SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I am not offended. I understand I am looking at all this through my BLUE Sunglasses on.

With this Generalization, for Recovery/Reconciliation purposes, does that mean I need to be more patient, probably...and concentrate more on 180 to help me heal. I need

I don't think it's an excused, but men and women are both wired differently and see things differently.

There is no excuse for anything, but what I am saying is, R is much harder due to these differences if you want your WS back.

This is not about CRUELTY. The fact, that even did this to us is cruel enough, and they left us here to figure out things on our own instead of picking up the pieces speaks about their character in such a high volume.

We can be CRUEL BS's and not give them a chance to come back if we wanted to or make their life a living hell, desiring vengeance.

And Ladies, I am not discounting your pain. I know it must feel like a living hell, not knowing your WH, is telling the truth, if the affair has gone underground, when's the next bunch of trickle truth going to come. I know finding out all the information you possibly have at this point doesn't help.

I am not jealous of pain, I am jealous of those who WS was remorseful and actually wanted to comeback. Who wanted to work on it and fix it. That's what I am jealous of but I feel hurt for everyone on here who had to experience this pain, male and female.

I can understand and relate to both. We are all being fed bull crap out of the wazoo.

I am sure everyone feels the same from a personal view but from a whole. I wish their was a poll to show how long it took for each to come out of the fog or how long it took remorse. Do a comparison.

Not sure how it's offensive, but the reality is every story is different...

I know it's pointless to view it as gender base but it's hard not to read, the JFO stories, the General stories and the recovery stories, and the I Can Relate. You read those and you think man, it seems so easy to get from the most destructive force in nature, to the greatest marriage on earth but it takes work. The process from getting from one to the other is not short.

Heck, right now I feel like I am talking out of my head. Having got a good nights sleep for a while because working late hours...

Sorry if I offended anyone...

From the male side, I think the term "cheating husband" conjures an image of some guy leering at his secretary in a tight dress.

"Cheating wife" conjures an image of the Virgin Mary behaving in a most inappropriate way.

I am not trying to offend anyone with a religious slight, or minimize any woman's pain, just giving the example I think a lot of men feel. Obviously its an over-simplified thought.

Heck, right now I feel like I am talking out of my head. Having got a good nights sleep for a while because working late hours...

You're struggling to understand and come to terms with what's happened in your marriage and see through the pain to make good decisions for yourself. That is so understandable, man.

I'm not offended- not that I matter in this, but just putting it out there - because you're trying to process something that is all sharp edges and hurts you whichever way you flip it in your mind. If you flip it in a way that lets you process it a bit more, do it.

I've read some of your other posts and I know you're really struggling with thoughts of R and D and that's a very hard place to be. You will work through it.

With this Generalization, for Recovery/Reconciliation purposes, does that mean I need to be more patient, probably...and concentrate more on 180 to help me heal.

I think you need to focus on your own healing and less on potential outcomes of your WS decisions. If you focus on getting yourself to a stable place, you will be better able to deal with anything that happens after that. D or R. You need some solid ground under you to face either, and to be able to make good choices. That's what the 180 gives you.

After everything I have seen, and then the experiences of others that I know, I've come to the conclusion that neither sex is necessarily "worse".

However, from my own observations and experiences, it does seem like women are more creative in their maliciousness. Seems like our higher level of socializing and social skills can have a dark side.

The male WS seems to be indifferent and more actively cruel. The women WS seems to be more subtle, which in itself can be perceived as an even crueler form of cruelty in itself.

But the intent and ferocity or "worseness", seem to be the same levels.

Each person is different in their cruelty too! And each BS is different in what hurts them more.

Yuck, I'm not making any sense, but I know what I mean.

Hmm... my WH fits all of your description of a WW... maybe he's actually a woman and I never noticed?

men and women are both wired differently

I think that's an experimental question. Right now, the only difference I'll accept is that men can impregnate women, and women bear children and nourish them when they're infants, and not vice versa.

