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I was thinking Skywalker/Solo applied to WHes, the way Madonna/Whore applies to WWs...

No?

I am going to answer as a WW, and as a woman, but I do not qualify for the "gave bigger menu".

I do not think I know of any women who look at their husband as sexually innocent the way some men look at their wives. We are trained pretty young to believe all guys want is sex as programming for not giving it up before finding someone that loves/respects us or possibly even marriage.

So, no I don't think the Madonna/Whore thing exists towards men.

I do think there are women who believe that their husbands want a "good girl" and it's compounded by never going what they consider "out of bounds" sexually.

I also think that it's likely the majority of the time that the women who have given the larger menu to the AP did so out of desperation. In an affair situation, they often really just want to steal the man and they are pulling out the stops. It's not true in every case, but I think men are better at the cake eating in very general terms. That again is not true in all cases at all.

I can not explain to you why when they want to save the marriage they don't do the same. But at the same time I can say that many do the sex bombing thing in hopes of rugsweeping or controlling the outcome of the marriage. I actually think that seems to be a far more common scenario in posts than the other way.

My advice to any BS would be that you need to understand your spouse has no real idea of what authentic even looks like right after dday. They are too far into damage control to even think straight. Or, even worse they are so far gone damage control isn't even on their radar. Detach. Protect yourself. And, if you want to try and R, leave that as a wait and see.

I think some WW's feel social, familial, and/or religious pressure to behave as some sort of Madonna in the context of their relationship with their husbands, when deep down inside they would rather be more adventurous sexually.

I was going to stay out of this thread, but bftg's contribution bears repeating, IMO.

I think some WW's feel social, familial, and/or religious pressure to behave as some sort of Madonna in the context of their relationship with their husbands, when deep down inside they would rather be more adventurous sexually.

I was going to stay out of this thread, but bftg's contribution bears repeating, IMO.

Yeah, and a lot of men (me) growing up get very strong societal pressure to nail anything that moves and not a lot of parental guidance other than "do NOT get anyone pregnant".

Guess what? It's called growing up, and, if you want to be an adult, you need to grow beyond the "birds and the bees" and "if it walks, f**k it" that it seems girls/boys get as messaging early in life. I agree with you, I do think that women feel "pressure" to act a certain way but so do men. I don't get to lean back on the "pressure" that I feel to live the "boys will be boys" lifestyle if I cheated on my W; just like my W doesn't get to lean back on the "good girls don't do that" bulls**t she learned when she was 12 after cheating on me. Sorry, no, this is what being an adult is. Now, in the cases of true trauma, OK, situation could be different there, but, just "societal pressure"? Come on, society wants me to do lots of things, much of it really bad for me personally. I decide for me what I'm going to do, society can f**k off.

I think some WW's feel social, familial, and/or religious pressure to behave as some sort of Madonna in the context of their relationship with their husbands, when deep down inside they would rather be more adventurous sexually.

I was going to stay out of this thread, but bftg's contribution bears repeating, IMO.

Yeah, and a lot of men (me) growing up get very strong societal pressure to nail anything that moves and not a lot of parental guidance other than "do NOT get anyone pregnant".

Guess what? It's called growing up, and, if you want to be an adult, you need to grow beyond the "birds and the bees" and "if it walks, f**k it" that it seems girls/boys get as messaging early in life. I agree with you, I do think that women feel "pressure" to act a certain way but so do men. I don't get to lean back on the "pressure" that I feel to live the "boys will be boys" lifestyle if I cheated on my W; just like my W doesn't get to lean back on the "good girls don't do that" bulls**t she learned when she was 12 after cheating on me. Sorry, no, this is what being an adult is. Now, in the cases of true trauma, OK, situation could be different there, but, just "societal pressure"? Come on, society wants me to do lots of things, much of it really bad for me personally. I decide for me what I'm going to do, society can f**k off.

Just as an fyi sleeplessincali, I am totally using the Skywalker solo thing from here on. You have a brilliant mind!

I think some WW's feel social, familial, and/or religious pressure to behave as some sort of Madonna in the context of their relationship with their husbands, when deep down inside they would rather be more adventurous sexually.

I mostly agree but I think it could be amended to say:

WW's feel social, familial, and/or religious pressure to behave as some sort of Madonna in the context of their relationship with their husbands, when deep down inside they would rather be more adventurous sexually, but the love and attraction that they feel for their husbands does not allow it

In other words, "social, familial, and/or religious pressure" is a cover for the fact that the love and attraction (as in NOT ENOUGH OF) that they feel for their husbands is LIMITING their DESIRE to be more sexually adventurous with him. She simply doesn't WANT it.

This IMO is the core of the issue in these threads - there's simply not enough WANT to make her LOVE and not enough LOVE to make her WANT.

As in WANT. to. be. more. sexually. adventurous. with. her. husband.

He can't force it, and she can't force it.

There's simply NOT enough love and attraction (and probably never was) to do it with her husband and there simply WAS enough love and attraction (and probably always will be) to do it with the AP.

Btw, I also 100% agree with the non-gender version of this statement:

WS's feel social, familial, and/or religious pressure to behave as some sort of Madonna in the context of their relationship with their BS, when deep down inside they would rather be more adventurous sexually, but the love and attraction that they feel for their BS does not allow it

"and attraction (as in NOT ENOUGH OF) that they feel for their husbands is LIMITING their DESIRE to be more sexually adventurous with him. She simply doesn't WANT it.

This IMO is the core of the issue in these threads - there's simply not enough WANT to make her LOVE and not enough LOVE to make her WANT.

