SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I knew my husband was the better man the entire time, I never lost sight of that even in the deepest parts of what I think of as my sickness.

My H said similar things. He never considered leaving or replacing me. He knew the OW was beneath me. His cheating wasn't about me or her. It was about him.

I was not Enough.

Not enough of what?

I'm not trying to berate you for feeling what you feel. Since feelings are valid.

Cheaters are not using the same frame of mind when choosing to cheat.

You have it framed in a monogamous and loyal mindset. That you wouldn't have sex with another person if you are already having exclusive sex with a person. That in order to do so, you have to choose.

A cheater is not choosing between. They are choosing both (or many). They are not hampered by their promises or ethics. They don't need to choose between meals on a prix fixe menu. They are at an all you can eat buffet.

It doesn't reflect on your value as a person, it reflects on their lack of values.

Maybe this advice helps, maybe not.

But it just isn't going to be useful to think of it as a choice when she never saw it as picking between options.

I was the "fallback guy" even at the very beginning of the relationship and marriage. I was bitter about this for a long time, until I realized that a) I had chosen to stick around even though this was the case, and b) this is only ever a status someone else can give me, and as something largely out of my control, there's little sense in me stressing about it.

So what did I do about it?

1) I officially downgraded my FWW's status to "concubine." Dead serious. She hates that I refer to her like this, but she cannot refute my reasoning: wives give themselves completely to their husbands, and that's nothing she's ever done for me, sexually or in marital authority. This status doesn't change anything about our situation - she is still married, and has her husband "one who takes care of." She just doesn't have the title of "wife" anymore.

2) She hates it when I glibly and blithely refer to myself as "the fallback guy." She always tries to say that's not how she feels about me, and I say I believe her, and I do. However, that's exactly how she's treated me. Twice now, sexually. So if it all-fired bothers her that I feel this way, maybe she should dedicate her whole life to sincerely convincing me otherwise. It probably won't work, but I'd definitely appreciate the effort.

I am at a turning point right now, but I want to answer something I care

Not enough of what?

Not enough valuable of a person to be worth committing to. In my case, not enough of a man, for her.

I believe this to be the case 95 percent of the time. I definitely know it’s true in my case. In fact, I knew my husband was the better man the entire time, I never lost sight of that even in the deepest parts of what I think of as my sickness.

My case is different, she replaced me every single time. She kept me as an emotional option for her ego, lying to me about how much she loved me and I was special to her. The moment one affair gave her more comfort in the moment and she thought it could be stabilized, she left me. Just to come back to me when it failed shortly after. No care for my pain. No care for my feelings. No regret, lies. No respect for me as a person rebuilding a life after betrayal.

I was a commodity, she simply needed me to feel better at that time while she searched. So to feel that need I had to pay the price with my life and future to soothe her void.

Was not honest R and I can see the results today.

I don’t believe in soul mates, not in the way people talk about it. There are lots of people we can be attracted to and have compatibility with. I believe romantic love ebbs and flows and it’s what you do in the ebbs that define your character, not your spouses worth.

I absolutely believe in soulmates, it’s the very difference you get from a ‘friend’ and a Friend with capital F.

- There are many people you click with. You call them friends, they are good to keep around, support each other in good and bad times, they are valuable and you care for, but there’s always a line. You can take the good with no limits, but you can take just enough of the bad before reaching the line.

- There are few people who are a true match, those are are a rarity of a connection, you call these friends, but the connections between you is so deep that they really become family. It’s truly loyal, people who are there for you and you are there for them even though your detriment if needed. It’s love even if not romantic. They truly matter for you and you truly matter for them. You don’t let each other down not out of convenience but out of love. An extension of you, is precious, is shared.

- Then there’s the relationship part, partnership you click with, you have desire and feelings of love, is real and matters , like the first kind of friendship but much deeper. Because you share more, you can have children with and spend a life together. It’s real and valuable, but no matter what there is a line , they are your precious partner, you and them will do almost anything for each others. Almost, that’s where the line is.

