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To me, it shows his lack of wanting to make you safe.

yep this...

I don't get the "if it wasn't a PA it would be degrading thing?"

there is no dignity lost in making your spouse feel safe. We do it all the time, whether infidelity is part of our life or not. It's a loving, healthy thing to do.

You're not be accusatory, you've been lied to and need some back up to move forward. Nothing else.

Why I think about a 'communication' issue...

1) He says 'no PA', but you don't believe him. Maybe that's because he's sending non-verbal signals saying 'lie'. Maybe you're not picking up that he's sending 'total truth' signals. (And maybe something else entirely....) A decent MC might be able to help you understand each other better.

2) He says if he passes a poly, he's done trying to prove to you he's truthful. Maybe that's defensive and a red flag. Maybe he's saying he's done because there's nothing else that either of you can think of to get you through this impasse. If that's the case, maybe an objective 3rd party can help you both see another way out.

3) Maybe the real issue for you is that he's minimizing the importance of an EA. With the 2 of you going round and round on the PA question, you won't catch this aspect unless someone mentions it, which I just did. A decent MC could possibly observe other issues between you and your H. What's more, a decent MC can help you resolve them.

4) You had one bad experience with an MC. You're healing from infidelity and R'ing, for crying out loud - a bad MC should roll off you like water rolling off a duck's back....

Seriously, you're way stronger than a bad MC. I know a bad MC can add tremendously to your pain, but the benefits of a decent or better MC are enough to make looking again a good idea.

Overall, JMO - I think a communication problem may be involved in your impasse, but you know a lot better than I do.

ETA: ...and I may be underestimating the traumatic nature of a really bad counselor. Still, I think it's worth making a few calls and interviewing some MCs.

[This message edited by sisoon at 1:38 PM, August 12th (Monday)]

He degraded himself by lying to you. Does he get that? Does he understand how he broke your trust and now it's HIS job to show himself trustWORTHY?

He didn't just minimize the EA, he lied about it. I'm guessing that it wasn't "just" a lie of omission but an actual false assertion right to your face?

Our MC said "Trust is earned not given." IMHO that is the right view, not your IC's view that you can just decide to trust him.

To clarify,

My IC says to take one day at a time. I should ask each day,

Today, is my WH doing what he should be doing to earn my trust? Is he NC, transparent, says what he means,etc...

If the answer is yes, I choose to trust him today.

And I get that. I do.

Her opinion is that:

The problem is that I do not trust what he says about what happened then. He really can't do anything to 'prove' the past. He can only work on today, and the next day and the next day. So, based on the question above, I choose each day to trust him each day I see trustworthy behavior. Then he starts to earn it back. Another words the choosing is the beginning of the process, the earning comes after repeated effort on his part.

Don't know if I am saying that right.

He didn't just minimize the EA, he lied about it. I'm guessing that it wasn't "just" a lie of omission but an actual false assertion right to your face?

And here is the thing, and the problem with EA's in general, is that he doesn't think what he did was an EA.

What he says happened does not fit into the standard definitions you find in most books or articles. He doesn't meet all the requirements according to those things and I have no proof either way. And most of that has to do with feelings and you can't ask questions about feelings or intent on a poly graph.

Yes, he could be lying, it could have been physical or it could have been a full blown EA with feelings and I love you's and the whole nine yards. (Obviously this is what I struggle with.)

But it could have been what he said as well and I will just never know for sure.

^^This is why I said the polygraph would show if he slept with her, but it doesn't show intent or feelings etc...

My IC just asks me, if I am willing to walk away from a M based on a possibility. I don't know.

About the dignity thing, even WS who have taken them have said they felt the same way. So I don't think he is off there. I don't know their circumstances but if you had already admitted or were caught in a PA, I think you could maybe rectify the dignity thing in your head. What do I know? My WS doesn't admit to anything and I couldn't find anything to bust him with so I do understand the dignity thing.

So today he booked the polygraph. He is angry. I think he is looking at it as his "get out of jail free card."

He can then say he tried everything and be done. Why he isn't just done now, who the fuck knows.

My head and my heart hurt.

So today he booked the polygraph. He is angry.

Anger is a red flag for me. How DARE you try to get evidence that he isn't STILL lying?

Sounds like a tactic to get you to say, "Oh never mind." Don't fall for it.

(Brokensmile322). Thinking of you. I'm so sorry you are hurting.

((brokensmile)) you are brave!

At the time my WH made the call to set up the polygraph, we were also arguing about an incident (nothing A related) where WH tried to 'slip in' something he knew I would not like.

^^The argument about this thing is what sparked the call.

You see, my WH tries to manage me. IOW, if he knows I will be upset about XYZ, he will ignore it, slip it in (like he did here), tell a partial truth etc... All of this is done to manage my reaction. I see this clearly. He is just coming around to 'seeing' that this is what he does. Our awareness of this is Post A. This is actually how he had handled the OW during the A and why, now, it is a huge trigger.

It is a deep engrained FOO issue for him as well. This is how he deals with his mother. We have somewhat the same personality so this is how he learned to deal with her,

I don't want to be like her and I am working on it.

To me, this is a marriage issue.

Anyway, he came back and apologized for how he reacted to my anger over him 'slipping in' this thing. We talked it through; it was cathartic.

^^This thing is something I think we could work through effectively in MC.

The Poly was never mentioned during his apologizing. He told me it is scheduled for next Friday.

A few days later, when something A came up, he said without any anger, well next Friday will answer that for you.

So maybe it will actually happen. He still does say "I can't believe I have to do this to prove to you that I did nothing PA with her. I will do it and then I can't do anything more than what I am already doing." This is now said, without any anger, but just more matter of fact.

I am nervous. I feel anxious. I feel guilty. I feel crazy.

[This message edited by brokensmile322 at 9:25 AM, August 15th (Thursday)]

((brokensmile)) continue marching forward!! This is the right thing to do. Please don't allow him to make you feel guilty for asking for this...

I see this clearly. He is just coming around to 'seeing' that this is what he does.

I take it that he wants to change that behavior, so IMO that's a giant win for both of you and for your M.

I am nervous. I feel anxious. I feel guilty. I feel crazy.

Hmmm...I think I understand nervous and anxious. I also could get 'excited', because the recent insight can lead to really good stuff fro you.

Guilty? For what? You kept pushing for a positive change, and it's happening. If you had stopped pushing, I could see 'guilty' for giving up, but not for this....

Crazy? well, you wouldn't want to be dull and normal, would you?

[This message edited by sisoon at 2:31 PM, August 15th (Thursday)]

From now on and forever more, no matter what my gut tells me I will follow it until the end of the earth! I didn't listen to it one time and I wind up with a 4 year mess!!!!

Broken.....if your gut is telling you something listen to it. We are all in hypersensitive mode and our body's tell us lots of stuff that we would have not cared about before.

I vote for listening to your gut. It knows you, your spouse and your situation like no one else.

T

A few days later, when something A came up, he said without any anger, well next Friday will answer that for you.

Yes. I hope it does. It could be such a positive thing for you going forward that he would do this for you. I hope he starts to see it that way too, and I hope that this is the start of some real changes in him. Don't feel guilty - this could be the start of some forward motion in R.