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Tesla,

But if I file then would she be served? That is, she would know about it (?) And if she does then that would sabotage the whole point of the separation, no? Specifically she'd freak and that would be it: end of separation, beginning of divorce.

Abbondad, please don't enter S with the intent that *this* will be what wakes her up, finally. That's not detaching at all. Detaching isn't just about not worrying about her issues. It also means that yes, you're facing up to the end of the marriage. The end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine... it takes time to detach that much, but if detaching isn't about preparing for D, then it seems you're trying to manipulate her? It's a co-D thing not be able to let go, and it sounds like you're still trying to control the outcome. Why does it matter to you how she views a D filing? She is probably counting on her ability to do what she wants while keeping you on a string. A D filing shows you're not putting up with that any longer.

Also, if you're trying to detach, absolutely be civil, but you'll have to drop the loving. That's not your relationship any more. Strictly business.

The point of separation is separation. You are separating from her, she is separating from you. You are both working on your issues. Great.

But...what if while she is working on her issues she decides she's done, she freaks out about not having the kids, decides to pick them up and go somewhere with them. (Because, you know, unremorseful wayward spouses are kinda unpredictable like that.) You have no legal protection in place.

YOu are being so careful of her feelings...of how she feels about the marriage...of getting her to feel something about the marriage. You are losing sight of a potnetially very important thing here...what are the children's best interests in this state of separation. I think you are remiss if you don't have something down in writing regarding your co-parenting arrangement. If you are separating, the issue needs to be addressed and it needs to be addressed in a way that is legally binding. If that means that you have to file, then do it because it is in the best interest of the kids. Fuck what's easiest and best for her.

Just curious, why no mention of NC with the OM during S? Will that be the final deal breaker?

Also, if you're trying to detach, absolutely be civil, but you'll have to drop the loving. That's not your relationship any more. Strictly business.

I agree. You can be polite to one another, no name calling etc etc...but loving? Just more confusion for the kids.

You can file without serving her (and you're generally given a certain amount of time to do it before they close the case), but the records are usually public, and she may receive mail from a lawyer offering a free consult or something like that, so I would not treat it as something secret.

I find myself becoming more and more indifferent to her "issues" and the BS overall. Not all the time. I still panic and cry, but the intervals are getting longer. I hope this is a good sign and I am on my path to detachment.

Gently AD, and I mean this with all due respect for your current situation... because I think you are a classic codependent, you need to take baby steps as you move though this process. For that reason alone, I believe your statement above is a *good* sign. The more "indifferent" you become to her "issues", the more you'll detach. For you, that may have to be done *one* issue at a time. Doesn't really matter bro. The *key* point is that you've begun to do it. Now the next *key* point will be to move onto the next issue and detach from it...then the next and so on. As long as you continue to stay the course and don't back slide that *is* progress my friend.

So... be strong and stay the course. You CAN do this AD!

This still turns out to be a good deal for your wife and she will take full advantage of this. You put the marriage entirely on hold which frees her from any feelings of loyalty and guilt, then she is alone in this apartment; what do you imagine she is going to do? She will investigate and explore the full extent of her sexual needs and she still has a nice secure marriage to go back to. Of course, she could find a replacement for you during her sexual exploration....

If you finally get to the state of emotional detachment why would you allow yourself to fall in love again with this selfish woman?

Your whole approach to this dilemma is inconsistent. Either reconcile or divorce, not something in between.

Think of it this way Abbondad, There are 2 parts to being married, the emotional tie and the legal tie. By filing, you are dealing with the legal part, the financial part and protecting yourself and your kids from any future damage she could do in this state of mind she is in. As for the Emotional part of the marriage, well, it doesn't need the legal part to exist. It just does.

Protect yourself and your future and file, cover your ass legally while this plays out. Do it for your kids if for no other reason.