- And like with friends there’s the romantic equivalent of ‘soulmates’. This is very rare, perhaps not unique, but the combination of factors that must click together is a serious lottery chance. It is a true match like true friendship but deeper. It is a romantic relationship that bypasses the others, not because of magic but because the match combination is rare. And these relationships are scary because they will change you to your core, there is no "if" it’s inevitable, you form a bond that is too deep, depending on the partners maturity this will change you for the better or for the worse. You can only choose to stay or run, if you stay you will be forever changed, because you can’t help to accept the other person good and bad. It’s not completion, it’s merging of the light and darkness of 2 people. It doesn’t mean necessarily better it means riskier. Could be incredible or devastating, because you both are so exposed that fear or misstep can kick in and you will both suffer more than in other kinds of relationships. And we humans are great at fucking up stuff.

This is human nature, we connect but there are degrees. These are only the examples of relationships closest to your heart because is what we talk about here.

Now betrayal. Each of the above can suffer from betrayal. And that itself can vary in intensity from small to devastating. Little lies, fears or bad decisions, to intentional harm.

Each kind of betrayal carries its own emotional impact.

For each tier of connection that betrayal will hurt deeper. The deepest the connection the more painful and hard to heal and forgive the wound is.

Probably there is a worse scenario too, one delusional party. You can offer a level of connection that is not reciprocated. For whatever reason, true unreciprocation or withdrawal from fear by the other party.

If this is the case the delusional party will hurt way more than the offending party who pulled back.

You may both suffer, the intensity is different.

Deciding factor about healing ❤️‍🩹 is depending if it was truly unreciprocated or it was a pull back out of fear or unresolved issues:

- if it was unreciprocated the delusional person will eventually find out and reassess the value of it all. You accept it was a delusion, a mistake from your side, and reframes everything in being used by the other person, because that’s the case or they would have clarified. Their value drops to zero and below, you can truly heal and forget, because it was all your projection, there was no mirror. There was no real loss here, just a lesson learned about yourself. This is no loss, the pain is additive (you added the painful situation by creating a fantasy) Healing is real.

- a pull back hurt more because it was true connection and they (or you) stepped out, or where indecisive about being all in. Here is a matter of loss due to choices. The loss is real here.

And loss is the hardest emotional hitter to your heart. The connection was there and now is gone. You can never fully recover from a loss, you can move on but will leave a scar. Is like losing your child vs not having a child. Both are painful, but the loss scars you for life. Because you had and now they are gone.

And this is how I understand the whole matter of soulmates.

Losing a friend or a romantic relationship hurts. Losing a true friend or a soulmate deeply scars.

One can feel any degree of pain ranging from losing your wallet to losing your dearest childhood possession, the one that helped you to grow and you preserved for lifelong memory to pass on to your kids.

You will have fond memories and maybe melancholy, but you’ll be fine.

The other feels like, from the pain for the death of a close relative, up to the death of your child.

You will survive, but you will never forget. The scar changes you for the rest of your life.

So yes, your grief is absolutely understandable and natural. Can it be something again? Maybe? Either way you can build the life you want and you can have great love again with someone else. You can also have great love again with her if that’s what you both want and prioritize. Our feelings usually go where our thoughts go, and of course right now your thoughts about all this are not rainbows and sunshine and will not be for a long time.

Things like this leave a scar. It can be mended, as in rebuilt. But only if both are more than committed, that means no but or if, there is no line, rebuilding requires an even stronger commitment than starting.

You have to both be ready for self sacrifice if or when it’s needed. It’s now a painful process while before it was a pleasure hike. If you are scared of the pain and hesitate, then you cannot succeed.

In our terms the BS is on the ground bleeding, has to stand up , heal the wounds and offer a hand.

The WS is also hurting and has to stand up, take the BS hand and crawl with them, both completely naked and vulnerable, on the field of broken glass that’s been the shattered bond.

