SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

BS treading NOT gently.

He asked the natural BS question "So it's OK for you to cheat on me for such a long time but not OK for me?"

Like the other poster suggested, this is not a natural BS question. Sweetie, everything about his behavior is WAY beyond the norm for a BS.

He called you to a hotel where he probably already fucked that girl. Tells you that he can't wait to call her. He is torturing you. Where is your child when all this conversation is going on.

He is a Sadistic Fuck.

He started planning for the future with me and said he was glad he didn't piss me off for good

He's the spider, you are the fly, he thinks you are going to try to escape the web so he is trying to pull you back in.

I think we're actually in R!

I am speechless.

I thanked him and told him I am very grateful that he wants to make things work between us and I would definitely not take it for granted.

He is a very cruel narcissist, and thanking him validates him and his abusive behavior.

I'm very happy that we agree to move forward to try to stay together in such a clear agreement.

You were there and heard what he said, is there really a clear agreement?

I know I would not screw up this time around.

What about him and his responsibilities to not damage you mentally and emotionally and provide a safe and secure home for your child? Real men, real fathers don't act the way he does.

I would bet these last statements are the honeymoon phase after an abusive incident. He's going to wait a bit and then do as he damn well pleases, he'll just bide his time...

From how you describe him, I wouldn't doubt that his daughter is just a pawn in his game, he does love you, loves abusing you.

He says he loves your child, but what does he actually do with her?

Thanks for the encouragement. I definitely recognize it's a roller coaster ride. BH is very down with the mind movies playing, I apologized for making him feel so bad, he accepted saying "I know." I wish I know how to help him with the mind movies, but I'm afraid it'll have to be time.

why2008, I thought it was a "natural" BS question because I saw a thread on JFO or General about the double standard for BS and WS and many BS seem to agree that it's infuriating for a WS to say that it's unforgivable for the BS to have RA. But it seems not all BS agree with that view.

He called me to the hotel because he was feeling sentimental reminescing about our past and missed me. He said he only kissed her. I belive him. He doesn't lie (never did). He's a very honest guy. The way he went on an on about how much relief and happiness he got from the other women was torturous for me to hear, but I don't think he intended to hurt me. He was opening himself, his pain to me and I appreciate the honesty. DD was napping at the time. I gave my ultimatum by telling him how much it hurt me, and it made him think about the impact on me. He told me he doesn't want to see me feel hurt. It's moving to see his compassion side for me showing up.

I agree that sometimes his actions did seem cruel, but he's not a bad person at heart. I hurt him deeply with my A, and him giving me another chance is an enormous gift. I had to thank him for the gift of attempting R.

I think a lot of his decision is based on his love for DD. He doesn't want to spend a day without seeing DD. But like he said at least part of it is because he still loves me too. He admits he tends to revert back to being a crappy person easily - he has always feared that he's just a loser like his dad, but he's not. He plays with DD, takes care of her, and often knows how to handle her better than me. I hurt for him when I see him beat himself up. He loves very truely. He just doesn't always deal with emotions and frustrations in healthy ways. His agreement does tell me that he wants to work on having a more respectful relationship with me. I know there will be hard times in the future. I am learning to stand firm about my boundaries so that we can interact in a more healthy relationship.

Hmmm...

So, maybe this guy is behaving like a sociopath right now, looking for the next chance to destroy his wife a little more. It's possible, but it will show itself soon enough if it's true. There needs to be NO tolerance of extreme behavior for the sake of the relationship, as well as for safety.

Yeah, it IS basically inevitable that things are going to slide back. Being prepared for it is important.

There need to be deal-breakers on both sides to prevent extreme behavior, and it needs to be made clear that crossing those lines means an absolute end to reconciliation. Agreement on these issues should be made a priority before things destabilize. If boundaries are maintained very well, the slips will likely be minimal and non-destructive, and can serve as times to grow.

Beyond that, it's just a whole lot of hard work, but I do think it's possible with IC and MC.

I would say it is EXTREMELY common for BS's to SAY right to their WS's face that it would be fair play for them to have an affair, and how they would like the WS to experience the pain they have felt. I've certainly yelled that statement more than once right after D-day.

but to actually act out on it... no that is not common at all.

My own WS told me a couple of times how he wished I would go out and have my own affair so that I would get off my moral high horse. Which I thought was a really disgusting thing to suggest. I think your story perfectly illustrates how incredibly damaging and life altering it can be.

At heart, I think very few people are truly evil. I don't doubt he has many good sides, but how he treats you is NOT one of them.