And if she does then that would sabotage the whole point of the separation, no? Specifically she'd freak and that would be it: end of separation, beginning of divorce.

no. you are missing a big point. that's not for you to control. if she's that weak, then she's not capable of R. that's the point. you can't "push her away" if she loves you and her kids and has the guts to do a damn thing about it. all you can do is stop enabling her and let her face the choices she has left...either show up walking a humble path of honesty, fidelity and authenticity for her kids and family or don't.

i get the NC thing and i think that is GREAT...surprising from you actually...and GREAT. it's hard though. it's easy to say, not to do. i'm hoping that you will enforce it and indeed begin to detach more and get a clearer view of where to go next.

the part where you still seem afraid to scare her away is a problem because she'll sense that and use it. i hope she takes this separation seriously, but it's so rarely the case until you are so detached you almost don't want it anymore, until they sense that your reluctance is stronger than their "spell."

in the year my XH and i had to be apart before D (state mandated), he still didn't get it. he was trying harder and being better to our DD than your WW in your situation, but he was still weak and self-serving, even in his guilt. so, like your WW, he promised, he cried, he wailed, he improved...some...i guess. but as soon as i filed my final papers, he sobered right up to the situation. that's when i saw the difference between him thinking i might leave him to understanding that i could and would.

so after 14 months of TT, warnings and S, he was still shocked when i told him on a friday that i'd be filing for final D on monday. SHOCKED that i would really go through with it. really? after 14 months of me holding his damn feet to the fire?

he turned his whole life around in a weekend, thinking, "oh shit, she did it...omg, what million things can i do in the next two days to change her mind?" by then there weren't any. by then i could see that there was nothing he could have done or would do that would make me want to R. the OC certainly affected my decision, but by then i'd also come to see that it was all just too broken, he was just too broken, that i might be okay with him as a father to my DD and as a "friend" but as a husband, he was pretty lousy.

you know what though? he tried, in right and serious ways, for months after our D was final, to see if he could make a dent in my resolve...to get another chance. i was impressed...but over it. it's easy to resent it when it comes too late.

i hope this shakes her awake, for your kids sake mostly. what i really think is important is for you to take some breaths, commit to keeping this distance from her during S...move further and further away from "affectionate" and watch what she does, viewing it all from a more detached place.

steel yourself, abbondad. so far she's been able to draw you back in with about 5 minutes of good behavior. i guarantee you she'll have you tempted in days or weeks.

abbondad, be certain and be clear...you need months...with her in counseling...big time. you need to see that even through NC she'll fight for your M. and she needs to prove that in some spectacular way, full of gestures small and great. she needs to tear her entire soul open, lay it bare, rebuild and nourish it for a long time ON HER OWN and leave all her excuses in a dumpster outside before she sets foot back into your kids' everyday lives. i don't think she's willing or capable of changing anything while you are around.

you need those weeks and months to work on codependent you also.

whatever you do from here, PLEASE don't let her move back in after a week or two weeks. she is going to destroy your children.

[This message edited by stretch13 at 7:24 AM, May 1st (Wednesday)]

Hi, Everyone,

Been reading everyone's responses thoughtfully...

I have been up much of the night next to a wife alternately angry with me (partly my fault, rewriting the marriage) and scared I will leave her--but never remorseful, never apologetic, never expressing resolve to end contact with the AP.

My mind is screaming at me through my clutching emotions: divorce this woman. Divorce her. She will not change. Let go. Let go. It will be OK. You will survive.

So my simple question to this forum:

Help me allay my fears. If your situation mirrors mine in any way--specifically, if you loved your spouse (or thought you loved her/him) but just knew it wasn't going to work, yet feared intensely divorcing--what was your "happy ending?"

How/When did you realize that your fears were ultimately unjustified once you took the plunge?

Often I think that I am not fearful of divorcing HER or of DIVORCING, but of my emotional response TO the divorce. You know what I mean?

I have been a college professor for almost twenty years. I have lectured for thousands of hours.

But before I started teaching (never expecting that this would be my career), I was paralyzed by fear of public speaking: what would I do if I did not know the answer to a question? What would I do if I lost my train of thought? And on and on. And you know what? I didn't know the answer to many questions. And I have lost my train of thought. But it was OK. I survived. And I love my job and walk into my lectures with enthusiasm, and my students love me.

(Maybe not the most appropriate analogy, but it comes to mind with regard to overcoming fear.)

Some of you had some taglines that say something like "The greatest relief I felt was when I finally filed," and "I realized that I had nothing to fear, and I am actually happier..."

This is what I need to truly internalize. This is what is holding me back and keeping me in terrible limbo.

Thank you.

AD,

You will survive this. The question is what kind of person do you want your kids to see you being? This should help you answer a lot of your own questions it did me.

I put up w/ being treated like shit for months and months, being blamed for the stupidest things, being told constantly that I was a bad wife, and mother. (this was during his A)(and I WAS extremely CO-Dep in our relationship so this was crushing to me).

