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Tell her that in order for you two to be together,you must divorce her,she has to give you everything in the divorce and full custody of the kids,

That is not how divorce works in the United States. The state administers divorce and gets a say in custody. Unless there is evidence shown that one parent is unfit, child custody will usually be 50/50. In many states, even with a mediator, the final terms must be approved by a judge.

she has to give you everything in the divorce and full custody of the kids,

Their child shouldn’t be used as a pawn. That’s terrible advice. This isn’t a game. Regardless of what happened between the two of them, what’s best for their child needs to be considered. That doesn’t mean they should stay together for the sake of their daughter, but they certainly shouldn’t be using the child to play games. In fact that whole suggestion reeks of playing games.

[This message edited by landclark at 4:31 PM, September 8th (Sunday)]

Could you make a list of things about your wife that you wish were different, or changes that she could make that would make you feel more comfortable with her? Do not feel bound by anything in the real world; the key to it is to write a description of how your wife would be if she could change to be a good life partner for you.

There is nothing she can do to be a good life partner. Not for me anyways. I know in my gut I can never accept her.

M1965 I always value your kind words and opinion. I believe my WW does too. Please continue to support her with your wisdom.

I will tell you only one thing. Tommorow go to the layer office and file for divorce. Tell her that in order for you two to be together,you must divorce her,she has to give you everything in the divorce and full custody of the kids,and when divorce is final,then you will date her. And she will then have a chance to win you over again. And if you two remarried again,she would have to sign a prenup that if she cheats again,you get everything again. And when you tell her that,you will know for sure if she is worth to be with.

Come on man. Has anything I've written here given you the opinion i'm capable of that? I would never use my daughter in that way. Those of you agreeing should really wonder what you haven't gotten past in your own life.

Those of you proposing I divorce and never look back, are saying that without being in my shoes.

I'll give you a few reasons why its not that easy for me.

We have a 5 year old daughter. The Pro-divorce team usually doesn't have kids, your kids are much older, or your wayward had no interest in reconciling.

I love my home and would have to sell it. It's the only home my daughter knows. Her tree swing is here. We've buried dogs here. I hear ya its just material things, but to me it meant ALOT. I moved around constantly as a child. I was in 3 school districts in one school year alone. Offering stability to her means everything to me.

I have no family here. No family in this time zone or climate. Now imagine having a young child with no support system. If i have to stay at work late, and cant get her from school. What happens? When i leave for work, 2 hours before school starts for her in the morning, what do I do with her? that will be a weekly problem.

I have a good job, but its 45 minutes away from where we live, her school, etc. Anything closer would be a huge pay cut. Financially I know i'll survive, but it will be going from comfortable middle class to lower income. Single bedroom apartment, or a 30 year old trailer in a bad neighborhood. Again not the end of the world. But it still sucks. Child support and young child, so your looking at least 13 years of that.

Going to IC. Pretty much all of you say is mandatory. Guess what I wont be able to afford post-divorce? I wont be able to afford to go once a week, like I currently am. I've looked into insurance, its not going to help cover it.

My dogs, this is a big one. We have two awesome dogs. We have had them since puppies, roughly 7 years old. They both have lived on 2 acres of land away from everybody. Never leash trained, hate other dogs, bark at everything. They have a good life, and putting them in an apartment would be a horror show for them. Plus it'll cost more to keep them there. I'll have to find good homes for them, where they can still have some peace. Hopefully together, hopefully on a farm or something.

Another big one, I feel like I owe her. Like you guys wont let me forget, I am a WS also. I broke her heart years ago, don't I owe her a second chance? rhetorical question, please don't answer.

After saying all of that, my gut says its time to end this marriage. That's a lot of shit to digest, deal with and move forward.

There is no winner here. So those of you wishing to gloat for this outcome, please do not.

Not for me to tell you what to do other than you need to give this a bit more time. Your wife sounds remorseful. She seems to be doing work on herself. To understand what is broken.

I can totally understand if this is a deal breaker for you. But give R a chance for a few more months.