You will both bleed again right after having tended to your wounds. It will hurt both for as long as it takes.

Is when you both are holding strong when your partner is bleeding more that you can rebuild the foundation.

One day that’ll be solid enough that the broken glass under will hurt you no more. Then you can truly rebuild, having shared something that very few people can really pull off. Bonding stronger through adversity.

The broken glass will always be there below the floor, down in the basement of the memory, sometimes a shard will sting and hurt, that’s reality.

But you have a new solid base you can both live and build up upon. That’s real too.

Cheaters are not using the same frame of mind when choosing to cheat.

You have it framed in a monogamous and loyal mindset. That you wouldn't have sex with another person if you are already having exclusive sex with a person. That in order to do so, you have to choose.

A cheater is not choosing between. They are choosing both (or many). They are not hampered by their promises or ethics. They don't need to choose between meals on a prix fixe menu. They are at an all you can eat buffet.

It doesn't reflect on your value as a person, it reflects on their lack of values.

Maybe this advice helps, maybe not.

i get what you say and thank you.

No it doesn’t reflect your own value as a person.

It wounds the attachment, our natural trait of connection, we are wired for it as much as we are wired to breathe oxygen.

Attachment is not a choice, is trust. Attachment is biologically expensive, is the biggest investment you will ever do. That’s why it becomes monogamy, you simply can’t afford to invest anything more anywhere else.

Is not a choice is a stability need.

The cheater is not choosing, is just not investing the moment they cheat, leaving you exposed and that’s life draining for the betrayed.

They lied about their investment, they exploit you and they exploit others. And doing so they sabotage themselves as well.

But you are the one who is forced to pay the bill for the all you can eat buffet, while your cheating partner knew already full well you’re being bankrupted.

It does diminish your value, although temporary you are forced to pay the price, and you lost everything you invested until now. You can always recover, not everyone does.

Because you take a brutal hit, depending how much you invested, that’s what you lost. Is not if or when or an investment fallacy. The moment you are cheated on, you lost. All that was in. And you have to pay for the cheater buffet bill as well.

No matter how many affair partners they invited at their buffet party, you are already broke and you have to pay for all.

Translated to myself, I invested all in what I believed once. I lost it all when she cheated the first two times (because I just found out another one). I gave her trust again, and bet my future at 20. So I lost my past, my future and I lost my entire adult life.

Exactly 20 years later I find myself at the same edge of the cliff she thrown me in several times. With a child. All is lost and I have to rebuild front zero again.

Does this reflect my own value?

No, I will rebuild it will work out, I know my worth.

But I surely took the hit, and she still stands there, justifying her needs and entitlement, while pretending to be a partner. Excusing and taking no accountability.

So if the WS doesn’t change.

I was not chosen. I was not enough. I was replaceable.

Is not my worth here, is the wound and the bill for her buffet.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 7:21 AM, Saturday, February 14th]

In my case, not enough of a man, for her.

Does that apply to the rest of us, the thousands of members here, and millions of other betrayed spouses around the world? Were we not enough of a man or woman?

I think you are as wrong as you can possibly be about this notion that you were not enough of a man.

The fault always lies with the cheater. Always.

You are and have always been enough. the issue was that she didn’t want commitment or monogamy. It wasn’t that she didn’t want it with you - she didn’t want it at all. She wanted YOU to give her those things, but she wanted to do whatever she wanted. Typical cake eater.

You, and all of us, are enough.

Does that apply to the rest of us, the thousands of members here, and millions of other betrayed spouses around the world? Were we not enough of a man or woman?

No it doesn’t apply to you.

I am understanding that is the source of my pain, the attachment wound. Mix that with my childhood trauma, being abandoned at birth for half of my childhood.

That made me believe for most of my life, until few month ago, I was not worthy and unlovable.

The betrayal to me just confirmed that deepest trauma. That is why healing was so difficult for me and all therapy failed.

