SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I am a mother of 4, 3 surviving. I didn't teach my children the way you did. I didn't throw them in front of a car in the street to teach them about looking both ways, I never had them touch fire to learn that it can burn you, I didn't throw them in a pool to teach them about drowning, etc. etc.

Sister milkshake:

I think you need to actually read my post. I did not say any of those things quoted, and yes indeed those actions would be child abuse. You can NOT touch skin to fire even briefly without causing a minor burn.

I said I "briefly (for a nanosecond) touched their hand to a radiator to feel the heat. Their hand is in mine as it is done. It takes quite a while for radiator to burn flesh. And, I explain as I do it that I am going to show them the heat it gives off. It's not a punishment. It's a controlled lesson.

They learned quickly to stay away from that radiator, and to not ignore the danger it presents.

My niece, did not learn when told many times verbally by her mother, and gave herself a nasty burn by pressing her leg too long against a working radiator.

As for the pool thing. Well, I had a certified child swim instructor gently float them on the pool until they could stay afloat on their own. I think swimming is a life saving skill to learn a early as possible.

But Who throws their children in a pool to teach them to swim? IF you know people who do that, please tell them to stop, the child could indeed drown. Not all have an immediate instinctual urge to swim.

Oh, and where did I say I threw them in front of a car to teach them to look both ways?

I never mentioned pools or traffic.

But when I teach children about traffic, I will stand at the curb allowing them to feel the whoosh of the speeding cars and to see how fast they move. But did I even mention traffic or swimming?

So, please read my post.

Love to me is wanting only happiness, safety, and comfort for our spouses.

I agree.

I would never wish crushing pain on anyone I love.

Well if experiencing the emotional pain they caused to their loved one prevents a cheating spouse from cheating then you are providing them safety happiness and comfort by preventing them from potential physical or emotional harm from the affair.

Sometimes the most loving thing a person can do is to go out of their way to teach their loved one a valuable lesson.

If your husband is truly remorseful, then me must feel shame and guilt and embarrassment, and he is lucky he did not catch a deadly STD or two or that the OW's husband did not harm him.

Had he caught a deadly STD, he would have left his children fatherless all for a romp in the hay. If something he feels prevents that, then you have made him happy and safe and comfortable. HIV is a very uncomfortable way to die.

But, in the end Sister milkshake you are entitled to your feelings and beliefs.

So, we will have to agree to disagree, on this one.

I am glad you are in a good reconciliation and I pray you never have to experience the pain of infidelity again.

For my wayward though, I would like to be able to have Dr. spock from Startrek do a mindmeld on my husband to have him experience the pain his infidelity caused.

I think that would spur any person with a conscious to stop cheating.

Alas some people have no conscience and separating the wheat from the Chaff can be difficulty if the person with no conscience has their mask firmly in place.

.....Or if you saw the movie "Powder"

Do you remember where the character Powder, a psychic super normal human, transmitted the pain and despair the dying mother deer felt after being shot by the man?

Did you notice that it prevented the man from ever wanting to kill a deer again.

That's the type of experience I am hoping for with my wayward.

Oh and I am sorry to hear of your one child that did not survive. It must feel like hell losing one of your children.

I am sorry that my post wasn't clear to you, seethelight. I know you didn't post the things I wrote about in regards to children. I was just trying (lamely, I guess) to make the point that one doesn't have to feel the pain to learn the lesson.

if experiencing the emotional pain they caused to their loved one prevents a cheating spouse from cheating

That is one reason not to cheat. The more important reason not to cheat, imo, is because you lose your integrity. You corrupt yourself. That is more of the reason I would never cheat is because I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror. I work very hard to not make any promise's I can not keep. I took my vows very seriously. I swore before a church full of family and friends to be faithful to my husband. I would let myself down if I committed adultery.

I don't want my FWH to experience the pain his infidelity has caused me. I want him to understand the pain he has caused me, though.

Oh and I am sorry to hear of your one child that did not survive. It must feel like hell losing one of your children.

Thank you. Yes, it is the worst grief I have ever experienced.

In imaginationland, infidelity would have the following consequences:

Fast divorce where WS gets NOTHING except half of the debt of the marriage. All assets remain with the BS

All love notes, texts, pictures, etc are made public. That's right - the entire world gets to read their mushy, lie-filled fantasy fog 12 year old dribble.

Finally - WS has to stay with AP. As we all know, they always affair down, and they pick people as low as they can find to 'play' with. So keep 'em! Stay with OM/OW. Have a greeeeeaaaaaat life together - LMFAO!!!

oh, if only imaginationland were real...

OH YESSSSSSSS!!!!!!!

Fairness would have been if I'd had been able to immediately divorce him and have 100% custody of our kids. Then he could have had 100% of his time with f'd up married AP.