If he truly loves your DD then he will work on changing for her sake. I think this may be a point you can use to help guide him to therapy.

Personal opinion, your relationship is toxic, but you are not in the mindset to leave him. There needs to be work done on both sides.

most importantly...

(((((burntashes)))))

You are like the rest of us, just muddling through the best you can. I can imagine the stress, anxiety and anguish you have been going through have been severe. I;m sorry you are on the BS side now too. Neither BS or WS is a good place to live.

BA- I hope the clear understanding the 2 of you have for R includes INTENSIVE counseling for both of you individually and together. Good Luck to you.

Doesn't anyone else see this as pure manipulation on his part?

Fallen- abso-freaking-lutely. That's why I said I hope they are signing up for intensive counseling. I'm hoping that if Burnt Ashes starts counseling she'll see him for what he really is.

Sorry BA, I do wish you the best.

[This message edited by Pentup at 7:13 AM, September 29th (Wednesday)]

I do, Fallen, but it's not my place on this board to give her the 2x4 I'd have applied to a BS in this situation.

At best, I can say that what he's done up to and including this "reconciliation" doesn't pass the sniff test when asking myself the question "Is this man stable?" At best, I can say he's an abuser. That, at least, there's hope for. If he's what I suspect he is, a sociopath, there's not much hope, because now she's seen the real him and he'll grow to hate her for it, as all sociopaths seem to do with their partners who have peeked behind the mask.

Burnt, you need to set boundaries with him, but MOST IMPORTANTLY you need to set boundaries with yourself. You need to establish clearly within your own mind that if he acts out again in any damaging way you'll leave. I think this is a post-abuse honeymoon cycle, and I think your next go-round is going to be worse.

God bless you, sweetheart. You've been through Hell on Earth. I'm keeping you in my prayers.

Fallen..I see

1. manipulation

2. mental abuse

3. verbal abuse

4. physical abuse

5. blameshifting

6. gaslighting

7. disrespect

I'm not a doctor but she also displays battered women's syndrome..protecting the abuser. Believing everything is her fault.

He knows this and takes advantage of this.

He clearly states that you have no backbone BA, but when you display a backbone he responds positively to it. (However it is just more manipulation).

burntashes..you may have done wrong..but what your husband is doing is just plain cruel.

You will resent him for it in the long run.

many BS seem to agree that it's infuriating for a WS to say that it's unforgivable for the BS to have RA

ba this is not just a ra here, what he is doing to you is downright cruel...just like there are all types of cheating, there are all types of revenge behavior....what he is doing is not an ra...having you watch him fuck another woman is not an ra, that is abuse in a very raw form...having you pick him up from a hotel where he was with another woman, what he did and did not do with her is inconsequential, having you pick him up after the event is abuse yet again

this man is taking advantage of your remorse, this man is taking advantage of YOU...

He called me to the hotel because he was feeling sentimental reminescing about our past and missed me

no, he wanted to rub it in your face

.

He doesn't lie (never did). He's a very honest guy.

is he honest enough to "see" his behavior is abusive

and honey, there is honesty such as telling someone when you need to be accountable and then there is honesty so that you can hurt them...

his brand of honesty is meant to hurt you....

The way he went on an on about how much relief and happiness he got from the other women was torturous for me to hear, but I don't think he intended to hurt me. He was opening himself, his pain to me and I appreciate the honesty.

i am sorry but that is exactly his intent, to hurt you...brutal honesty is not only not called for here, but again is abusive

if he is such an honest and good man, when did he begin to believe that fucking another woman while you watched was acceptable, and having you arrange it nevertheless...to me it sounds like the olden days, a couple of centuries ago, when stoning was a popular method of punishment...it is a sick and twisted way to punish you, that his intent not for his own happiness....

I hurt him deeply with my A,

yes you did, and he is a big boy who should be held accountable for his own actions....IS HE???

i really hope that you both get into some intensive therapy, most especially because you share a child and she deserves the best you have to give...

when you know better you do better....

Doesn't anyone else see this as pure manipulation on his part?

The minute I read that she had laid down an ultimatum (too funny in an unfunny way) I already knew how this story is going to end. It's not over yet, and it's going to be ugly. He will resent her for taking away his "happiness." He will resent her for exposing his ugliness. He will be all full of how dare she and what about me.