I am capable now to tell myself I am worthy, soon or later my nerve system will learn it. Maybe.

I have to recondition an entire life. Like usual I have to face it alone.

Giving words to the pain and wounds helps, is like talking to someone.

You are and have always been enough. the issue was that she didn’t want commitment or monogamy. It wasn’t that she didn’t want it with you - she didn’t want it at all.

She wanted monogamy and she has been monogamous with all her exes and with her affair partners too.

In her history I am the one and only exception.

While I was officially her boyfriend and fiancée, in truth I was mostly the fuck buddy that you keep in between relationships.

Not the movie she presented to me though.
Two days ago I just found out that was the case since the very beginning of our relationship. Even the fresh start was all just fake, the early memories I still treasured were a cruel lie.
I have been lied since day one. This reframes everything, I have nothing in my sentimental life that is not tainted by rejection and falsity.

For her I was never a partner, never a man.
I was nice thing to parade around, to make her friends envious and to comfort her emotions and body when she needed.

She never took me seriously, not even as a person, just a role and an object.

Most of you here have been betrayed and understand the pain you share with me.

Most of you have been chosen at some point in time by someone in your previous relationships, even if they ended.

I never experienced that, since birth, and later in life.

But I chose others with extreme loyalty. And I seen others choose other with loyalty.

With my old wounds, my void of never reciprocated relationship attachment, makes extremely hard to feel like you say.

I know it’s true what you say.

I am loving myself enough today.

There’s always that old echo from the past whispering that "you didn’t have because in your case, you truly aren’t worth of other’s love"

Is a fragment from the past that needs time to die out.

That’s possibly why I don’t find easy to open to reconciliation.

I just know even if she heals she will never be able to give me these things that she freely gave to others.

Hope you understand I am not denying your truth, I know you are right.

I am trying to understand myself to learn from my mistakes

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 5:57 PM, Saturday, February 14th]

She never took me seriously, not even as a person, just a role and an object.

This is a critical, and of course deeply painful, realization. HO says ‘you can have deep love again’ with her. I think you’re seeing she never loved you in the first place (love is a verb - not warm butterfly feelings), at least not love in how you understand and live it. It could well be the "love" your W has shown you is all she’s capable of. Is this how you wish to spend the rest of your life?

In light of this, may I ask you why you’re still set on R ?

she replaced me every single time. She kept me as an emotional option for her ego, lying to me about how much she loved me and I was special to her. The moment one affair gave her more comfort in the moment and she thought it could be stabilized, she left me. Just to come back to me when it failed shortly after. No care for my pain. No care for my feelings. No regret, lies. No respect for me as a person rebuilding a life after betrayal.

Based on what I've read of your posts, I think it was you who did not value yourself. Why keep taking her back?

I thought you posted somewhere that you had another dday and were done. Am I getting you confused with someone else?

Based on what I've read of your posts, I think it was you who did not value yourself. Why keep taking her back?

I thought you posted somewhere that you had another dday and were done. Am I getting you confused with someone else?

it’s me, I found out that right after we got together (no idea how many months), she had a boyfriend in Germany where she spent one year in study. I was the official one, but she was there, I was not.

I only took her back once, the 2008 betrayal when she broke up. I was devastated since then.

I felt them all, 3 affairs and to the count 9 betrayals of lesser entity that I found out.

It’s now that the roles changed, I am the one pulling away while she is panicking.

As for right now I am still here for my child. Evaluating what I should do.

This is a critical, and of course deeply painful, realization. HO says ‘you can have deep love again’ with her. I think you’re seeing she never loved you in the first place (love is a verb - not warm butterfly feelings), at least not love in how you understand and live it. It could well be the "love" your W has shown you is all she’s capable of. Is this how you wish to spend the rest of your life?

In light of this, may I ask you why you’re still set on R ?

I still don’t truly know if I am the kind of person who is even capable to reconcile.

