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So sorry that you are here.

She is too deep into the fog to understand what you are asking, what she has done and what it might take to move forward. Set your boundaries. Your list is completely reasonable.

Also an appropriate addition might be a no contact letter- see the healing library- that you write together and she sends- to OM.

You aren't doing anything to the kids or the M, even if you divorce her. She already did this damage when she had an A.

And don't let her blame it on the sex. She had so many other choices. All the way up to divorcing you.

I think she needs to start individual counseling, as do you. I don't think that marital counseling would be useful with her in her current state.

These are my opinions, take what is helpful to your case. But do take care of yourself- run, bike or otherwise exercise, sleep, eat, and stop taking care of her. Be gentle with yourself and firm with her.

Hi Murph

I am so sorry honey. This is awful for you.

But...there is something worse. Staying with a WW who is still screwing around or pining after her "lost love" .

I know there are so many thoughts in your head at present about how to sort out this mess. You sound like someone who is a problem solver. I am too. You spend every waking moment trying to work out what to do to fix the problem.

But honey you can't fix her. You can't fix this. She has to fix her. She has to fix this. She has to be desperate to save the M. Until she is there is nothing you can do.

So 180 now. Better still tell her to leave. Tell her you don't want a W who wants someone else. See a lawyer. Trust me, unless you are willing to lose your M you cannot save it.

In my case on dday I told my FWH to leave. In my case we argued for hours. I demanded he leave. He refused to go. He also refused to phone his latest whore and tell her he was done with her.

I said "Your whores may be willing to share you with me but I will never knowingly share my H with another woman. Choose me or F... off." He called her.

After 3.5 years I am still struggling (LTAs are like that!) but he is trying in his own inept way. I KNOW he has had NC but I am leaving my options open.

Until you put yourself first, you will always struggle. Forget her "needs" (the sex stuff you alluded to is irrelevant - I don't care what the problem is/was nothing excuses an affair. If you were a serial rapist, paedophile or closet bi-sexual or whatever!!!!). The affair is all on her. Never forget that. Nothing excuses an affair. If you were sexually, emotionally or physically abusive she had the choice to leave.

SHE COULD HAVE LEFT YOU!!

Instead she chose the cowards way out.

Get mad honey. You have a right to be.

BIG HUGS

Laura

Curious...what is the problem with the sex life?? I might have misread that, but it sounds like her excuse is that her sexual needs aren't being met?

Curious...what is the problem with the sex life?? I might have misread that, but it sounds like her excuse is that her sexual needs aren't being met?

That's exactly it.

I guess I need to read about this 180 and go from there.

EDIT: I looked for the 180 and I can't find it.

[This message edited by maddmurph at 7:22 AM, October 11th (Friday)]

Hi again MM

It is in the "Healing Library" (see box top left) under BS FAQ.

This is the direct link

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/faq_bs.asp#FAQ11

Got it thanks so much. I was looking in the wrong place. The upside is I think I doing most of it. I need to watch my tone though, I go between ROID RAGE PISSED to talk to her like she is our 3 year old.

Here's the thing about "unmet sexual needs," murph: WSs often completely manufacture an inadequate sex life for the sole purpose of being able to say, "You weren't meeting my needs."

In other words, sometimes, they set us up.

It sounds as though you might have been set up in this fashion---trapped in a Catch-22.

It's not about your sex life.

Here's the thing about "unmet sexual needs," murph: WSs often completely manufacture an inadequate sex life for the sole purpose of being able to say, "You weren't meeting my needs."

^^^So true^^^

Took me a long time to grasp this one. To understand it. I took SO much blame upon myself for this. It still saddens me to this day how much blame I took.

It's not about your sex life.

Word. Even if there were genuine problems in that area, (and just her saying so doesn't make it a fact) then there were still a million things that could have been done to address that situation that didn't include her having an extra marital affair. That is a totally separate issue, and don't let her tell you otherwise. Having an affair, lying and betraying you is just how she chose to deal with it behind your back - if in fact the problem does really exist.

Murph, re-read my post it's pertinent to her actions below.

She came back up agreed to counseling. Said I can't force her to love me. She said I'm making choose between married and miserable or divorced and miserable. I said no I just want to actually try and not throw it away.

She stormed back down saying she hares herself. Hitting the wall and throwing the rice pack she had. I went down (of course) and she was bawling on the couch. I got her some water and a tissue. She just sobbed. Then it sounded like she was sleeping so I came back up.

This is what's happening. If you stand your ground she is going to throw a fit and cry and everything else. She will agree to some of what you want and act like she is giving you a prize. She will do this in hopes you will drop the rest.

As an example, she said she was leaving. She did this in hopes you would run to her and tell her no. When you didn't she gave a little to what you wanted.

Next time she says she wants to leave tell her you will help her pack. This is probably a scare tactic.

You have all the power. All you have to do is not give in to her. Others have said it her but there are worse things than being divorced. Being the second man in a marriage is worse. You being the logistical arm and provider so some other man can enjoy your wife is worse.

To illustrate the level of manipulation a WW will go through, after D-day my wife kept saying she was going to kill herself every time I demanded something she didn't want to give up. Of course being a Knight in Shining Armor I ran to the rescue. She would get what she wanted. The last time she did it I brought her to the Emergency room and called the cops. On the way over there she said "If you do this I'll divorce you". I said "that I can live with, knowing I didn't get you the help you needed,I can't live with". I also told her this would happen every time I heard it come out of her mouth.

Guess how many times she has done that since?