After Dday, and his breaking NC (one of my FIRM things for us to R) I was posting on here asking for help and advice on how to get through this, and I think it was Moo, or Defiance who said will allow yourself to be a doormat the rest of your life? Is that the kind of person you want your kids to be raised by? It finally clicked, and I was tired of being hurt.

Thats when it became easy for me to stick to my demands, and consequences. I knew if I D'd we would be freaking broke, and it would be very hard financially, but I also knew that I could be happy again, and that was soo much more important.

Thats when I found my strength, that's when the power switched to me. When that happened, I knew no matter what I was going to be ok.

Like you with teaching, you got through it. You know now that the only thing you had to fear was the unknown. Isn't this really the same?

She is clearly going to manipulate you as long as you allow it. Don't. It's that simple.

Have you seen an attorney? I can't remember. You seem to have fear of the unknown holding you back. Go find out the answers to your questions and concerns. Knowledge is Power, and you my friend have all the power in your hands, you just have to use it.

Stop the manipulation, cakeeating, confusing crap that she keeps shoving down your and your childrens throats.

And if she does then that would sabotage the whole point of the separation, no? Specifically she'd freak and that would be it: end of separation, beginning of divorce.

Gently, the divorce process started when your W started her A. She emotionally DIVORCED herself from you. You have been playing catch up this entire time.

if you loved your spouse (or thought you loved her/him) but just knew it wasn't going to work, yet feared intensely divorcing--what was your "happy ending?"

I have one of those tag lines you referred too and I will respond. Before I get to the answer let me tell you what my problem was. I was SEVERELY CODEPENDANT, so much so that I left SI for a year because I didn't have the courage to do what everyone told me to do which is exactly what everyone is telling you to do. Brother I suffered for that year. It was pure hell before I finally cracked and came back here and started listening. The fear of my unknown future without my WW started to become less than the FEAR my life would ALWAYS be miserable with her. I was literally killing my soul a little each day and didn't have the courage to change my situation. I thougth my situation is similar to others on SI but slightly unique and in reality it wasn't. I took the long road to realizing that my M was over and my WW was unremorseful. She ahd even stopped the A but I spent all that time trying to "win" her back instead of focusing on me.

I read all the books and even lurked on the site reading on my own but it didn't sink in until I got some timely advice from the posters in the "I can relate Forum", Tired Girl gave me a timely 2X4 about what my WW was doing in a thread, and actually started reading the book Codependant No More. Like I believe you feel right now, in my head I knew my M was over but I still couldn't let go completely. It still took me 6 more months to file. Along the way I took baby steps and took back control of my life and that was Hell too. The last ah ha moment came when NJgal suggested I read the book "Love must be Tough". It clicked for me. After reading that I went back and reread "codependant No More" and it actually made sense to me this time. It made sense because I was reading it for my own healing this time and not as another tool or bullet to fire in the war I was waging to fix my wife and my M.

Back to your original question, my happy didn't end up being my WW deciding she wanted to come back. My path to happiness started when I decided that I and my kids were worth more than my WW and a broken M could ever give us. So I focused on myself and my kids and STOPPED worrying about my WW. I filed for D, technically got a S agreement since I am in a no fault state and you have to live apart for 1 year before a D can be finalized. It was a very tough decision but like my tag says the weight lifted from my shoulders because the burden of trying to fix my M was no longer mines to carry. I gave my STBXWW my conditions one last time and then went 180, NC, and detached from her ass while we are still living in the same house together. IN-house Seperation is it's own seperate monster but if I could do it with her in the house with me then Brother you can do it with you WW out of the house. Now I spend my time doing what I want with my kids and with the IC I actually worked through some issues I didn't even realize I had. So at some point in the future when I do meet someone else I won't fall back into my same codependant tendencies and in the meantime I am enjoying my life again for the first time in many years. My kids are the biggest beneficiary of this because all the energy I wasted on trying to fix my M gets focused on them now and that is what it's really about. So in summary my happy ending is getting out of a bad M and getting my life back. As a BS your WS's A is an instant "do-over card" for you. What you choose to do with it is completely up to you. Some R, some D, but the only way you find your happy ending is to actually take steps towards finding YOUR happy ending. It may not be what you think it is but is WILL be a happy ending for YOU, not your WW's happy ending, or your M happy ending, just YOUR happy ending. The rest will fall into place but you focus on the only thing you can control and that has and always will be YOU. Your happy ending is also your kids happy ending.

