SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Lucky is the victim of a wonky computer today. My apologies.

[This message edited by Lucky at 1:47 PM, June 28th (Friday)]

damnit..

[This message edited by Lucky at 1:35 PM, June 28th (Friday)]

ETA: I agree with jana..I DO see blameshifting from your BW...but I see no remorse and a "get over it" attitude from you.

Where? So, if the betrayal is outsourced that's a COMPLETELY different process than if it just fucks the other spouse AND family?

You don't see any of the story but you're willing to say he's unremorseful 4 years after over an incident that has nothing to do with his choices?

Let's dismiss alphabet soup and focus on behaviors.

Getting high from a behavior that is harmful to family, hidden, unilateral decision. Sound familiar? This has been a pattern from early in the marriage.

So he's pissed at this happening again and he's told he's a controlling jerk and unremorseful (based on the fact he didn't come in 4 years after to state how he realizes this is all his fault because of his horrible choices and the pain he's inflicted) and you determine he's unremorseful.

She posts that she is hurt that he wasn't thrilled she gave him NOT what he asked for several times as he's trying to even wrap his head around what his reality is leaving out some key details and presenting him in a less than favorable light. Ok, and he's blowing up her privacy and shaming her. Whatever.

I'm not saying your (idiot) tone is great. I don't really expect it to be. I'd be fucking livid and pathetic is a Hallmark Card to what I'd be tossing out there.

The OP read like a complete template for justifying and excusing inexcusable poor damaging choices.

I can only imagine what the response would be if it was a timeline for an affair given by a WS that was not how the BS requested it and after several requests. Oh my lord.

Guess betrayal only counts when there's a third party....or porn. Financial ruin is a completely different thing.

Gotcha.

I was going to stay away, but I didn't want to have it seem I was ignoring some questions. I want complete transparency in all parts of my life.

1. If I seemed like I was blame shifting, I'm sorry. I was trying to explain how I felt in the PAST and WHY I acted as I did and my feelings at THAT time. Not necessarily now. I am at fault here. Me. I own it. I am trying to solve it. Hubby has offered help at times, but just like a WS, I need to fix myself and my problems first. I don't want him being a KISA, if that makes sense? If I need help, I will ask for it. So far, I can pay more than the minimum charges and whittle it down. He 'fixed' things in the past, and that didn't work. I need to own this 100% and I need to do the work. I also wrote that first post while crying hysterically, so realize I was extremely emotional and not necessarily logical at that time.

2. Someone asked about the dept store. I used that card to pay for 85-90% of all the birthday and Christmas gifts for the entire family over the last two years. (Parents, siblings, kids, hubby, teachers, etc.) Even if you factor in $25-30 at most, it can accumulate up to a $1000 quickly. I also have used it in the various seasons to buy clothes for the kids. One preteen girl who blew through about three sizes in one year adds up quick. I just wanted to explain how even a dept store card can escalate quickly.

I should also clarify.. No expenses like perfume, makeup, etc. In fact, my three big purchases across ALL the CCs have been a wooden bench for our front patio, a three person swing for the backyard and an attachment for his tractor that first Father's Day. All in that first year or two. No coach bags, no designer clothes, no expensive jewelry... Despite the debt, I am thrifty and a bargain shopper. For years, I managed to feed our family of four on $100 a week. Including toiletries and cleaning supplies. I now do it on $150/wk, but at times, (grocery prices have skyrocketed), I had been chipping in anywhere from 25-60 a week. Due to the CC interest rates, I haven't done that in over a year. I only add in cash if I have it.

3. How did it get to be 12K? Interest. In one card, I'm paying more than the minimum because the minimum payment would barely cover the interest alone! Have that happen for 36 months and you can imagine how it multiplies! I also haven't used this card in over two years. I'm simply paying it off, a month at a time.

4. In hindsight, I think me keeping the info was an attempt to maintain some control. I'm not proud of it, but looking back, that's what it was, I'm pretty sure. Like it or not, once I became a SAHM, I had little to no income and was completely dependent on hubby for everything. I figure "this" was an overcompensation for my lack of power/control/whatever in the marriage prior. Once again, I'm just trying to analyze WHY I acted the way I did. It doesn't make it right and I'm not trying to excuse it.

5. I have just about finished the worksheet. As in 99% done. It still may not be what he is asking for, but with the access to all accounts and my information, he has all the info.