I had deep love for her. That I can promise. Never felt that for anybody else.

I believed that at least on the beginning she was truly in love with me.

This discovery reframes everything, if she was right away in an affair with this guy, no matter if emotional or worse, then I was never loved.

In that case there’s nothing to reconcile.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 7:54 PM, Saturday, February 14th]

I remember in the early days after D-Day, I was always questioning why he would pick her over me and more importantly our son. I think this is a completely natural reaction.

But then one day I just realised it had absolutely nothing to do with who the AP was but more that she was convenient. She honestly could have been any woman that showed him attention. It was just lucky for my WH that he worked with someone who had low morals, just like him.

What I now see is that I (we) were second to his own selfish need for sexual gratification and some attention. He didn’t have to try, he could be who ever he wanted to be and he got what he wanted. That obviously is still a kick in the guts but at least he can now see it and work on himself!

She never took me seriously, not even as a person, just a role and an object.

This was my H, although maybe not for the same reasons as your WW. My H was so cut off from himself that he was incapable of knowing me. I was not an individual person to him. I was a fantasy of what he thought I should be, so just a role or an object. When he came to realize that I didn't fit into his box, he was lost.

I thought he was the first person in my life who had truly chosen me. He knew all of my flaws and still loved me. When I learned that wasn't the case, me entire world fell apart. Everything seemed a lie. He insisted it wasn't. He insisted that he did always love me. I think he believes that. I don't.

[This message edited by cocoplus5nuts at 11:33 PM, Saturday, February 14th]

I thought he was the first person in my life who had truly chosen me. He knew all of my flaws and still loved me. When I learned that wasn't the case, me entire world fell apart. Everything seemed a lie. He insisted it wasn't. He insisted that he did always love me. I think he believes that. I don't.

This sounds exactly like my wife coco.
Is it familiar to you this kind of stuff?

= I am so lucky that I have you, I miss you, I need you here now -> when close after warmth and all looking so great you’re relaxing and just enjoying-> you know I feel so sad that we can’t "insert need/drama that puts you on alert and makes you want to fulfill your partner desires and make them happy, because you feel lacking "

With many variations of the theme, but the feeling is the same, hot and cold.
Initially you feel compelled to fulfill your partner needs, you think and take action to do just that, no promises, you put the work, expecting they notice.

And they do, the response is joy. Then cold again, something else but around the same lines.
You start to feel lacking, after a while you question whether you’re are failing to prove your feelings or you really are failing as a partner.

Sometimes you feel bad and question them, their narrative feels different from what you know about the facts, but precise and detailed enough that you doubt your own memories?

If you are too sure about how things went and pull back , then you get a different hot and cold. Cold first then warmth, maybe they are wrong or selfish and they don’t want to fight. Seems to smooth. Then when calm starts to settle in, again returning on it "that was painful, I want an apology " with the argument you thought you just cleared out.

Your partner makes you feel both their entire world, special and nothing, inadequate at the same time. And they self criticize a lot, makes you feel like you’re too selfish or shallow sometimes in comparison.

You put the work question your flaws and try to be better, and you keep getting hot and cold.

My wife is emotionally unavailable, is not narcissistic but some traits are scary similar.
Is very difficult there are moments when her emotions flow and you can feel they are genuine and intense , but then they freeze.

Is hard to describe but perhaps you understand, because if you know, you know.

What I now see is that I (we) were second to his own selfish need for sexual gratification and some attention. He didn’t have to try, he could be who ever he wanted to be and he got what he wanted. That obviously is still a kick in the guts but at least he can now see it and work on himself!

In my case she didn’t need sexual gratification, in her 3 affairs.
Only one, the one where she broke up with me, was both sexual and emotional.

The other 2 were likely emotional, I was her sexual partner and those men were her emotional fulfillment compartmentalized in the places they were.

At least according to her confessions.
You understand that I can’t, after so many years of lying and denial, believe her. I picture the worst, I feel all that was withdrawn from me by her choices was given to these men.