[This message edited by Mene at 10:15 PM, September 8th (Sunday)]

I’m sorry that you are where you are. You and your daughter have done nothing to deserve this, but you two will be paying the heavy cost of what your wife has done.

Just do what you must do to get out of the hell that your wife has created.

Take everything one day at a time. Things will get better, never as quickly as we want, but they will get better

Stay strong, and hug your daughter often.

I didnt say to really go trugh that,I said,go and file for divorce,to show her that you are serious. You dont have to go all the way,divorce can be stopped any time. And when you file,then you ask her. Dont have to be full custody,make it primary custody. And house and money,all goes to you. Ask her,and then you will se that she will not do that for you. So,all that talk about she will do what ever it takes is just bullsheet. She is just covering her own ass. That is what I was trying to say.

[This message edited by DjDjani at 11:01 AM, September 9th (Monday)]

Neanderthal

The following are excerpts from an earlier post I made on your thread:

R is so much more than getting over the affair. In fact, it’s not really about that at all. It’s more focused on you maybe looking at your wife +5 years down the line and thinking “thank God I gave this marriage a chance, despite her affair” and your wife looking at you and thinking “thank God he gave me a chance despite the affair”. Since R is tough work and takes TIME it’s really a valid proposition to stop for good time and really consider if this woman is the one you want to spend your life with.

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Thinking you can’t forgive her is definitely a valid reason for divorce because a future marriage based on resentment isn’t really a great idea. But be clear on why you can’t forgive her and understand what forgiveness means. IF you reconcile then I hope you never forgive her affair as in implying it was OK. But I would hope that it no longer becomes a major factor in your interactions with her. It definitely will be for the next couple of years, but if you decide to R and do so seriously that will demise.

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Thinking you can’t forgive her is definitely a valid reason for divorce because a future marriage based on resentment isn’t really a great idea. But be clear on why you can’t forgive her and understand what forgiveness means. IF you reconcile then I hope you never forgive her affair as in implying it was OK. But I would hope that it no longer becomes a major factor in your interactions with her. It definitely will be for the next couple of years, but if you decide to R and do so seriously that will demise.

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One think to keep in mind is this: If you decide to divorce do so because YOU want it, not as a means to get revenge or to punish your wife. It would be terrible for you to be miserable 3-4 years from now because you still think you could have worked things out, but your pride stood in your way.

I get your need for divorce, but truthfully I wonder if you are basing your decision on the… correct grounds.

Generally when a spouse decides to D there is a sense of acceptance, a peace because a big, serious decision has been reached. I don’t get that from your posts… I therefore wonder if you have reached your decision based on trauma, pain or a feeling that you don’t have options.

DON’T GET ME WRONG! There are plenty of success stories here on SI (of we define success as getting out of infidelity) that are based on D. I would like to think my very own story shows decisiveness in terminating a relationship. But I got that sense of calm, sense that the dice had been cast, the sense I was doing 100% the correct thing.

Have you considered a formal separation? Maybe that would be a step to allow you distance and time to heal? If that gives you the sense of peace I am trying to describe above then D might be so much more calming and peaceful.

Im not telling you to really divorce her,it is your life and you will do what you think is the best. I am only telling you that you need to see her for what she realy is,a lying cheater who is ready to throw a marriage and the family for some new dick! And all that talking about she being sorry and will do everything is just bullsheet. She like almost all other cheaters are only really sorry becouse they got cought.

[This message edited by DjDjani at 11:16 AM, September 9th (Monday)]

Neanderthal,

This all just seems so unfair. Nothing about an affair is fair at all. Our need to tip the scales to make everything balanced doesn't really work in this case. There are no winners, but a lot of people that stand to lose things they care about.

Unfortunately, I believe that a lot of the people that are pushing for divorce are obviously very angry and projecting their own situations, or maybe even hoping to live vicariously through someone else. That's not a dig at them at all, they have experienced great pain, just as you and I have. I just think that maybe due to their own circumstances, it seems like a logical choice for them, they're for everyone. I'm in the opposite camp. I'm looking at things with the "reconciliation" glasses. we each have our own unique perspectives. Not saying that they are wrong and I'm right or vice versa. This is ultimately your decision to make with your wife.