6. No, not all of our accounts are joint. I opened my own account when I filed for divorce. Hubby in turn opened his own account and deposits his check there. We do have other accounts that remain joint and we opened an joint account for our savings last summer. Just wanted to answer someone's question. And yes, I'm fine with this arrangement.

7. I'm very familiar with Dave Ramsey. We already are, with the exception of my running off the rails, are extremely frugal. I use coupons, buy used cars, pack lunches, etc. No starbucks or repeated eating out here.

8. I also will go back to work full time in two years. At which point, I plan to pay off whatever is remaining of my debt. I have written a cookbook on Amazon to try and make some add'l money. I have sold things on EBay. I have worked a second job sporadically over the years, but my employer just doesn't need the help any longer. I KNOW 12K is a huge big deal. I'm not making light of it at all. However, as much as I lay awake trying to think of things I can do additionally to pay it off? I have to lay it in the lap of the Lord, without getting too religious. I have to stay home until our child is a little older, so until that point, I'm going to do as much as I can to get the amount down as much as possible.

9. Most importantly, I love my husband. Yes, he has faults. I have faults. No one is perfect. The fact remains that I love my husband and I pledged to see this through, for better or worse. I saw a great man hiding inside that stranger who took over in 09 and decided that I could not forgive myself if I didn't try to reconcile. We both have FOO issues and it's been a learning curve.

10.. I actually am quite calm now. I had a big anti last week. One that knocked me for a loop even last year. But I have prayed over the years and very recently realized that I can't control my life. I can only take what is given me and act accordingly. I cannot control him. If he has another A? That is on him. He will be the one to have to live with himself. No matter what I do, if he's going to go down that road, he will. I've seen others remark on this self realization over the years and I finally got there. I have let go of the majority of the anger, hurt, and resentment. I'm still not there totally and yes. There are days where I can't believe that my life story now includes an A. And yes, it still hurts. I expect that it will always hurt to some degree? But it's a manageable hurt, not the all encompassing grief that consumed me the first two years or so.

I hope that clears up some of the questions. I do hope that this is helpful to others so that they don't make the choices I did!!

Oh, and the Sears card was a MasterCard and the one where they are charging me extremely high rates of interest. So, yes, I did use that card for gas and groceries. Just wanted to clarify. Bowing out now.

[This message edited by betrayedandnumb at 2:58 PM, June 28th (Friday)]

This is an anonymous site. We talk about affair details, sexual positions, fetishes, our deepest pain and vulnerability here. As well as our kids, dogs, and internal family issues. Why not money?

I meant that they are acting like children with the posting and for him to shame her about her failures, it was her post not his and now all the back and forth about her and what she did. I understand this is a public site but I still don't think it is healthy to have two spouse's going at it about their personal finances and for him to shame her like a child here on this site. JMO.

She is now taking ownership of her faults and he is still going on and on about it. They need to work it out.

pathetic is a Hallmark Card to what I'd be tossing out there.

Wow, I swear when the shoes fits. Is there not certin people who preach about how wrong it is to call people out of there name for poor choices they have made? And a BS should not be degrading when they were cheated on? So how is this statement any different?

And from what I said, yes, his additude sounds controlling about a speadsheet. And do I think that he needs to put the amounts that she has out for all to see because I think if she wanted us to know she would have said so. No matter the amount is wasn't this thread not about the spreadsheet and her hurt feelings?

Call it what you want but when there is a 3rd party it is 1000x worse. JMO.

And no I don't think it is anyones business to know the amounts and make her feel even worse.

[This message edited by Faithful w/Love at 3:03 PM, June 28th (Friday)]

I can only imagine what the response would be if it was a timeline for an affair given by a WS that was not how the BS requested it and after several requests. Oh my lord.

I think the better analogy is that the BS asked the WS to verbally inform BS any time the AP attempts to contact by email. And WS dragged their feet about doing so.

And then finally the WS sets up the email to automatically forward all emails from the AP. Now, how does the BS react to getting more transparency than they asked for?

He says he wants the credit card information. I would too. But rather than a spreadsheet, which provides a 1-time snapshot, she gave him the passwords. This gives him ALL the information he wants, ANY time he wants it.

Is he angry about not getting the information he says he wants for lo these many months? Or angry about her not providing the information the way he asked for it?

Wow, I swear when the shoes fits. Is there not certin people who preach about how wrong it is to call people out of there name for poor choices they have made? And a BS should not be degrading when they were cheated on? So how is this statement any different?