Maybe not what you wanted to hear but when you decide to get out of the hamster wheel and focus on you things work themselves out. It isn't easy but it's better than never ending torment that an unremoresful WS will continue to dump on you for as long as you let them.

If you truly are starting to detach evena little then build on each positive stpe. Yes you will make mistakes and get sucked back in at times but pick yourself up and start moving forward again. It seems hard at first but it gets easier and the clarity you get from detaching will amaze you.

Thank you, 7yrs,

Always great advice from you. (I don't mean to slight anyone else's posts; they are all wonderful and appreciated.)

It's amazing that yes, whenever I find myself thinking, "Yeah, but MY situation, MY spouse is different," it turns out that it just ain't the case. Maybe in the details, but the narratives parallel in the most important ways.

Kind of weird, too. It's almost like a "syndrome."

Detachment is the key for me. And it just can't happen while she is in the home. So thankfully she is moving out.

I am bound and determined to do it right this time--one step at a time, one text at a time, one call at a time... Bite my tongue, control my thumbs, divert my thoughts.

Abbondad, I forgot to add that I don't regret the path I took to "waking up" and getting a point that I could file for D. The only thing I do regret is not doing it sooner.

I still say you should file while seperated but if you don't file then you need to spend this time apart working very hard on yourself and please do NOT let her back in the house until she has met all of your conditions for R for a considerable amount of time. (if you do detach you probably won't want her to come back) If they leave on their own and come back it will be HELL trying to get her out again. My WW offered to leave after DDay and I didn't take her up on it. That is why I am sitting here doing in house S until she moves out in 2 months. If they leave willingly you can take steps, depending on the state, to get sole posession of the marital home. I didn't do that and still have 2 more months to serve before I get "released" from in-house S. Also any debt she racks up while you are still married is technically 1/2 yours. Talk to your L and give yourself options.

In your situation the longer you wait to take control the more time you give her to do it first and screw you over.

[This message edited by 7yrsflushed at 9:12 AM, May 1st (Wednesday)]

Oh, and in response to all the posts telling me to file, here is the reason I am not or at least reluctant at this time:

If we divorce, my wife and I agreed that we would do a Collaborative Divorce, not a litigated divorce. We do not want this to go through the courts and have a judge determine anything with regard to the children.

A collaborative divorce, if you are unfamiliar with it, is relatively inexpensive and very quick. My attorney is confident it can be done in five or six weeks, more or less. The point is we control it, not the attorneys and not the courts or judge. Ideally the collaborative process is not adversarial but is conducted with the children's best interests in mind.

Of course I anticipate your responses: my wife's actions do not indicate that she has our children's best interests in mind. She is implicitly if not explicitly adversarial, manipulative, etc. Yes and yes.

But I want to give the collaborative process a shot. We will still both be protected; each retains an attorney and thus we have legal advocates. A contract is drawn up at the first meeting that stipulates we will conduct this non-adversarially and will not take this to court.

The worst that can happen is that it falls apart, in which case we go the traditional litigated route, which again, we both want to avoid at all costs.

What do you think?

The problem is that when you detach from your wife and she is alone in her apartment; temporarily free from any marriage constraints, she will date other guys. There is a large risk that she will become emotionally involved with one of them, afterall she can't keep away from her current OM.

This will make it impossible for her to achieve a state of remorse and a suitable attitude for true reconciliation. You cannot trust her to be mature and work on bettering herself during her isolation, which is what you would want her to do.

Don't be surprised if she's 'gone' when you decide its time to reunite the family. I only hope you don't give a damn when that moment arrives.

I told myself I wasn't going to post anymore on this subject. But I see a world of hurt for you and most of all your children. I see a trail of men in your WW life while you pine away waiting for her to "sort things out."

Drama will be the order of each day....

Now I'm really done.

Hey Abbondad

You need some encouragement. You know my story, but it is indeed similar to yours. I didn't want to lose my wife and family. I was terrified of the future - terrified for my kids, terrified for myself, terrified about money, about the house and on and on and on.

I found SI two weeks after dday and had a very long thread. Like you I got all the advice - file, detach, 180, lines in the sand etc. For a while I just couldn't do it. My WW was different, my M was different, I wanted to do it my way - setting boundaries and never enforcing them.