It's not an easy decision to make. Having to weigh your decision against anger and a need for justice vs what is ideally best for you and your family is tough, made it even worse because you shouldn't have to make this decision. You are put in a terrible situation.

I think you're doing the right thing right now. You're looking at things as to what you both have to lose. In my opinion, which is just that, my opinion, maybe you can try to lower your rage. There is no definitive timeline on when you have to make that decision to R or D. You can stay in your situation and see if there is any future. You could divorce tomorrow, six months from now, a year from now. Understand that you always have that option on the table. Look at what you have right now though. You are living in a house that you both have bought, all the stuff that's in there is shared property. Your dog's, your yard, your children. You and her get to enjoy that as you try to sort through this mess. Maybe in time, your heart will soften. Maybe she can show you the things that attracted you to her initially. She might still be in there! She might value you more today than she ever did, including the time that you guys can share. Again, I don't know you or your wife, nor do I know every nuance of your relationship. I just personally think that you sound like a good guy, who also made some mistakes as well. Maybe now you can both deal with those choices that each of you has made in the past and grow to a new relationship. You both have a lot invested in what you have currently. I think you owe it to yourself to find out if there can be any future together.

I would like to think my very own story shows decisiveness in terminating a relationship. But I got that sense of calm, sense that the dice had been cast, the sense I was doing 100% the correct thing.

I don't want to speak for you, but If you had a child at that moment. I doubt you would feel a sense of calm. I know whatever decision I make is going to affect my daughters life forever.

I'm not doing this out of anger or a sense of justice. Do you believe I would throw away everything I've worked so hard for out of spite? I cant picture us 5 years down the road together. I don't believe I can forgive, I will resent her.

I truly don't believe she is remorseful. I see the selfishness daily. I see her anger towards me. It's building, and that worries me.

I also read her thread this weekend. For the first time, BTW. I was sad to see that she was writing as if I was reading it all along. Just another tool to win. Nothing in there was genuine. She avoided certain questions like the plague, and did a great job of saying what everyone wanted to hear. Remember she's a people pleaser, she wants you all to love her too.

She wont even answer any of my questions with her own feelings anymore. It's all verbatim what the books or SI say.

I do not believe her story/timeline. I do not believe she doesn't care for him anymore. I do not believe she wanted it to end. I do not believe she knows how to love.

In the end I still love her and I always will. That's not good enough anymore. I guess I'd rather be alone.

maybe you can try to lower your rage.

Ha, there hasn't been any rage. Ask my WW, I've been as low key and calm as possible. I don't raise my voice or yell. I don't have rage yet. Scorched earth anger is definitely expected, but it hasn't even hit yet.

I just personally think that you sound like a good guy, who also made some mistakes as well. Maybe now you can both deal with those choices that each of you has made in the past and grow to a new relationship

There it is again, I owe her.

Yea. WS are great at snowballing people. Glad you see thru it.

Hey man, you don’t Have to justify your decision to anybody. You’re the one that knows her you’re the one that is making a decision.

You are the one to decide if infidelity is a dealbreaker for you.

What other people think that really matter.

I don't want to speak for you, but If you had a child at that moment. I doubt you would feel a sense of calm. I know whatever decision I make is going to affect my daughters life forever.

It already has. Even young kids aren't stupid. They sense things. That had nothing to do with you but you are going to have to deal with it.

I also read her thread this weekend. For the first time, BTW. I was sad to see that she was writing as if I was reading it all along. Just another tool to win. Nothing in there was genuine. She avoided certain questions like the plague, and did a great job of saying what everyone wanted to hear. Remember she's a people pleaser, she wants you all to love her too.

Self preservation mode upfront. Not uncommon but that probably won't last long. If that's all she's putting into this the chance of a false R and/or repeat is higher.

At least you see it and know the score. Many only see what they want to see.

[This message edited by Marz at 4:17 PM, September 9th (Monday)]

Your assessment of her post is the same vibe I was getting. Some of the post read like they're for your consumption. Of course we really don't know because there's also the more import actions and body language that counts.