Sorry if this was harsh but it's the reality of what you're dealing with.

Completely reasonable and fair demands from you. Very irrational and childish response from her. She is not taking ownership of her part in this. I am very sorry she has put you in this position.

I need to watch my tone though, I go between ROID RAGE PISSED to talk to her like she is our 3 year old.

Its understandable since I'm sure your emotions are all over the place. Keep in mind that the more emotion you show her, the more ammo she has to manipulate you with.

It's tough, you love her and in your mind you are her husband. You want to be there for her. The problem is the dynamic of the M has completely changed with the revelation of her A. Now you are seeing where she is at emotionally. She is behaving like an entitled spoiled child. Treat her accordingly. Don't give in and stand your ground. Stand up for you and your kids. It will help you get back that confidence and sense of "you". Thats where the 180 comes in.

Also, wayward spouses in the midst of their A are an emotional blackhole. No amount of soothing or taking care of them will be enough. You have to, HAVE TO, let her figure that out on her own. Getting into IC will help you learn how to navigate her emotional minefield.

It isn't about the sex I'll assure you. Mine threw that one at me also in her blameshifting along with ten other things (I can message you what she said if you're interested). Maybe she has convinced herself that she's bored sexually hence the blameshift for that one. It's probably more about what she perceives as the intimacy of sex. And that's an issue she needs to discover in herself as to why she's behaving like this.

Stop trying to "nice" her back to you. Following her with tissues is just that...you're trying to nice her back and show her how much you care about her in the return that she will wake up. You gave her your boundaries now stick with them. Even as hard as it is to do. Even present her with the business card of your attorney. This will hit home to her like you will not believe.

I tried many of the same things you are doing and like the experienced people here are saying, it doesn't work. Now I'm passing on that experience I had and they were right. She still knows you wont follow through on your threats. She knows she can still blameshift because inside she still isn't respecting you. She isn't being transparent with her cell and what not because she is still in contact with him or hopes to be in the future. Mine password locked everything as well at discovery. The A was much worse than I imagined when I found out much more of the truth. they will hide a ton of things and only believe 50% of what you see as the truth. There is more. You need to show her what her life will be without you. She can't have her cake and eat it too. She's very immature like a child and how would you handle a child? Sometimes it takes a while for this stuff to sink into us BS's because we just cannot believe our spouse become these people in front of our eyes. But they do.

Next time she says she wants to leave tell her you will help her pack. This is probably a scare tactic.

Her stuff is still in bags from when I packed it up. I will help her carry it out to the car. I did not help her bring it back in.

The holiday weekend is messing up my finding a lawyer. I have a number from a friend but I think they are closed. So nothing til Tuesday.

I also have a number for a counselor that I will be calling this morning.

Ugh no available appointments til the Thursday after next.

Lawyer called me back.

I told her about the counselor, and she was like well is that for you or for us because you haven't given me time to look. I said it's for me, you can do the one for both of us.

and she was like well is that for you or for us because you haven't given me time to look.

Why would it matter? Sounds like she doesn't like not having control.

FWIW, entering into MC with a nonremorseful WW can be damaging emotionally. If she blames any of this on you and the counselor isn't experienced enough you might feel ganged up on at a time where you are very vulnerable. It may be worth each of you doing individual IC until you feel more emotionally strong, and then pursuing MC then. Just a thought.

If she blames any of this on you and the counselor isn't experienced enough you might feel ganged up on at a time where you are very vulnerable.

I think I am strong enough to handle it and savvy enough to know when the counselor isn't good. I could be wrong though. I'm also pretty damaged right now so what's a little more?

In other news, it's liberating to finally be mad at her and not take it out on others. Especially the kids, I had one of my best days with them yesterday.

****In regards to her needs not being met sexually***

Did she even tell you what her sexual needs were and weren't..

Don't fall for this kind of blame shifting and manipulation..

We can bend ourselves into pretzels trying to be the sex God/Goddess of the WS's dreams in attempt to nice them back into the M but their needs will end up being ever changing...

Trying to nice the WS back into the M doesn't work..All it does is make us exhausted and crazy..We are left wondering if we are ever good enough for them..Most importantly we feel manipulated by them and wonder when the next shoe is gonna fall...

[This message edited by doggiediva at 11:17 AM, October 11th (Friday)]

Wow - talk about classic turning it back on you and blameshifting.....AND IT IS WORKING.

She did all this - then threw a tissy fit....and you went and got her water because SHE is upset? She should be begging at your feet.

I am sorry - but her reaction is pi$$ing me off.

I don't care what the $ex issue is - DO NOT let her spin that back onto an excuse for her A!!! Then she continues it and lied more.

Ugh.

Keep standing your ground. SHE DOES NOT have the upper hand here, you do. Time she realizes that and gets onboard with the plan.

That entire thing about them having a date tonight....then can't go because you found out....so now she wants you guys to go instead???? Who would want to go out knowing it was to be their date and you are the back-up?

I am sorry you are going through this but just because she said "sorry" this time is not enough.

That entire thing about them having a date tonight....then can't go because you found out....so now she wants you guys to go instead???? Who would want to go out knowing it was to be their date and you are the back-up?

I hate to defend her but the date with us came up as a stand in for her not calling of work to talk about it. She did end up not going into work and coming home. We had the babysitter coming and decided to still go.

In the meantime I'm playing phone tag with the lawyer.

Looks like she planning a girls night out next week. What do I do about that? I want to tell her not to go. I also just want to pack up the kids and go to my parents that weekend.