He didn't call her pathetic. He called her response pathetic.

I wouldn't have supported him labeling her pathetic at all.

When does a personal crises become a marital crises?

When does "my" problem become "our" problem?

I'm not being snarky.

I look to my partner for emotional support.

I have just about finished the worksheet. As in 99% done. It still may not be what he is asking for, but with the access to all accounts and my information, he has all the info.

Congratulations on your transparency.

It still hurt her because she tried it her way and was really proud of herself. Being called Patheic or that was patheic is a downgrade as to not doing it good enough, to make her feel unworthy of a excel spreadsheet? See what I am coming from?

I am only saying this because I know how it feels to be called that if I didn't clean the top of the fridge or what else I missed when cleaning (that was an example).

I just wanted to chime in as well that this was totally financial infidelity. I completely understand where your H is coming from, and whether he was a BH or WH has no bearing on this issue. You have had a terrible relationship with money from before you met him, my H has had a terrible relationship with money since before I met him as well. Fortuantely, my H is aware of this and has given me the reigns in the financial department and would never spend $5 without checking with me and verifying our situation.

You are justifying your spending and your actions just like a WS tries to justify their cheating. You say "I didn't buy silly thing, just groceries and gas", but then later you TT us and tell us that you bought a tractor attachment for Father's Day, a wood bench for the front porch, and a swing for the backyard. Honey, listen, those things were NOT necessary! You are trying to make it sound like you were just trying to help out the household in some weird way (by weird I mean, you weren't thinking about what happens when the bill comes in), but those things didn't help the household out at all! Your porch would still be a porch even if there were no bench on it, your friends could find somewhere else to sit in the backyard if there was no swing in it, and your H would have loved getting a homemade card from the kids if you didn't get him a tractor attachment. You have got to stop justifying your losey goosey behavior with money.

I was a SAHM for a very long time as well, and when I was doing that then I made it my job to save every penny I could. Coupons were just the beginning, growing a garden to save our food bill even more helped some. I babysat other kids to make an income (something you can totally do while waiting for 2 more years for your little one to be in school or whatever you are waiting for), there are LOTS of work at home jobs that are completely legit that you can do while the little one is around. Point is, there are lots of ways around this debt, and just sitting here trying to make excuses is not helping. You have GOT to pay a LOT more than the minimum payment in order to dig out of these debts in a reasonable time. You have accumulated a TON of debt in a very short period of time, and you need to stand up and face that debt head on and get rid of it. Babysit some kids, put every penny on those debts, and never open another card or spend a dime without clearing it with H first. You have demonstrated time after time that you can't relate to money in a healthy way, so it's time to turn over the control of that money to someone who can manage it properly.

You'll never be able to fix this if you don't face it for what it is, it's an inappropriate coping mechanism, much like an affair is an inappropriate coping mechanism for many. You made this mess, now it's time to fix it, then make boundaries so it doesn't ever happen again. You can cause enough damage to end a marriage by doing the things you've already done, what are you going to do to make sure that doesn't happen again, what are your boundaries going to be and plan of action to keep yourself out of this boat in the future?

(Sorry for the 2x4, but it is something that might be needed)

I should also clarify.. No expenses like perfume, makeup, etc. In fact, my three big purchases across ALL the CCs have been a wooden bench for our front patio, a three person swing for the backyard and an attachment for his tractor that first Father's Day

It's not what you bought but the high you spoke about. The "in the moment" thinking with no thought of discussion or how it will impact the budget and how it will get paid.

I understand that. You are owning it. You guys seem to be working together which is great.

Just not exactly right he's being hit like a piñata while you were being a bit bubble wrapped.

You seem to understand that too. That's awesome. Both of you have each other's six and that's what counts.

This is just about the money end of this. I read that 'you own this'. BUT I really don't think you get it. You claim to be frugal...frugal people do not run up 12-15k in credit cards, do you get that? Frugal people don't spend more than what they can pay off in a short amount of time. I would understand if there was an unexpected job loss, medical emergency. You knew what the interest rates were, you are not a victim of the credit card companies. My kids grow too (most do), we are a single income family (by choice) and I have never run up debt to that extreme.

My H would notice if I was shopping shopping shopping but yet there wasn't big chunks of money missing out of our household checking acct. I understand he waited on your spreadsheet but when he didn't get one he should have sat you down years ago to get his needed info. Might have saved you thousands if this was nipped earlier.