She took the A underground. Continued to lie and treat me and the kids like shit.

Then I gritted my teeth and told her that was it - I was putting the house on the market and instructing a lawyer. I didn't invite any discussion about it - I just told her that was what was happening - that I couldn't tolerate three people in our M. I kicked her out of our bedroom.

I DID NOT WANT to do this. I really really didn't, but I felt I had no choice. She was shitting all over me and yet I was still scared of how she would react.

This hit her like a train and she backed down - 'finished it with OM' and 'came back to the M'. Well, except she didn't. She wallowed around in her own misery, pining for OM, getting angry with me and generally being an asshole to me and the kids yet again - rinse and repeat.

I had drawn a line in the sand and yet again I had backed down. I had let her back in on the strength of a few tears and words that turned out to be lies. I just didn't know it yet.

Then I caught her breaking NC again - not two weeks later. But this time I KNEW. This was done - finished. I wanted no more of it. My weakness in failing to stick to my boundaries that last time had done me in - I was just appalled at myself. But setting those wheels in motion had changed something in me. I didn't follow through that time, but I had at least fought so hard against my 'instinct' and wish to hold onto my M no matter the cost and it had toughened me up (even if I subsequently weakened). The last time she got busted I was ready.

So that was it - from dday to the decision to S was around four months. It felt like years. And then it was in-house S for another 3 months, which is a whole other story.

So - fear. I get it. I really do. But fear is just a feeling and sometimes you simply have to grit your teeth and push through that feeling.

The other thing I did was to use the time during all the hellish limbo and in-house S to detach and get on with my own shit. Sure I was still far too focussed on what she would do/ think/ feel etc, but that got less over time. I worked at it. Hard.

Happy ending - well, the day she left my house I felt better - MUCH better and right away. It was amazing. I had expected a much harder time with it, but it didn't really come. Sure I had lonely and sad moments, but I stood firm and kept my eyes on the future. That was happy ending number 1 - the toxic craziness was now at least at arms length.

Then I just started to move ahead without her and her importance continued to diminish in my life - I tentatively pushed forward our S deal and now that's all signed. Slowly, bit by bit, my life started to reform. I even met someone else to spend nice time with.

Now - legal S is done, I kept the house and I have been promoted at work. I have a lovely GF and life is good again.

I am no hero. I am not special. I made a whole load of mistakes, took wrong turns and said and did things I wish I hadn't. But I am making it through and that is because I reached a point where I knew that despite what I thought I wanted, I had to do something else. The sense of empowerment that comes from taking back control of yourself and your own life is invaluable.

You can do this. If I can, you can. You might feel like you are jumping without a net and maybe you are. But sometimes you do need to jump and just trust that the net will be there. What you project in your mind is always worse than reality.

Jump - the net will be there.

V

If we divorce, my wife and I agreed that we would do a Collaborative Divorce, not a litigated divorce. We do not want this to go through the courts and have a judge determine anything with regard to the children.

Two things. She lies about her A's but is honest about this ^^^?

And, just so you know this is how all D's work. You only need to appear before a judge and let him/her decide anything for you if you can't agree on a property settlement.

So the real concern here is you being too nice and giving up things that you will regret long after the fact. That's what I did. In my haste to get away didn't go after anything financially and now that I no longer love xWH and in fact think he's the dirt beneath my feet, I wish I had pushed his back to the wall. That would have been better than what he deserved.

I'm one of the ones who regrets not getting a D sooner, once I realized that he was an emotionally abusive fucktard. Instead I hung on and lost 10 years of my life. A complete waste. Don't waste any more of your life on this. That's what's at stake here, your own life. Why keep giving it to someone who treats you so poorly? If a student came to you with a story similar to yours, would you tell them to do what you are doing?

D/S is a cataclysmic change whether you want it or not. So if you think you can lessen that pain by dragging this out, you can't. It's more akin to ripping off a bandage.

Ah, I"m rambling and not being very sympathetic to you this morning. The reason is yesterday I spent the day amongst a large group of people, and I was the only single one. And at my age, it was embarrassing to me. And if I had left my xWH 10 years ago? I would still be at an age to easily rebuild my life. And that's my fault b/c I lollygagged, made excuses, thought I loved a man who was abusive to me, and was too nice. Don't be me. Choose to move forward. Time is still moving forward regardless.