OH YESSSSSSSS!!!!!!!

38 years.

As I mentioned in an earlier post. I agree. That would be a fair, just and fitting consequence.

IMO, actions have consequences and it is good for the rest of the world at large to see others experience the consequence of negative behaviors.

Most humans do not fall into the category of being good just because. And, the mentioned consequence at least protects the faithful spouse from grievous harm on all fronts...emotionally, financially, custodially, etc.

Fairness would have been if I'd had been able to immediately divorce him and have 100% custody of our kids. Then he could have had 100% of his time with f'd up married AP.

Good point, I think a lot of faithful spouses do not want to divorce because they don't want to have to be a part time mom or dad, due to their spouses cheating.

They also likely don't want the OW or OM having any say in how their children are raised, either.

Thank you. Yes, it is the worst grief I have ever experienced.

Sister Milkshake:

I can only imagine, and again, I am sorry to hear that.

I am curios about your screen name?

Does it have significance in your life, or was it just a random selection?

If you are at the point where you feel that your spouse needs consequences then maybe a D needs to be considered.

And thank you SMS, you posted exactly what I was thinking. BTW, haven't seen you around much lately, missed you posting

[This message edited by tired girl at 11:05 AM, August 7th (Thursday)]

If you are at the point where you feel that your spouse needs consequences then maybe a D needs to be considered.

Tired girl:

That's an interesting comment. What is your logic for that philosophy?

Do you think that a faithful spouse should just say: It's okay that you deceived me and lied to me, your loyal spouse, and hurt your children by stealing time and money and emotional energy from them, and now I will agree to reconcile, without you having any consequence for your treacherous behaviors??????

Do you think there should be no consequence for negative behaviors that hurt others?

If not, can you share with us, why? I would really like to understand your logic.

D is not always the immediate consequence of cheating for many reasons. Some practical...others emotional....others because the loyal spouse is simply dumbstruck and frozen with indecision.

In a good reconciliation, The old marriage is dead a new one must be formed.

Forming a new marriage takes time.

And their is always the risk that the faithful spouse will not think the new marriage can ever live up to the way they PERCEIVED the old one to be, prior to learning of the deception and betrayal of the affair.

Divorce though does not necessarily teach the wayward any lesson that might stimulate empathy.

Some people even have exit affairs as a way to push the spouse to divorce them, rather than filing themselves.

It's suggested in basic psychology, when raising a child, to Teach that actions have consequences.

Why do you think that is? Do you think that teaching that actions have consequence is the wrong thing?

Adults who have affairs hurt others profoundly, they hurt their spouses and their children, too, and sometimes they even hurt or disappoint parents and inlaws, and other relatives who thought the waywards were trustworthy and loyal people.

So isn't showing them that actions have consequences just good psychology, no matter what point the reconciliation is at?

If it's basic psychology, and a strong point of behavioral psychology to think that we need to teach children that actions have consequences....

and they always do in the real world, don't they?.... .....then shouldn't adults practice what they preach and teach their children by setting an example?

Here are some Links to advice for teaching children that actions have consequences.

http://www.spsychserv.com/Articles%20of%20Interest/Parent%27s%20Guide%20to%20Natural%20and%20Logical%20Consequences.html

http://www.today.com/id/5846776/ns/today-parenting_and_family/t/kid-got-bad-attitude-heres-how-change-it/#.U-PIz6g2EU0

http://www.empoweringparents.com/How-to-Get-Your-Child-to-Listen-Giving-Effective-Consequences.php#

Simple. My H is an adult, not a child. I don't feel that I am in a position to teach him anything. That is his job. He is either going to do it or he isn't. If he isn't, I D him. I am his wife, his equal, not better than him.

You seem to think you are better than your H, and you can school him. Wonder what he thinks of that.

His consequences are knowing that my best friend, not him, will be my confidant from here on out. He will know things that I want to share after she knows. He will possibly see our baby after she does. He also gets to see the pain in my eyes daily. He gets to see how he destroyed us. My list goes on, but consequences, if they ever feel bad at all, are within themselves living with it.

IMO, the only consequences I can deem fair are some that I personally will never be able to enact.

Fair would be to go through what I go through. Feel what I have felt. I would never be able to bring such justice myself, cause WS doesn't care if I live or die, at least thats how I feel about it.

However, one day, she will care for someone the way I did. They will build a life and family together, and this person might be able to make us both square by doing the exact same thing to her, that she did to me.

I could be wrong about this, but it's my opinion, and fair would be to go through it just like we all did.

DEATH for all involved.

..@ leakingheart..

funny you should mention 'DEATH'..

..that's exactly what OM got for his efforts to use my gf/wife for oral sex.. for 18 years, while pretending to be my bf..