My trust is at zero, I am collecting trickles truth dispensed with an eye dropper, because she is emotionally shut down and I cannot feel she is fully honest.

Even if she is working, therapy, reading and bringing up her betrayal and figuring why she did it, I cannot believe or pressure her, because it backfires and she freezes, becoming defensive and minimizing.

The problem is that if I stay detached I am at peace and fine, I accept the past and her flaws and center on myself.

If I try to connect to her healing, I both feel good she is working on her flaws and gradually confessing new things, details and her disgust and regret for her choices feels real.

But if I connect I am vulnerable again. It doesn’t destroy me anymore, still is very painful to relive those old emotions.

I was always served edited narratives, not the truth, so I need to know, and I get drops I can’t make questions because she tries to answer but soon I feel that they clash with her shame and she begins to shut down. I suffer, she suffers.

On the other hand Ican integrate emotions naturally now, my pain is just in the moment, her pain is stuck.

And what I need from her is full disclosure, honestly and emotional intelligence to empathize with my pain.

I need her vulnerability to connect with my vulnerability.
When she tries her emotions always hit the wall of shame and she dissociates.

Dissociation not detachment, is different.

So for my well being and happiness I need to be detached. The consequences is relationship limbo, I can’t reciprocate her love and longing no matter how genuine it may be now, because as long as my needs for clarity are in limbo, there can’t be any R.

I stayed for my daughter for now, I am assessing. I can treat her like a woman, I like her, I can be playful, present, warm with and seductive, on the surface seems normal and I can do that effortlessly because I like this woman and I see that if I am regulated and centered all the family is co regulating naturally (meaning she and our daughter)

But I am emotionally detached, is not the marriage or relationship I want, looks more like boyfriend/ girlfriend with boundaries from my side that feels like I am treating her as a roommate I sleep with and sometimes I date.
I don’t want to make any future plans with her now. I have no filter for bs or drama, I respond with complete honesty and I don’t care if it hurts her feelings. A no is a no. I come first (my daughter too, I am speaking of us)

If you read my original childhood trauma I always wanted but never felt loved or lovable.

My deepest desire is to have a real and deep connection with the woman on my side in my life. I can give a woman all I have, I can also keep the excitement up, I am not a boring partner, that’s a trait that I was always good at. (The one she tried to suppress and then resented when I "complied")

I am not even sure how to describe it, it’s not a sexual need, on that side I never had to complain or got complaints.
I think it is an emotional starvation.
I don’t feel any thrill or fulfillment from being physically desired, yes it is an integral component of a relationship, kind of the cornerstone, obviously I need the attraction and closeness.

But I only ever experienced that, it stopped to be nice or validating to feel like "the hot guy" because that is not the thing I need from a woman, I need her to desire me, to love my feelings and flaws, my qualities my strengths and weaknesses.
It is stupid but I feel like I want to be loved as a person, not for how I look or what I have or what I can provide. That’s a corollary but there is more in a person, that’s the same thing I am attracted to in a woman, what’s inside her, not outside.

I need to feel "seen "

I thought she was capable of that, she was always telling me that she appreciated me for my essence the appearance was secondary, I believed her because she showed me her vulnerabilities since the start and she respected my vulnerabilities.

But then she hit me where it hurts the most, loyalty and trust.
I believed her and now I feel like I don’t know if I would never know if it was any of it real.

What she did reframed every thing and I do feel like an idiot, it fed in my deepest trauma fear that I am unlovable and unworthy. I can be desirable for a moment of escapism, but I am definitely replaceable.

Never felt as boyfriend/ husband material, which is what I always craved, every connection I had with a woman made me feel like a lover, in the most shallow interpretation of the word.

I think this experience changed me deeply and I am in a different place today.
The title here is about the past and the need.

Which is not a need for external validation, it’s a need for the emotional connection that I see everyday in others.
I need to know if I am delusional and having unrealistic expectations or what I seek is real.

