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Two different sex partners within a few hours of each other is really unusual behavior for an adult human being.

It is often linked to either mental illness and/or a history of being sexual violated in the past.

I appreciate all the thoughtful responses.

We have a MC session today and then she is following it with an IC with same therapist.

I'm doing ok. I plan to talk today in therapy around the structure of our relationship while we both work on ourselves to determine what we could be moving forward. The old marriage is really gone now but we are still together in a way. I think we just need to talk about that. I go through anger still of course. I do feel conflicted about my desire to stay. I do keep thinking I am being stupid and weak.

Since the being with two guys within a few hours has caused so much reaction I did want to offer more context. It is terrible to me and shows she is very broken but somehow fits within the context of her interactions with these two work colleagues.

She started with one guy last summer after he complimented her looks in the office and they started texting. After a bit of that he called her into his office after 5 and she eventually performed oral sex on him. Describes it as way to guarantee she would get his attention. This happened three times over late summer and fall. There was no relationship besides that, no non sexual texting, nothing.

To her his attention seemed to start waning and she found herself flirting with another guy at work who was flirting with her. After some sexting starting right before Thanksgiving he asked her during work day if she wanted to go for a ride in car. They parked in a remote location and he played with her and she again pulled out the oral sex tool. This happened three times in December.

It would always be the guy reaching out to her for a booty call so to speak and she always responded like Pavlov's dog.

Then he also pulled back a bit to spend time with his family for holidays I guess. 1st guy asks her one day at work of she would like to go to a hotel during lunch to have intercourse and she did. This was in March.

Both these guys travel a lot.

Well anyways there was some sexting after that while they were traveling. In May was the offisite event that she talked with guy #$2 as a way to hook up. When she got there she had sex with him before meetings. Well then towards end of day guy #1 sees she is there and asks her if she wants to meet up and she agrees and has sex.

She tells me she didn't think of either one really while agreeing to have sex with other. She did not pre plan the second encounter. She just felt overwhelmed that two guys wanted her. She does say that on way home that day she felt funny like she had gone too far but buried that. The therapist points out she really had no connection with either. They were just instruments of attention.

In some way on D Day this two guy thing helped me quickly realize this wasn't about me at all. She is broken. Someone brought up the distinction of mental illness to simple therapy. I don't really understand the differences and will ask that of my therapist.

The codependency thing also has me thinking a bit. I will talk to my therapist about those tendencies of mine. Those 4 months that she had moved into a different room actually saw me getting stronger as an individual at times with the help of IC.

I want to find the right balance of finding myself in all of this but also leaving the door open for her to figure her shit out so that maybe we could co-exist as to adults in a grown up relationship.

I know only seeing things from a brief image of our life I have given is difficult to comment at times but I do appreciate anyone taking time out of their day to offer thoughts.

I will really try to focus on me.

[This message edited by Tim3167 at 9:52 AM, June 20th (Tuesday)]

Tim, do you think the 2 guys in one day thing is something you can learn to accept?

In my non-qualified to render judgement opinion, I think mental illness is often a cop out. I only buy into the mental illness "defense" if the person did not know right from wrong. Otherwise, it's just an excuse. If someone knows their behavior is wrong, lies to cover it up, and makes a bunch of excuses for it, I can't really let them off the hook. I think most cheaters simply like the excitement of doing something taboo or wrong. They get off on the secrecy, the newness, the pulling one over on you, the "game" of an affair. It's not that damn complicated. Your wife simply values those things more than a stable home life for her family. She knew things would blow up if you found out. She was okay risking everything. It's not rocket science. You now have multiple data points. I would wager you don't even know how many data points there have been over the last ten years.

If the mental issues compelled her to cheat fits your agenda to R at any cost, great. If you think she can change, awesome. If this is something you can accept, pursue R. You have to do some soul searching.

Well to me looking for an explanation as a path to understanding it is something that could be faced and addressed is worlds apart from looking for an excuse.

Nothing could ever be a valid excuse. Somewhere however there is an explanation for ones behavior.

I'm not quite sure I'm at the R at all costs either but it is something I am trying to understand through IC.

Tim, I'm so sorry you are here again! I feel your pain, I had a 2nd DDay over 7 years after the first. My WS has been diagnosed as SA by his CSAT almost immediately after DDay2. It is a terrible thing to have to live with.

It's been 2 years this fourth of July since my 2nd DDay. My WH has made significant changes in this time. I would only recommend staying again if she is willing to make significant changes for her own healing, and that in turn helps heal the marriage. A person who does something because other people want them to will lose motivation at some point. A person who does something because they want it will work harder to make it happen. Where is she at in that?