..brain tumour at 57. awwwwwwwwww ..too bad!

..smy

I would say guilt and shame are the consequences, but since he did it again 3 years later, I guess he didn't feel any of that. I would say even loss of honor and integrity, but since he f***ed ow2 in a church parking lot, I'm guessing he didn't have anything to lose there either. I don't share my feelings with him anymore, I talk to my best friend now, I guess that's a consequence. But I doubt he cares much about that, all that means to him is he won't have to hear it anymore. I know there are some on this site who have spouses who are genuinely remorseful, spouses who suffer with them. Those among us who have given the great gift of R over and over again, only to be devastated by yet another betrayal suffer alone. I do however, agree there should be financial considerations given to betrayed spouses in divorce. It would at least alleviate some worry, especially if you're a SAHM. In the end, I guess what my mother always said is true, living well is the best revenge.

I would say guilt and shame are the consequences, but since he did it again 3 years later, I guess he didn't feel any of that.

See that is why I leave the door to divorce wide open. So many times here we see a betrayed spouse who thought he/she was in a real reconciliation, but the wayward cheats again.

I talk to my best friend now, I guess that's a consequence. But I doubt he cares much about that, all that means to him is he won't have to hear it anymore.

I agree, that's not really a consequence. A consequence is something that takes something away from them.

It's basic behavioral psychology. Like grounding a misbehaving child for a week.

IMO, married people who have affairs without a care or concern for the ramifications to their wife or at very least their children, are acting very immature.

Since divorce is not always an option for some people because they don't want some stranger influencing their children by raising them part time, IMO, the financial consequence and the consequence of feeling the pain they caused would be just and fair.

I do however, agree there should be financial considerations given to betrayed spouses in divorce. It would at least alleviate some worry, especially if you're a SAHM.

Yes. I do think a larger percentage of the marital assets and higher alimony to a betrayed spouse, automatically, without needing to make lawyers rich, should go to the faithful spouse.

As far as I can tell, negative consequences are about hurting someone. I don't see how the BS can hurt the WS without hurting himself in the process. Accepting that is part of R, and I don't see how a BS can R without accepting that.

IOW, R requires 1) mercy and 2) foregoing justice.

I think, seethelight, that you have more faith in negative conditioning than is warranted. Many WSes empathize with their BS's pain on d-day but can't/won't keep themselves from cheating again - because cheating comes from within the cheater, and not from outside.

Negative conditioning works on some people some of the time. Maybe I'd go so far as to say it works on most people some of the time. But negative conditioning is always open to failure, because we can't control anyone, even - especially - our kids. All we can do is guide them and hope for the best.

Scaring people straight shows too much evidence of being a losing strategy. Just sayin'....

If you believe in negative conditioning, how about a shock collar that shocks anytime they think about anyone else?

My WH sees me hurting, it's almost unbearable for him to watch. But he needs to see this.

As far as I can tell, negative consequences are about hurting someone. I don't see how the BS can hurt the WS without hurting himself in the process. Accepting that is part of R, and I don't see how a BS can R without accepting that.

The lesson is that SOMETIMES consequences do hurt the person engaging in an action.

Actions have consequences. A person's behavior/actions have natural or logical consequences.

we teach that to children.

Are we hurting ourselves when we teach children that actions have consequences or protecting our children from future foolishness, embarrassment, and pain through unacceptable actions?

People who engage in affairs are often acting like children.....entitled, self-absorbed, selfish, me me me first.

A natural or logical consequence of an action is not the same as negative or positive reinforcement A.K.A. operant conditioning.

Neither punishment nor permission, "logical consequence" helps children learn alternative ways to behave.

Why should this NOT apply to adults acting like children.

There ARE natural and logical consequences to actions devoid of a person's desire to condition someone's behavior.

Yes, consequences are sometimes painful, but that is how people learn, by experiencing the consequence of their actions.

When no consequence is experienced by a wayward what incentive do they have to change.

All of society has consequences for all sorts of actions.

Some people are reformable others aren't even with consequences, but without consequences NO ONE HAS ANY incentive to abide by morals or rules.

For example. There are social rules already in place....Rob a bank go to jail. Some people don't care about going to jail and will rob the bank anyway.

But far more people obviously do because the ratio of people to banks robbed is low.

If there were no painful consequence to robbing a bank, why not do it, whenever one needs money.

My WH sees me hurting, it's almost unbearable for him to watch. But he needs to see this.

Exactly, he needs to see your pain. If he considers that a painful consequence, it will likely, prevent him from cheating again.

If we just rugsweep it, then........

Read sisoon's response again. It was excellent. No one on this site advocates rug sweeping. Consequences applied externally rarely work. It is the work done internally that makes the difference. You have no bearing on that. Is that what drives you nuts?