Because I know I can live and survive no matter what, my heart is not broken, but it only ever known an emotional desert, there was never water besides what I poured, what I found until now it was never a oasis, it was only a mirage. Always.

Not enough valuable of a person to be worth committing to. In my case, not enough of a man, for her.

IMO, your WS was attempting to collect happiness FROM others, not understanding true happiness comes from within. Under these circumstances no single person is enough, especially after the limerence fades, and BTW, the AP can be anyone usable and disposable.

Seems to me you're completely aware that you're well self- examined and honest with yourself and what you want and need.

You're also maintaining stability for your daughter which is your good, right and proper duty as her father.

But I can't tell if you're okay with the performative way you're using your WW. For sex, emotional experiences, etc. You seem aware of it, but you don't seem bothered by it. You'll say this:

I need to feel "seen "

... and then comprehensively describe her apparent inability to do so internally, and unwillingness to do so externally. Coupled with her lack of progress in self-directed development in that area.

And you're telling us about it, rather than telling us that you had that conversation with her about it and how it went.

This vaguely means you're actively manipulating her to extract varying types of pleasure from her. You're aware she isn't changing and doesn't really know how, but your maintaining the status quo out of a desire for...what? Convenience?

Now I'm not lobbing judgement, there, convenience is the main reason I didn't start over after my fWW/concubine did what she did. (I did demonstrate I was completely willing and able to do so, which is why she turned around and chased R and a continued relationship as hard as she did.)

Now I am not telling you what to do. Just be honest about what the situation is, and what you're really getting out of it continuing.

*Edit typo*

[This message edited by Mindjob at 3:39 PM, Sunday, February 15th]

If you read my original childhood trauma I always wanted but never felt loved or lovable.

You are not alone in this. I certainly suffered from this. The question is: what are you going to do to recover?

The cure seems to be: to realize that you are now an adult, able to take care of yourself. You know what messages you needed to hear, and you can give those same messages to yourself now. In fact, some people report healing by giving themselves the nurturing messages they miss(ed). IOW, you are going to have to move from seeing yourself as a Victim of bad parenting to seeing yourself as an autonomous human being who can parent a child ... and yourself. And we all have to be parent ourselves.

But I only ever experienced that, it stopped to be nice or validating to feel like "the hot guy" because that is not the thing I need from a woman, I need her to desire me....

I think English as your 2nd/3rd/4th/? language is getting in the way here, so I'm asking for clarification.

I read you to say, 'I was viewed as a hot guy, but I really want to be desired.' Isn't the hot guy desired? Or are you saying you think you were viewed as a sexual object, and you wanted to be desired as a full human being?

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:54 PM, Sunday, February 15th]

But I can't tell if you're okay with the performative way you're using your WW. For sex, emotional experiences, etc. You seem aware of it, but you don't seem bothered by it. You'll say this:

What I meant there was the human attachment need, it’s the need to be accepted for who you are, by lovers, family, friends.

Intimacy is deeper with your partner, so this need is stronger, because you are at the most vulnerable.

And you're telling us about it, rather than telling us that you had that conversation with her about it and how it went.

I explained elsewhere, I mostly write to voice my past feelings, because they were suppressed for so long, unspoken, so I can see them, understand them, dissect them and having them confronted by others who understand and shared a similar experience.

I understand that this can lead to confusion, is half sharing half top down therapy work that I never did before.

This vaguely means you're actively manipulating her to extract varying types of pleasure from her. You're aware she isn't changing and doesn't really know how, but your maintaining the status quo out of a desire for...what? Convenience?

Not really, though I understand why you took it this way.

I am not extracting pleasure nor manipulating her. Just the way I understand sex or intimacy makes it impossible to be pleasant if manipulation is involved.

I give you the short version of how it feels to me: sex is the emotional and physical manifestation of a connection between two people.