Do not lead her in her journey for healing either. She has to take control of this and work this. You can put out boundaries and consequences, but she must lead the path of healing on her own, otherwise she'll just be doing what you tell her to.

You are welcome to read my profile to see my story and how it has gone in the timeline of things. This 2nd DDay has been very different than first for me. I haven't wanted to do any of the work this time, I busted my butt after the first one.

Nothing could ever be a valid excuse. Somewhere however there is an explanation for ones behavior.

This has been an interesting thread for me. Sometimes reading the threads help the reader as much as the poster. Made me think about my situation and others too. The OW in my case was similar to your WW, she had sex with multiple men, all married, usually the men were husband's of her friends, over 40 years of cheating, she is now mid 60's and just had sex multiple times with a younger guy married with 4 kids (his wife caught them, this may end their marriage). And it would not surprise me to hear of two in one day.

Is this person broken and sick? YES! Does she need help? YES! She has been in therapy for many years, but is good at blame shifting so I don't think it has helped. Is my husband guilty of using this sick woman? YES! He didn't know of her issues at the time but that does not excuse his behavior. He knew if I discovered it we would be done. On the other hand, she knew her actions were wrong and that her actions would likely end marriages. So, her brokenness is the explanation, not an excuse.

I think it is a good sign that your wife is not using it as an excuse. Is she remorseful, or can she be at this point?

Can women addicted to attention like this gain the tools necessary to become more mature emotionally?

YES! yes she can change. I have two points of reference for believing this.

Before I met my H, this was me. Very much like your WW, I would get a lot of attention from men when I lost weight. I felt validated. I felt worthy. I was definitely in near constant attention seeking mode. I never saw it. My childhood and FOO issues were pretty extreme and my self esteem was pretty screwed up. Due to CSA I believed my self worth was tied up with being "Sexy". I also believed that was my ONLY worth.

Over the years I've had a few ICs. Each time I grew and changed a bit more. It wasn't a quick process. I just started not liking who I was, and not wanting to be that person. Most recently when FWH cheated on me, I was already in IC again. This time things really seemed to click in my head and I can say that my brain has re-wired itself over the years.

NOW, my FWH - He's been in IC since shortly after Dday. His A was 100% about selfishly wanting the ego strokes that came from AP and other women he was talking to online. Again, his FOO issues affected his reactions, self image, boundaries etc etc.

In IC he also has been working to "re-wire" his brain. That is the term both of our ICs used as well. It has not been easy. It has not been smooth. It's really hard work digging into your self and looking your demons in the face. It's also really hard work to change reactions and responses that have been hard wired into you since childhood. But it's been worth it.

I can tell you that my FWH is not the same man he was 3 years ago. He is more mindful. He practices meditation. Rather than reacting emotionally to a situation, he is slower to respond and does so in a much more thoughtful manner. He has strengthened his boundaries with women, after acknowledging how and why they were so bad.

While we have ended MC after a year of it, he has chosen to remain in IC. He believes he has a long road and wants to continue to better himself.

As a BS I empathize with you. This is traumatic and it hurts and you have a lot to work through. I also completely understand how you can look at someone who has betrayed you in this way and still see the good in them and want to try.

I also empathize with your WW. I really do. Has she mentioned sexual abuse in her past? The description of her behavior - just complying with the sexual acts to continue to receive the validation... not seeing herself as worth more than that... that screams to me that she was probably abused. I hope she can delve into her deepest darkest corners and find out where those messages came from, and then do the work to change herself.

Sending you positive thoughts for peace and strength as you both move forward.

She is very remorseful to the point she is battling hating herself.

She keeps saying that she does not want to be the person that made those choices without any respect for herself or others. Now to see if she can keep this mindset and put in the work.

I appreciate the comment about me not leading her to this work and it has to be of her own desires. I feel it has been but I think it's a good reminder for myself.

This is also why I want to be slow and deliberate before I fully say I'm recommitting. I want to make a new commitment with a mature woman of clear mind, not someone reeling over a trauma and grabbing onto something that is safe.

This is also why I want to be slow and deliberate before I fully say I'm recommitting. I want to make a new commitment with a mature woman of clear mind, not someone reeling over a trauma and grabbing onto something that is safe.

This is so critical in my opinion. I left FWH for a short time (5.5 months) and stayed with an old high school friend. When I chose to leave he was still TT'ing the hell out of me and was so caught up in the guilt and shame he couldn't get out of his own way.