At this point, there's nothing that hasn't been said or done to BA that would not have convinced anybody else to run screaming for the hills. All I can do is reiterate to BA: if you need help at any time, do not be afraid or ashamed to ask for it. Do not feel like you have exhausted your resources here. Many of us have walked this road before, and we know, we KNOW that shame is what keeps up locked in, too afraid of failure to admit that the people we love are not what they should be. Please check in. Please let us know how you are. Please do not ever feel like you can't turn to somebody, anybody here.

Doesn't anyone else see this as pure manipulation on his part?

No, it's gone way past that. If this poster is legitimate then this is way beyond this board.

BA, his quick flip is another classic sign, but we're in another cycle. Last thread started the same. Everyone pulled out the stops pointing out his abusive behavior, you stating you saw it and set your boundaries. You posted that Saturday and picked him up at a hotel after he was with another woman that same weekend.

I'm a little baffled as someone that is usually this abusive is also very controling of all outside contact and monitors internet and phone usage like crazy.

to run screaming for the hills.

That's the absolute best advice and only advice. Not MC, not "helping" him heal, not even being in the same physical vacinity of this man.

I fear that none of this will matter and, BA, that's why I begged you to please get your daughter to the safety of a stable family, whether that be a relative or a trusted friend.

My heart breaks for you and your situation, but you are a 35 year old woman who makes choices (as you've shown). You have the ability to choose to defy him (as you've shown) yet you are volunteering to stay. That's also your choice. You don't have the right to make that choice for your daughter.

Please look closely in the mirror and ask yourself if you want her to grow up and look back at you from the exact same situation...if she even survives this one.

[This message edited by uncertainone at 8:21 AM, September 29th (Wednesday)]

Doesn't anyone else see this as pure manipulation on his part?

Yes. It's classic abuser behavior and part of the cycle.

http://www.domesticviolence.org/cycle-of-violence/

I am speechless and I wonder how soon we might see in the news burnashes' real name without even knowing.

Veritas said it best.

All I can do is reiterate to BA: if you need help at any time, do not be afraid or ashamed to ask for it. Do not feel like you have exhausted your resources here. Many of us have walked this road before, and we know, we KNOW that shame is what keeps up locked in, too afraid of failure to admit that the people we love are not what they should be. Please check in. Please let us know how you are. Please do not ever feel like you can't turn to somebody, anybody here.

quadruple ditto what FRM said....BA, please, PLEASE, be careful.....his intentions are NOT genuine....

Lots of posts and lots of information to soak in here BA. All I can do is pull it back to a basic statement.

I think we're actually in R!

No, as of this moment, you are not.

R = two people working together to address both their own individual issues as well as those between them as a couple.

Right now, you have words claiming to stop hurtful actions....for now....with no guarantee it won't start again.

To start a checklist of items that would tell you that you are in R, I would need to check off all of the following items (any one off the list and I would not consider the relationship in R):

Full transparency in both directions.

NC with all OP (your BH cannot have contact with the "waitress" or any other woman he let cross the line any more than you can have contact with an OM).

Both of you in IC. You to work all the way through your issues leading to the A and your acceptance of being an abuse victim. Him to work through his unhealthy "healing " efforts as well as to deal with his role as abuser.

After IC starts to take hold, then MC to work the issues between you.

Hard and fast defined boundaries with immediate consequences on both sides. You cheat, he's out. He cheats or abuses you, you're out. No delays. No stall tactics. No promises to change. Three strikes and you're out, and at this point you've already got two strikes and have fouled off several pitches!

If the answer to any of these points is no, or even not yet, then you are not in R.

And yes, Fallen, I see this as a control driven person continuing to abuse that control by playing to the emotions that BA is going through.

I feel exactly the same way as myworldjustended...

VERY SCARY.

BA, I wish you would save yourself and your daughter...

BS here, please listen to us....this is not right for you or your DD.

Yes I was one of those BS that made my WH imagine me with other men on DD, but not in a million years would it ever happen.

Bluntly two wrongs NEVER make it right.

Take care of your DD and yourself.

The current behaviour your BS is exhibiting is not healthy for him our his family.

((hugs))

The way he went on an on about how much relief and happiness he got from the other women was torturous for me to hear, but I don't think he intended to hurt me.

This man made you arrange a prostitute for him. He calls you to pick him up from a hotel rendezvous. He goes on and on about how wonderful all the other women are. If you think that this man is not intending to hurt you then I can't think of anything to say to help you.

I'm so sorry but I feel like I am watching a train wreck in slow motion. The light you see at the end of the tunnel is a TRAIN and we are all screaming to get off the tracks but you keep assuring us that the light won't hurt you.

For your sake, I sincerely hope you are right. I just wouldn't bet my child's well being on it.