SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I'm a lawyer whose carer was in court. So I know the argumentative nature of debates others suffer with us. Hey, it's hard for us to change masks just because we're not in court.

What I told my clients who were facing cross exam was to keep every statement short. Don't offer explanations unless asked. Nobody ever got into trouble by saying less, or nothing at all. Don't fill conversational silences once you've said your yes, no or I don't know. If she's silent too long, it's a trap to get you to blabber.

Don't debate your minimums. Such as

Y: I will not have a marriage with another person of your choice in it.

her: yes, but you cheated on me and yet you cannot accept hat I could do the same.

Y: I am talking about my current Ned, not your feelings from long ago. Can you agree to a two person M with NC?

Her: you don't understand that you have (insert claimed failing here)

Y: you aren't responding to my question about whether you are willing to stop communicating with AP.

And so on. Don't let her change the subject in other words. You'll never get an answer if you don't keep your eyes and comments on the current issue.

HP - I think you are really too raw yet to be able to make your ultimatum and stick to it.

You are going to give her that beautifully written heart felt letter, and she is going to destroy you with it. She is justify, rationalize, and minimize any feeling, need, or demand you make.

DO NOT GIVE HER THAT.

You have to absolutely take the approach of simply stating with no emotion, no tears, no yelling no screaming that it ends now, or we end now, and be fully prepared to walk. Honestly I don't think she will stop, she has never saw the need to respect you, and do as you have asked your entire relationship, and yes I read that long story. You are not going to change her and honestly have to believe that she has either NPD, or a Histrionic PD that has gone untreated and embraced her entire life.

You deserve more, and only you can say you have had enough. I would suggest that you really start focusing on you, your worth, and getting your ducks in a row. Throw the 180 at her hard. The only purpose of that is to quit exposing yourself to her abuses, and yes her behavior throughout the entirety of your relationship is abusive. When you start to step back, and not be so emotionally involved you will see it.

I hope that you can start to find your strength, I would urge you to read some information, and strategies on overcoming codpendence, and cycles of abuse. You may be surprised how close you can relate.

Keep reading, keep posting, know that even if the advice here is harsh, and overwhelming that many of us have walked in your shoes, and have felt the pain, and want to prevent you from making the same mistakes we have.

((((and strength)))

I feel like such a fool. Like why does she even think this is all ok?

Because you told her it was, the second you gave your ok for them to be 'friends' because she was acting like a big baby crying and staring at her phone.

Passivity is not attractive to a woman, nor will it win you any favor in this situation.

All it will do is get you disrespected by her for being so wishy-washy, and more importantly, cheated on again because you gave her permission to continue her affair.

Sappy love letters will get you nowhere. Honestly, it's time to man up and take control of the situation.

HP: Speaking as a woman whose husband were to behave like you are, I would not respect you. It's not a sexy or alluring trait to be confronted by a man who is begging for scraps. Your WW is metaphorically gagging at your weakness.

Everyone here has given you salient advice. What I can point you to is the sorry saga of 'SaveUs' on the JFO thread. Read his story and then ask yourself whether what he is doing is the right course of action. Then read the threads of 'Allatsea' and 'Abbandonedad'. You will have a wealth of experience to take heed of.

Don't wait until the weekend to read her the riot act. She won't like you any the more or less for it. Her head's into her affair and you might as well be cold soup...

You guys are a tough crowd, and I LOVE it!

I must have read and re-read this thread about 20 times so far today. Its really starting to soak in.

I want to make that 180 my mantra. I'm drilling it into my brain. Its very opposite of what I am like, so its going to take some time.

I honestly never new I was such a wuss....I'm over 6ft tall, and just as wide, and have a big ol' beard. I've been told that I can be intimidating and in my real world, most people would say "hey, Paddy's nice and all but don't piss him off! He will tear you a new one!" That is true in every part of my life, except when it comes to my wife I turn into a spineless runt.

You all have helped give me the strength that I've been looking for. I do appreciate the very real and very strong advice. I seriously cannot thank you all enough.

I don't have the ability yet to send private messages but when I do, I will be sending out many thank you notes. I appreciate every bit of advice....and for being called out on some of my own BS.

Can I just recommend that you do NOT bring any type of gauntlet down right now, this weekend, or any time soon?

You theoretically *could* give her an ultimatum right now, but part of the 180 is:

Don't be nasty, angry or even cold - Just pull yourself back. Don't always be so available? for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you're missing.

No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Make yourself be someone they would want to be around. Not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.

All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation!

Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control? YOURSELF!

Seriously, just be Michael Jordan and pull a fade-away. I mean, what if she says, "Oh, ok, sure, I'm not going to talk to him anymore." Are you really going to believe that?!? Are you going to believe her if she says she's going to stop talking to him? Given she has fought so hard for her "friendship," I just really doubt there is going to be any type of sustained "no contact" between them for a very long time. You **CANNOT** reconcile unless there is NO CONTACT between them.

And YOU should NOT be forced to wait around or to try to tell her HOW to do it. You can't dictate what happens in this relationship. You can only control you.

There is just NOTHING she can say right now. You need to back up from all of this and heal and respect yourself and enjoy your life. You don't NEED anyone to bring you happiness. You find it from within.