I decided that I needed him to show that he was growing the hell up before I decided to R with him. When it became clear that he was really doing personal work in IC, I took the next step and we started MC, at which time I moved back in. I told him at that time that I would give us, and MC, a year and then I would re-assess my decision to stay. I wasn't going to commit to staying or going until I saw what he was going to do. I wasn't going to stay if he was going to revert to a childish, self centered man.

I'm happy to say that while it was touch and go toward the end of that year, he is "adulting" now, for possibly the first time in his life. I feel comfortable in my decision to stay.

You don't have to commit to staying without knowing what she's going to do, or how deeply she's going to dig. Our MC told us that most people give up before enacting real change in themselves because it's so hard to do. He told my H at the end of our MC that even he could see reach change in him and he was impressed because in his professional experience, it's rare.

Maybe set yourself a loose time frame for when you would hope to experience change in her. By the time our year of MC was up we were 20 months from Dday1.

Does she share with you what she discusses in IC? That was super helpful for me. Being able to understand and discuss his insights with him helped me to see that he was becoming a safer partner for me.

Yes, she has been sharing things she discusses in her IC. I have to be careful not to push her for all the answers right away on things like where was her concience. They are really early on and just now working on not hating herself and her self worth.

An interesting aside is that after never experiencing any religion in her life she has now been going to church and taking about verses that are helping her. I find this interesting. It can't hurt help her establish a bit more of a moral compass I suppose.

You are much different kind of cat than I am so I'll skip the advice part.

This is also why I want to be slow and deliberate before I fully say I'm recommitting. I want to make a new commitment with a mature woman of clear mind, not someone reeling over a trauma and grabbing onto something that is safe.

It really seems to me as though this ship has sailed. Assuming her FOO are major contributors to her behavior, those kinds of issues really never go away. Most people who survive childhood trauma don't change much, it's the gift of a lifetime. The best most folks can get to is to finally understand why they feel & behave the way they do - something that relieves a lot of internal struggle. But modifying a survival behavior learned in childhood is rarely going to happen. Can she learn new boundaries and be able to enforce them? Her history indicates she can't...

This is the reconciliation forum correct? Not looking for sprinkles and sunshine but it feels like some awareness of a goal might be called for.

Tim, I think some of the hurdles from what I can see is that you seem to be really accepting of this. It makes me wonder why?

Ha, no. I'm angry as hell and driving myself crazy over behavior that can't make sense to me.

It's funny this comes across as I'm a very analytical person that even my therapist says possibly a little less energy trying to make it make sense might be in order right now.

I don't think I really ever accepted her behavior 10 years ago either. I think I got to a place where I thought I understood and put it in some context of our overall marriage but never acceptance.

How do you see as a hurdle?

Well I just meant as a hurdle to the advice you're getting about leaving. You've been on this site before so you've probably seen some folks that latch on to r because they're drowning. You didn't come across like that--I guess it just sounded like you jumped right into the acceptance phase based on your post and trying to skip the anger phase is a sure fire disaster.

That aside...

Maybe some logistical countermeasures are in order? Postnuptual agreement, for example?

Fair enough from the context I have provided.

Maybe since I have been on here before and been through this before I am not really asking for help from this community dealing with the anger I have so I don't share this.

I'm still riding the waves of anger and the how could you act like that with no conscience questions to her.

We just had an MC session today and while I am generally very happy with our therapist I left a bit frustrated.

I shared that while I haven't left I still need to wait it out to see that she can be a different person before fully committing to R. It just seemed like he spent too much energy to me then of pointing out the things that she is doing now with transparency, responsibility, and embracing faith to demonstrate that she is doing the work to restore trust.

It's just too fast for me to give it all much credit yet although I do admit that if all these things weren't true I wouldn't even be still trying.

I have to wonder if that is why I show hints of acceptance here that I don't think I feel. My therapists response to my question of how could I ever accept these terrible things was that as I see someone different in front of me, those impressions will carry less weight. I certainly don't feel I'm there yet. If it's interesting to me that is how I'm coming across.

She really is doing everything textbook correct right now which o guess is at least not hurting more.

Also, what is a post nuptual agreement?

[This message edited by Tim3167 at 7:56 PM, June 20th (Tuesday)]

Would be better to Google it or ask a lawyer. Its Like a prenup.

Ok, got it. Duh.

For some silly reason thought it was being used in context of a tactic used here like 180 or something.

Sorry didn't mean to sound short in my last answer was on the way to work.

Do you think a postnup would be helpful?