Every other difference I can think of could be cultural and nurtured rather than natural.

But that's theoretical, and not really a good topic for helping people survive infidelity.

My real questions, Lost Samurai, are these:

Has this thread helped you heal?

If so, how has it helped you heal?

Has this help me heal...

No, but it did make me stop and stand back for a minute. Were all in the same boat no matter how you look at it.

I am not special in this regard. We are all struggling with an unfaithful spouse who didn't remorse right away or comeback right away.

I agree that infidelity - specifically, the choice involved on the part of the WS - is such a personal and selfish behavior that gender cannot be, be definition, a determining factor.

However, I absolutely believe there is a huge difference in the way that we as a society generally portray and view WS's, based on gender, and a lot of this comes from media, books, movies, and TV.

It seems to me the prevailing stereotype for a cheating man is of a entirely selfish, indulgent, lecherous, egotistical pig who hurts others with a more reckless abandon.

Unfaithful women, however, seem to be more apt to be viewed with sympathy: the convenient and handy myth that they're simply "stuck" in "unhappy" marriages, and cheating is part of a strong, independent and courageous woman's "journey" to "find themselves".

Yes, all those quotes are intended...they formed the basis of my own XWW's post-facto script. Even today, she has friends and family that are impressed by her strength and courage to "make it on her own".

Unfortunately, that means re-writing almost 20 self-professed happy years together; our marriage had flaws like any marriage, but only one of us chose to deal with those problems by cheating.

However, I absolutely believe there is a huge difference in the way that we as a society generally portray and view WS's, based on gender, and a lot of this comes from media, books, movies, and TV.

Now this I DO agree with. I think unfaithful women are treated much more sympathetically in the media.

I'm going to assume you're coming at this from a place of pain, and try really, really hard not to be offended by your blanket generalization about women. So to answer your question, WW seem worse to you than WH do because that's your only experience. It's natural to feel as what you are personally experiencing is worse, because you are the one in pain.

And there could very well be some truth in that. I don't know your story, but it could be that it's one of the worse here on SI. But let me tell you that in the over 5 years here, I've seen vindictive ex-WHs take the kids away from their moms. I've seen a BW who contracted AIDS from her WH, because he didn't bother to tell her he was HIV positive, because that meant he'd have to admit to cheating. I've seen plenty of stories about NPD ex-WH dragging the BS (and kids) through legal battle after legal battle.

Personally, I have an ex who was too chickenshit to tell me he got herpes, until 4 years after the fact. This was after I finally caught him cheating, and had gone for STD testing, btw. He only admitted to it because I accidentally found his prescription.

This is the same guy who also went to work one day, and never came home. He never bothered to say goodbye or offer an explanation to his kids. Just packed up his shit in secret, and went to work like every other day. Months later I saw where he had posted pictures on facebook of the vacation he took with OW the same month he walked out on me and the kids. Yep, everything my kids needed to learn about their dad they saw on facebook.

My point is it's not just the WW. Whether it's the second W or an H doesn't matter. It's the W that stands for Wayward that determines in great part what their behavior will be. And most often it's really shitty to have to deal with, for the BS.

Thank you inconnu

There is a marriage and sex specialist very famous in my country.

2 weeks ago he was on a show and was asked about infidelity.

First he said that both men and women are not monogamous by nature.

He said that men need ego boost and sex. Their indidelities are more superficial and the majority goes back to "their nest".

When women take the slippery slope it is usually a more long term and profound decision. The majority of women tend to leave "the nest". He also added that when a woman makes the decision to divorce it's usually irreversable because she might have been thinking about this for years.

Of course there are lots of exceptions and other factors such as character, FOO, experiences, circumstances.

I haven't read the previous posts, but here's how I look at it:

Both the AP and my XWH met on Ashley Madison.

Both of them met at a clandestine location, sneaking away from their families instead of opting to be with them.

They both engaged in unprotected sex, risking their health and the health of their spouses.