And honestly? She really should be able to figure out WHY you are pulling away all on her own. You don't need to spell it out for her. If she starts badgering you or bashing you, WALK AWAY. Do NOT get caught up in arguments with her. It's so freakin obvious to most people that this situation is fucked up. Don't let her try to convince you that it's not fucked up, and don't get into lengthy explanations of why it's fucked up. This is useless contact between you two..

And as much as we do NOT want you to send her any types of letters (which also would be breaking the 180, and is normally futilely done to try to persuade the wayward to wake up), it really was a beautiful letter. Save it. Keep posting your feelings here to us. WE get it. WE understand your pain. She, however, does not. It is only ammunition to her right now. Not that I condone your EA, but you do NOT have to defend yourself against her accusations anymore. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DEFEND YOURSELF OR SAY SORRY TO HER.

Communication with her right now should be simple, polite, and to the point. Just start making your boundaries and enforcing the consequences if she doesn't respect them.

And while I do think your wife has a personality disorder and don't see much hope here, pulling the 180 does NOT automatically mean divorce. It's you stepping up and demanding respect. Sometimes this leads to the wayward "breaking out of the fog" and truly becoming remorseful. But there are so many other times where the wayward could "say" that they are remorseful now, but really they are just manipulating you and/or hoovering you and/or taking their affair underground. I would advise you to wait so long before trying to get her to come back to you. She needs major IC if she is ever to become a healthy partner for you. MC would be useless right now. So you focus on healing you, and just wait and see what she does.. If you 180 and you lose them (like happened to me), well then they were never going to give you the respect you deserve anyway..

Sending strength to you bro.. Keep posting.. We are here to yell at you to not make the same mistakes we did

[This message edited by ButterflyGirl at 11:38 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)]

Thanks. That sounds like a great plan. I'm studying the 180 and keep reading it over and over. Just have to stick to it!!

When I get home tonight, I'm going to imagine that you all are right behind me cheering me on. Just need to stick to my guns and I won't let her break me...

((HighlandPaddy))

I am so sorry for the pain you are in. I will be thinking of you. We have all been there - you are not alone in this.

You deserve better.

HLP - We ARE all right behind you!! Every time you want to cave, post here! Every time she starts hoovering (sucking you back in), post here! Most importantly, EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU START TO QUESTION YOUR HARD STANCE ON THIS, POST HERE!!!

Regarding your letter/script - I agree - you're giving WAY too much away there. If I might make a suggest:

She's a lawyer. She's a debater, and she's good at it. The answer? Don't engage. Write her a short, to the point letter. Not a letter saying you want this or that to work out, or that you love her. I'm thinking more along the lines of this:

"WW, When I said you could remain friends with AP, I was confused from the newness of this affair. I was unsure of myself, and you stated it would be 'just friends'. I was wrong. It is unacceptable for you to be friends with the man you cheated on me with. Effective immediately, any further contact with AP will be dealt with as any other man would deal with adultery - it will not be tolerated.

HighlandPaddy"

This does NOT have you doing anything but laying out your boundaries, what you will accept and not accept, and how you will handle each situation. Do NOT profess love - she'll use that to think she still has you. Do NOT say you want it to work out. She will use this as well.

The offer to reconcile is in this letter, but you have left it up to her. She will know you are willing, but only if she makes changes.

You don't need to use this letter, it's just what I would do, but please, don't use love, or offer or state your desire to reconcile. That needs to be her decision. As long as you're saying you want her, she'll hear that what she's been doing isn't so bad. If it was, you would leave. Show her it is that bad by telling her you WILL leave.

(((((hugs)))))

Please, whatever you do, do it soon. Each second you wait is another second you feel lower and lower.

We are here for you!!!

Edit: If you do give her such a letter, hand it to her without saying a word, and leave the room, or the house. Just leave her alone to read it and let it sink in.

[This message edited by painfulpast at 1:17 PM, July 3rd (Thursday)]

Are you also NC with your own affair partner? I'm hoping the answer is very much yes.

HP,

If she is a lawyer, you need to be a fortress. The more words you use, the more holes there are in your fortress for her to wiggle her way into.

Keep things extremely short. Reduce the openings in your fortress to 0.

You:

"If you cannot keep NC with OM, I will have to reconsider my decision to stay in this M."

Her:

"Yea but you said I could talk to him."

You:

"I changed my mind." (and then walk away.)

You need to adjust the 180 to the parts that work n your situation. If your WW is not at all remorseful some of it will only give her more space to cheat on you . Personally I think you need to make it clear you are not participating in a marriage with three or more people in it.

She needs to be told she can either accept that or not but it is not negotiable.

For once, I have to,slightly disagree with Badhurt. She IS cheating. She doesn't need any more room to do so than you have given her. I agree that maybe not all of the points in 180 can be employed by you. But the key ones can such as living your own life, not engaging in marital discussions, being pleasant, not being a whining weak beggar, and making your must haves clearly known to her not as debating points but as minimum requirements.

The 180 is to get you to detach emotionally from her when she lacks any signs of remorse. That's what you need to do to escape the Hell you are in. Drift away from her and your old marriage which is history even if R occurs.