On the other hand, you are an adult if you want to run up debt go right on ahead but be prepared to be accountable to the person you live with.

These are just my personal opinions so take them for what you will.

B&N- it sounds like you might’ve been self-medicating with spending. You mention a “high” that came from “contributing” financially to the household, and that may have been true at one point. You do state that you bought necessities like gas and groceries but then you go on to state that you bought Christmas gifts, a swing for the porch, and various other non-necessities throughout time. It seems as if you remained tight-lipped because 1) you felt entitled to spend money the way you wanted due to his betrayal, 2) you did not feel you should have to be financially transparent to someone who betrayed you, and 3) you were engaged in “retail therapy” and enjoying the high you got from purchasing things.

It is good that you feel you finally get it… this is a major problem and is totally financial infidelity. I commend you for coming clean with the totals, giving your H transparency with your accounts, and making positive steps toward correcting this problem. I, however, strongly feel that just like a wayward spouse needs to do the hard work to figure out the WHY, so should you do some hard work to determine your motivations for this type of spending, and where the high comes from/why you seek it. Your H mentions that he went to IC and did other things to help fix himself after his A, but that you only posted on here to help you heal. What did you do to assist you in your healing? What has your H done to assist you in your healing?

B&N's H- I get that you felt this was financial infidelity, and I totally agree with you. Why was the information your wife finally gave you not good enough? Why did you NEED it in Excel format when you had the necessary information for a more complete and accurate financial picture through use of the account information she provided? Is this a control issue for you?

I might be totally wrong here, but you seem to be dismissive of your wife’s emotions about your A. Yeah, you mention all the effort and hard work you put in, but that does not change your wife’s perceptions/perspective/emotions, nor does it mitigate the effect your A had on her.

It seems like you guys should solve the problem of the debt first. Pay it all off and close out the accounts. Yes, word is that you’re not supposed to do that, but with an obvious spending problem (as demonstrated by $$ problems before marriage/early on and a continuation of that pattern now) it’s probably the best way. Seek the advice of a credit counselor/financial planner if it is needed. Also, I’d suggest marriage counseling to deal with the unhealthy dynamic in your marriage.

(((((B&N and H))))

When does a personal crises become a marital crises?

When does "my" problem become "our" problem?

When you say "for richer or poorer"

I concur with everyone else that this is financial infidelity, and having been through both forms of infidelity the financial hit me just as hard as the sexual. It all boiled down to trust issues and lies. This thread is triggering me. B&N, I say this as graciously as possible in that you continue to justify. This thread started off talking about one credit card... mid way through we had 4 dept store cards, and a Sears card. All while you were still insisting you bought nothing frivolous but gas and groceries. Then it came out that there were gifts for teachers, husband, kids, etc. It may not be in the form of Coach bags or Chanel perfume, but I am sure there was frivolity to it. A porch swing was not necessary, but a purchase, I am sure, that you justified, anyway.

Also, I do not believe $12k worth of expenditure is mostly interest. I do believe it may be a good chunk, as store cards always have higher interest, but I think that you are downplaying your own part.

Personally I think he has every right to assume control over the finances. Just as BS assumes control over emails, phones, etc.

Also, B&N, I concur with other who have said you comfort yourself with shopping. In extreme times people will turn to different things, alcohol, sex, drugs. Your therapy is shopping.

I think you all should see a counselor or a pastor about the situation. Someone who you can trust.

You are justifying your spending and your actions just like a WS tries to justify their cheating.

Wow, betrayedandnumb, you, essentially have had a revenge A in the form of financial infidelity. The secrecy, the justifications (which you are still making), the trickle truth....it's all wayward behavior.

Doesitgetbetter nailed it on the head when she stated that this is an inappropriate coping behavior. It is good that you are taking responsibility for your debt yourself, but I do hope your first step was to go NC with your CCs. And remember that this mess you made is impacting your H, just as his A has impacted you.

So here is an update:

This morning I sat down and logged into all the websites for my wife CC’s. I only got 3 out of 4 pieces credit card info from her so the trickle true was still continuing. For the fourth one, she says “Oh, I just get an email statement every month and I can’t log onto the web site. Sorry, the red flag just went off in my head. I asked for the email so I could have the balance of that CC as well.