They both invited complete strangers into their lives, neither knowing nor caring if the person was psychotic and thus a threat to them and their families.

When the A was discovered, they both happily divorced their spouses and married each other as soon as their divorces were final.

They also happily moved in together, forcing the five young children they have between them into an untenable blended family situation that only works somewhat now because my kids live mostly with me, and all of them are still pretty young.

XWH spent money on the AP. I don't know if she ever spent money on him.

When I look at the evidence, I think they're both pretty shitty. They both behaved in exactly the same low, deceptive, and selfish ways; their genders didn't seem to have much of an impact on their choices. Perhaps my XWH spent money because "the man" is "supposed" to be the one who does that, but again, I have no idea if the AP did or not.

Perhaps you feel the way you do because women are "supposed" to be the nurturers of the children or are "supposed" to be more compassionate. Obviously, those are stereotypes as I'm sure we all know plenty of men who behave that way.

I think we have to step away from gender and look more at mindset. There are just as many evil people on both sides of the aisle as there are decent ones. It just depends on whether or not you feel entitled to do whatever you want, I think. I wasn't raised that way, but I think my XWH was to some extent.

It's all about perception.... I have seen mean, rude, abusive WH's treat their wife like dirt... but I have also seen a WW who did such awful things it was not even funny! It wasn't enough for her to divorce... she wanted the ex destroyed... falsely accused him of molesting the kids. Nearly destroyed him financially, emotionally, and his freedom in on fell swoop so her new 'honey' could adopt the kids and she wouldn't have to share the kids.

I have seen both sides... it makes no difference if it is a male or female. Some people are just evil at heart.

The only silver lining to my shitty situation is, my ww is nowhere as evil and destructive as a lot of these WW I keep reading about. I'VE told her, one of the reasons I love and married her was bc of her heart. She has a loving and giving heart.

I might have to change my stance on that with what she's done, but overall, she's still loving and caring. I may have been "lucky" and asked her about it early on and she confessed without me having to dig. It was just a gut instinct and she was able to be honest about it. This may have prevented a stronger bond between her and the om.

Or I'm just a fool and she's playing me like a sucker. Only time will tell. My difference is, I walked away immediately and will have no problems walking if she Fucks up. It will be the hardest thing to do, letting her go, but I know it will be for the best. I do not want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me or in limbo.

I read your title, you did in fact preface it with the word

Seem

And that is exactly what's happening. It "seems" that this is the case.

Observational Selection Bias

Your sample of "cruelty and hurtful" people is being pulled from one population...women. That is your observation so it makes sense that this is pool from which you search. You don't have a WH and you attention is probably not drawn to stories of equally stubborn, cruel WH's.

It's normal.

Normal people do this on a daily basis without realizing it. It may not be A related, but without realizing it we all have these kinds of programs running in the back of our own minds (subconsciously)

Right now you are focused outside of your healing on the search for patterns. It sounds like you might still be stuck in a form of bargaining.

I didn't find your post offensive.

You aren't doing anything that many of us didn't do. Except I developed a bias about certain professions and car brands and names.

I think you are stuck in a very normal part of the processing. It's really important that you get your hands on some tools and maybe a towline from someone whose "been there done that", to get yourself unstuck.

Now you can be aware of this bias. This will help you get your healing refocused.

I find it more reprehensible what WW do to their children who they carried in their own womb. That's why the saying is "maternal instinct." To have your own mother throw you and your family away for her own selfish luurve sickens me.

Maybe I do have some mistaken built-in assumptions about the maternal instinct " trumping" the paternal instinct, but this ^^ is something that has boggled my mind and causes me unending pain. True, although my STBX did not "truly" abandon our children, she left her family physically and emotionally. She made a decision which has destroyed our children's innocence and shattered what was a wonderful, sacred family. She has chosen to not be with her young children for half of their remaining childhood.