As in WANT. to. be. more. sexually. adventurous. with. her. husband.

He can't force it, and she can't force it.

There's simply NOT enough love and attraction (and probably never was) to do it with her husband and there simply WAS enough love and attraction (and probably always will be) to do it with the AP.

I do understand why this is your belief. But, to me that's POSSIBLY under a condensed timeline/narrative. I will not say what you are saying couldn't be true in some cases, but I will expand here if I can:

I got married to my husband in my early twenties. I had an affair in my mid 40's. While I will not say I was unsatisfied with our sex life or that I didn't desire him because he wasn't attractive to me, there are some underlying things I think commonly get set up in marriage that causes the desire to go down. And, I can see we were no different in that way.

Earlier in the marriage there was simply more time to explore our sexuality together, but at an age where there might still be a somewhat limited view on what we both might want that to entail. I wasn't naive when I was that young but I certainly had a different view of my sexuality and a different level of experience. We were still very new to each other and trying all sorts of stuff out. As our family and circumstances changed we end up on a diet of mostly doing "what works". We forget that our bodies and attitudes change and we don't put the time or investment to "update" what it is we know.

Within the confines of a marital relationship, with children, I think the evolution of our sexuality kind of sneaks up on us all. What worked earlier doesn't work any more, or as easily and without asking why or changing it up we make assumptions that we aren't as interested in sex. That maybe it's an age thing, or maybe even think it's a spouse thing. I don't know. I thought it was an age thing personally.

For me, I think I took our sexual relationship for granted to a certain degree. I think that is common after years of maybe rotating around some specific "guarantees" and only having time here and there to get "gourmet". That isn't my husband's fault, and it doesn't make him less sexy. It makes him familiar. I don't think men and women are that different in that way. There is a certain position that my husband loved for years and years and years. Suddenly when we got in that position (and this was preaffair) he didn't seem to me to be as outwardly excited.

I don't think that had a damned thing to do with if he loved me, or if I was attractive to him. I think it just had to do with same old/same old and clues that we often miss that we need to shake it up. Do new things. Start with a blank slate and relearn each other's bodies. I also think for a long time I was afraid to ask him to do new things that I was desiring because I was afraid it would come off as a criticism.

Post A - nothing is off limits, nothing is assumed. There are appearances from our old rotation, but when they crop up they are hot again because we didn't just do them the night before.

I think longterm desire wanes more because of familiarity, doing "guaranteed routines" too often, taking each other for granted, not stoking the fires at non-sexual times, and our bodies and sexuality change over the years and it's so damned nuanced that we sometimes just don't recognize it. We chalk it up to "this is how it is now"

I don't always think desire that wanes is the product of finding your spouse not attractive. And, gosh, how many AP's are even more attractive than the spouse? Very few.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:55 PM, July 20th (Monday)]

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[This message edited by hikingout at 12:49 PM, July 20th (Monday)]

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[This message edited by hikingout at 12:49 PM, July 20th (Monday)]

I think it IS the madonna/white complex. Applied to themselves, not yhe spouse.

Like - I am a good woman,married to a good man. Good woman don't do this.

But this is a bad man and I am a bad woman when I do this and bad women can do these things.

And if you view sex as a dirty thing then being sexually open with your spouse can be very hard

I think it IS the madonna/white complex. Applied to themselves, not yhe spouse.

Like - I am a good woman,married to a good man. Good woman don't do this.

But this is a bad man and I am a bad woman when I do this and bad women can do these things.

And if you view sex as a dirty thing then being sexually open with your spouse can be very hard

According to the therapist, I am the Madonna in my husband's Madonna/Whore complex. Bullshit. Sorry.That's my opinion.

Let's just pretend that instead of playing with whores, he REALLY liked playing with fire. A real pyromaniac. The way I see it, he could have:

1. Told me about his desire to play with fire. We could have handled it together. Got whatever help he needed. Hell, I could have supplied a flamethrower and a blow torch.

2. Obtained his own IC and worked through his own shit without anyone knowing. It's not like he minded keeping secrets.

3. Burned down the entire county BEFORE we got married.

4. Divorced me and burned down the whole state.

I'm not buying the poor damaged baby stuff. He was a grown ass man, who should have had the stones to say what he meant. It's obvious he had warmed himself on slow burning fires before me. He and his X talked for hours about the tasty s'mores they enjoyed. He had a whole smorgasbord going all over the place.

I was what he needed to present to the public. I am a dammed good mother and he needed that. I was the right religion, background, socially accepted by his peers. I clean up good. He WANTED all of that. Unfortunately he also thought he was entitled to keep all that while he betrayed me, exposed me to disease and laughed at me behind my back.

I deserved better. Put all the labels on it you need, it STILL is cheating,it STILL is betrayal, it STILL is wrong

No, I do not believe there is a male equivalent to this complex because I do not believe this existed for me either. It's an excuse for asshole behavior. Period.

I was thinking Skywalker/Solo applied to WHes, the way Madonna/Whore applies to WWs..

No?

Yes, that is what I thought when I was thinking about that title. If WH has a Madonna wife and Whore affair partner, then a WW would have a Skywalker Husband and Solo affair partner

Literally though when you say Madonna / Whore.... many WH actually do visit prostitutes. I'm not sure if I've read testimony from a wayward wife who visits male prostitutes....maybe a WW who is a sex addict would correlate...but....dunno, just thoughts. I had to look up info on this when researching my KISA husband who dated a x porn star and wrote about her.

[This message edited by sleeplessincali at 9:15 PM, July 21st (Tuesday)]