... and then she was taking phone calls there 6-8 times per month after that.

She had also mentioned to me that co-worker admitted to having a thing for middle-aged women, approximately his mother's age (i.e., the same age as STBXW). She got pissed (in July 2018) when I told her this was sexual harassment by co-worker (apparently, it wasn't since it was consensual)

Basically, I told GF all of this. That's how she knows.

[This message edited by barcher144 at 10:16 AM, November 25th (Monday)]

The evaluator might think that you asked your GF to say those things. I also agree that it doesn't look good at all.

I was just thinking about this. I think that I am perhaps okay with the evaluator. She literally asked me whether or not I thought that AP was STBXW's only affair and I told her no. The evaluator did not ask follow-up questions.

I am certain that the evaluator knows that I do not make claims like that without justification. I am an exceptionally logical person and I am very clear when I am speculating versus when I am making statements based on actual knowledge.

Did you ask your attorney about using your GF as a reference in this instance?

No, I did not. Hindsight being 20/20, this was probably a mistake.

Unfortunately, being an introvert and a very private individual, I had very few choices for my references. I enlisted GF because she had actually witnessed a couple of events that I think are pertinent.

Another update... hot off of the presses.

The evaluator just called and scheduled another interview session. She said that this was likely the final interview session.

I was kind of guessing that the end was near because the evaluator recently asked for additional funds but she only asked for an amount about half of the initial payment.

Still, I have to think this bodes well for my outcome, doesn't it? STBXW is claiming domestic violence by me onto her (including rape) and we have not discussed those allegations in detail. I know that the custody evaluator has a special form for cases that involve domestic violence, but I have not been given that form by her to fill out.

Okay, back to preparing for the worst... but the previous 5 minutes were brought to you by cautious optimism.