If it’s not reciprocal is empty and unappealing. It’s very personal but along the change I had physical impacting changes in my sexuality as well. Not going too deep here, just know selfish satisfaction just doesn’t work anymore. It doesn’t work as in there is zero physical response. Being a guy, what you fear it simply can’t happen.

It is very simple: I like her as a woman.

She is a cheater, not partner material.

Love is gone. Suppressed or disappeared forever I still don’t know. But is not here now.

Attraction still exists

All of this is in the open, no secrets, it hurts her because she’s in love as she claims. She still wants this connection and I am not walled off to it. I just hold my boundaries.

In all our shared lives there’s respect and care for the other person, is just on a different level than before because she has not healed yet so we are not R.

You can say is in between roommates and dating. You like the girl, she likes you, but you are not sure if you want her as the mother of your children just yet.

From the outside you would not say there’s anything wrong with our couple, we look happy and our child is regulated and happy.

Only one person , her friend, knows what is up, and her therapist. We have our moments of facing the past, she has her healing, for the rest is a man and a woman. For some people this kind of relationship might even feel as a normal successful marriage.

I am the one who feels it’s not enough, and she also would like me to reflect back again what I was able to give her before.

That’s where the problem lies.

I think English as your 2nd/3rd/4th/? language is getting in the way here, so I'm asking for clarification.

I read you to say, 'I was viewed as a hot guy, but I really want to be desired.' Isn't the hot guy desired? Or are you saying you think you were viewed as a sexual object, and you wanted to be desired as a full human being?

Yes is the 3rd language and unfortunately I never studied it, I just kind of picked it up during summer holidays, speaking with tourists, so oftentimes it is ass.

What I meant is I wanted to be desired as a complete human being, the good, the bad, the vulnerable and messy parts.

I always felt like those side of myself turned people away, making me feel unlovable and repulsive.

Problem wasn’t to feel desired, it was always superficial and shallow, so I never felt reciprocated connection beyond that. I am afraid that it might be the same with my WW, there was no love, she just liked to keep me available

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 6:17 PM, Sunday, February 15th]

This sounds exactly like my wife coco.
Is it familiar to you this kind of stuff?

Sort of. I never felt like I was seen as an individual by my mother. I couldn't possibly have likes, dislikes, wants, needs, or opinions that were different from hers. I didn't feel accepted by her. This was obvious, tho. There was never a time when I thought she did see and accept me. I can't remember ever feeling loved by her.

Things were different with my dad. I always felt loved and seen by my dad. I did not feel completely accepted. I was shamed for doing things that my dad thought were wrong or bad. Rather than being addressed as mistakes that needed education, my behavior was addressed as an infraction that needed to be punished. So, while I did feel loved by one person in my life, I didn't feel fully accepted by anyone.

Sometimes you feel bad and question them, their narrative feels different from what you know about the facts, but precise and detailed enough that you doubt your own memories?

This sounds like gaslighting to me. My mother did this. I didn't realize it until I was in my late 30s when a therapist pointed it. She said my mother seemingly having a completely different pov of the same experience must've made me question my reality and feel crazy. It did! Once I was aware of it, it's power over me was gone.

I want to give a woman's pov on the idea that sexual attraction and physical intimacy is prerequisite to love. For me, it's the opposite. I need to feel an emotional connection, emotional intimacy, emotional safety before I can connect physically/sexually.

It took me about 2 weeks from the time my H returned from a deployment to feel emotionally connected enough to want to have sex with him, even after years of being in a relationship. Every time he left, that connection was broken for me. It had to be rebuilt before I felt comfortable (safe?) enough for sex.

Wrt your WW having you for sex and other men for only emotional support/connection, unless they were never near each other, I don't believe this. No offense to the men, but I seriously doubt any man is going to invest that much emotional romance into a relationship if they aren't getting sex. And, even if they were never physically together, there are other ways of having sex, phone sex, sexting, live and recorded video. I'm not buying what she's selling.