I tried logging onto the last CC’s website and I had problems. I tried registering as a new user. Still no luck. So I asked my wife to call them and find out what the problem is. She looks at me and says “Now???” “Ummm, YES!!!” Well, she went upstairs and called. Not sure why she did this but as long as she was calling, I did not care.

So other than the 4th credit card that she did not give me any of the information on, I had my one line excel report done in 5 minutes. After she called, I had all the information. So why did this take 3 months? Well, it took that long because she was lying to me and herself, she was in denial about it and did not want to see the total amount that she owed. Basically, if she had it in one place then she would have to actually address it and it would make it real.

So I did some looking around on one of the major CC that she has a large balance on. She used that CC this month, the prior month and the month before that. I stopped looking at that point. I asked her about it and she said that she has not used the card in months. Hello?! You used it this month!!!

Her balance for all the CC’s is almost $13K. She told me and all of you that it was $12K. Another reason that I’m guessing that she did not want to give me the information was that she wanted to get the balance lower. She made two payments this week but before that her balance was over $13K.

I started looking at the amount of interest she is paying on these CC’s…24.99%, 23.24%, 13.99% and 21.99%. Last month, she paid $212.13 in interest to these companies. If that continues, that will be $2500 in interest payments in one year. Good God, do you know what our family could do with that money? It would have paid for out vacation this summer, paid for the summer pool that we used to go to and paid for the deck that I’m working on right now. Hiding this kind of information from me is BULLSHIT! It is 100% financial infidelity! It exhibits all the characteristics of people having an affair.

With that being said, now I have the information and I can start processing a plan to make it for away. Am I mad, no! Disappointed, yes! Am I going to make a federal case over it, no! Am I going to grill her over it, over and over again like I was after my affair, no! This is now just a mathematical equation that I have to solve and somehow earn an extra $13K onto of the current bills. Not sure how I’m going to do that right now, but I have some plans.

The bottom line is that she finally came clean and I’m not going to be a tool bag over her mistake. I actually would like to help her out of this mess. I have already forgiven her about it (actually did that about a year ago but it has really taken her that long to really get me the information, not 3 months) and now we can move on, work on a plan and not have this hanging over our heads.

Things that I know about my wife, she cannot handle this type of pressure. She does not like calling the CC companies and asking for lower rates. She procrastinates on just about everything.

Other things that I know about my wife is that she is strong (after all the fucking shit I put her through). She loves our kids more than life herself. She is a good person and would not hurt a fly (that is why I have to kill all the bugs in the house). And she loves me for some unknown reason that I will never understand.

So here is what I am good at…project planning and making my goals. That is what I do for a living, literally. I am responsible to the entire network infrastructure for a company that make about one billion dollars a year. My life is all about pressure so what is a little more pressure and debt. Within one year, I will have this $13K gone. I love my wife too much to let something as $13K get in the way. Our wallets and budget will be much tighter than it was before but the bottom line is that my wife loves me and I love her. To be continued….

IFL...

Your last post seemed a little off to me. To me, it came off as you glorifying in B&N's mistakes. Yes, I get that her spending and keeping these things from you is wrong. Believe me, I get that because I have gone through the same thing, and confessing to my husband was one of the hardest things ever. But your post almost sounds as though you're happy to be the "good guy" in this situation. As in, see, my wife can mess up too. One line, especially, jumped out at me.

Am I going to grill her over it, over and over again like I was after my affair, no!

Like, "See, I'm so much better than her! I'm not going to put her through what she did to me! Yay me!" This isn't the approach to take at all. You say you've forgiven her already for it, yet you come on here and point out to all of us how awful she was and how you're swooping in to save the day. In fact, you almost are making her out to be stupid. Telling us the interest rates, telling us all about your rescuing her. Granted, it could just be the way I'm reading it. I don't know what your actual intent was. But if you're feeling superior right now, that really needs to stop. This is something that you need to work on TOGETHER. You "saving" her isn't going to help anything. Some people, including me and many others here from the sounds of it, take comfort in spending, for whatever reason. It's not a good thing and it's something that does need to be fixed. You doing this without her will not fix it. Can you two together work on a budget? Together figure out what will need to be given up so that this can be paid off? And doing it all without you making comments about the vacations you could have had with that money? Because believe me, that won't help anything.

Like I said, I don't know if that's the way you meant to sound or not. And I'm sorry if I misunderstood. Honestly, though, can you say that you aren't feeling just a trifle superior right now? Just a little bit glad that she's on the hot seat instead of you?