Yes, she came from a similarly broken family so maybe this is "normal" to her, but I still marvel bitterly that her maternal bond--a family bond--would not supersede her personal history; indeed, that she would want more than anything to embrace and sustain that which she did not have herself.

My 2 cents....

I was talking to a friend about this only today....

We believe men tend value sex over emotion... That sex brings them emotionally closer....making the relationship stronger

Where as women tend to value emotion over sex... Deeper emotion brings better sex brings better relationship.

If our husbands are emotionally 'vacant' it creates a lack of sex drive ..... Where our husbands use their sex drive to get emotionally closer.....

Does that make sense.

In terms of whose worse. WS are all broken. Period. I guess to each of us the depth of hurt depends on what we've hot invested in the relationship

I think, as Refuz2bavictim said, that it's observational selection bias. There's not some huge difference between genders, and hopefully both genders are equally and properly shamed for cheating.

And Ladies, I am not discounting your pain. I know it must feel like a living hell, not knowing your WH, is telling the truth, if the affair has gone underground, when's the next bunch of trickle truth going to come. I know finding out all the information you possibly have at this point doesn't help.

I am not jealous of pain, I am jealous of those who WS was remorseful and actually wanted to comeback. Who wanted to work on it and fix it.

I think you're implying that WWs are less likely than WHs to come back to fix it, and that therefore women are worse. This is incorrect. What TryingAgain74 said: in many cases, they both left their families. There's really no way to get accurate information and statistics, since cheaters are notorious liars and many of them won't admit they're cheating even to a census reporter. That's why the stats can vary so widely. They hinge on any given day on the honesty of a dishonest group, know what I mean? We can't compare.

I do have a question for you:

Can things really be that bad for a WW that they decide, to give up on the M, their family, their children, their God?

Do you feel WHs are as shamed for cheating on their children as WWs are? Or do you feel there's a disproportionate view of woman as mother and held more accountable for the family (even though both partners are equally important and should be held equally accountable) - and that therefore, when a woman abandons their children, it's viewed as worse than when a man abandons their children? Honestly curious. I hope it's viewed in society as equally heinous, no matter what gender the parent is.

LostSamurai....have not read all the responses but did read some. I think adultery is deep, bitter pain for all involved.

I do, however, agree with your original opening statement.

I do because of my sitch. My wife did not dump her AP. When she would tell him she wanted to end the affair and just be friends....it was always her to break that agreement with him.

The end of her affair ONLY occurred after he fucked her....then he dumped her.

There is nothing about my wifes affair that ever indicated to me that she was willing to choose me or our family over it.

The fact that he found another woman to replace my wife within months of dumping her tells me she was nothing special to him....just a warm wet hole, of which he gladly and actively sought out another one quite easily.

So, in my specific sitch, my wife was way more into him, way more willing to risk it all for the affair, then her fAP ever was.

That whole "women are nurtures" thing does play into this. My wife swore passionately that, while she did hurt me she "Would never do anything to hurt her girls!!".

My mind, due to societal influences or whatever, believes this was how it was....Moms dont do this...especially "caring, nurturing moms" like MY wife.

Of course we all realize how destructive adultery is to all it touches....including and especially to children. We have seen a change in our girls via the tension my wifes affair has brought into our home.

Perhaps that is one of the big rubs?

Honestly, I knew adultery happened...but thought it a "mans problem". I have no idea who I thought these guys were fucking....but somehow i missed the fact that there must be an equal number of women involved....a cross sample of society on that side too. From bar maids to SAHM's.

Another take.....look at how many male adulter's use prostitutes. I see it often here on SI....men using prostitutes. I can't recall a single SI member whos wife used male prostitutes.

I think that fact alone warrants that there could be a fundamental difference in how men approach adultery vs how women approach and view it.

As far as crafty and manipulative go? Women can be more crafty...but once I figured out my wife was capable of adultery...making it something to look for.....she was not nearly as crafty as I gave her credit for.

God help us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 10:43 AM, February 18th (Tuesday)]