Besides ignoring your plea to help save the marriage, she was spending a lot of time with his kids, and was bringing your daughter around OM and his kids. From my vantage point, it sure does look like she was testing the waters to see what a blended family was going to be like.

It's obvious that the trajectory of the affair was heading quickly to her giving you the ILYBNILWY talk. In this case, the OM was not looking to take the affair into a real relationship but that doesn't mean he didn't future fake your WW in order to turn up the sexual heat. So there's a good chance that they talked about what a future together would be like. WWs eat that shit up.

So I can understand how you find it hard to believe that she no longer has no feelings for him. One day she's totally on team OM, declaring her love for the guy and the next day no more feelings? Yea, that doesn't make sense. So if you see her moping around, it can be her going through withdrawal for the dopamine hits she got from running around being "bad."

The one thing that leads me to believe that she may be sincere in that she no longer has feelings for him is not that it turned out he was a serial cheating POS or that he had an STD. It was that you boldly took action and literally kicks his ass in front of her. Her inner hamster brain instantly saw that you were the better man.

[This message edited by Jsmart at 7:56 PM, September 9th (Monday)]

Neanderthal, it's possible - and imperative - that at some point you forgive her. Otherwise she owns you forever.

Divorce, move on, at some point forgive. For your own sanity. I've been there, I know.

You sound really split down the middle, stuck between two unappetizing options. Maybe the thing to do would be to take some time to grieve for the option which is unavailable?

What most of us want more than anything at around this point past DDay... is a time machine. We want the cheating not to have happened and for things to be the way they were. Processing that loss is akin to grieving a death. We go through all the stages repeatedly, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and finally acceptance. These stages cycle in no particular order it seems until we finally arrive at some form of acceptance which sticks. In the interim, we feel stuck because we WANT that third choice, the one we can't have, even though we know it's illogical.

Grief can't be circumvented. It takes its due. Struggling against it seem to only increase its grip. Maybe the thing to do right now... is nothing? Take some time to feel your feelings and grieve your losses?

Strength to you.

There it is again, I owe her.

Dude, I totally did not mean that you owe her anything. Actually, I believe I told you if anything, that you owe it to yourself to at least try to see if anything was left, but know where did I say that you owed anything to her.

I had a family friend tell me that I owed it to her to at least try. Not only did I explode on that delusional thinking that I owed her anything, but that person is no longer in my life. Nothing could be farther from the truth thinking that you owe her anything.

I just wanted to clarify that. I'm truly sorry if something that I said came across as that, wasn't my intention at all. I was trying to offer a different perspective, which it didn't sound that you are very receptive to. I get that. Maybe I'm just not eloquent enough to be posting in the JFO forum.

I truly hope that whatever your decision is, you could find peace and happiness in it. I'm going to refrain from posting in this thread, I don't want you to think that I I'm trying to influence you against a decision that it seems you've already made. I guess that's the issue with trying to convey a message over text, the words could be construed to mean something totally different.

Trying2copeinMD

Dude, I totally did not mean that you owe her anything

I'm sorry. To say I am hyper sensitive would be an understatement. Thank you for clarifying. Do as you did, explain yourself. Don't stop posting.

Jsmart, are you out of your mind??

It was that you boldly took action and literally kicks his ass in front of her. Her inner hamster brain instantly saw that you were the better man. This type of thing happens at the subconscious level. The few threads that we've had where the BH did something similar usually have the same result, a WW that's instantly defogged.

What is it with the posts today calling women out as being without honor and as hamsters? I am a BW but these generalizations about WWs are way out of line!

[This message edited by Odonna at 7:22 PM, September 9th (Monday)]

To me any wayward (not gender specific) has no honor.

I might add. Losing it is pretty easy. Getting it back. Very difficult.

[This message edited by Marz at 7:48 PM, September 9th (Monday)]

Neanderthal,

It sounds like you are still making up your mind and that it totally OK. You have been decisive and am not playing games, which at this stage are the really big problems.