SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Well.....where to begin....

I think no matter what I say or do or what she says at this point we're done. I am doing soft 180 (hi/bye, short to the point answers to texts, not initiating physical contact).

I came home , ate dinner and literally sat on the floor playing with my kids and the dog for 2 hours. It may have been the best therapy ever and made me finally see that WW has made herself the outsider in this now.

I put the kids to bed and started paying bills (since cheaters apparently don't have time)... Naturally the cell bill is next and being in my position I figured lemmie check.... I was unaware of the fact that if said cheater sends a message through whatsapp (or any other social media) outside of a wifi connection it shows up on your bill. The number itself doesn't, but there is some sort of number code for Verizon when data is used and there were a handful of different numbers. (maybe 3 or 4) I know of 4 contacts in her whatsapp list...wondering if #5 was this OM....

There is clearly no transparency here. I'm going to have to rethink my position unfortunately as far as R goes.

As a late answer to Robert, Beenthere and Fareast....

I literally just told her whatsapp has to go....then said forget it, do what you want with whomever you want. She went to work.

She has 2 fetishes. Neither of them are what I would consider "outside the norm" but she got turned on to them by a guy she dated in her 20's. She said it wasn't something that he forced on her and it wasn't something she even knew existed but he was sort of into it and she took to it.

Fast forward to the next guy she dated who was much older than she was and a stick in the mud she felt that she had to hide this from him as well so she just put it away. She never mentioned it to me in any context other than the occasional sideways joke or comment that I didn't pick up on the subtext.

Once it came out I literally sat her down and we had a long talk about it. Once it was established that she would have to communicate with me about it and explain how things went, I told her that I would certainly give it a go if it was something that would make her happy. A couple of aspects of it aren't my thing but I can get into other parts of it. I'd be more specific if I could, but God forbid she somehow shows up here.

The "network" worries me because holy cow some of these folks are into crazy stuff. I think she went down the rabbit hole looking for someone like minded and wound up with thus turd.

HHADL, There is actually yet another app out there that literally disappears without a trace (as I understand it, even snapchat can be brought back to life with the right technology). Heard about it on CBS a few months ago. Can't remember the name, but there is a lot of concern with teenagers using it.

Thanks for the continued help everyone. I gotta hit the hay or my cpap is gonna yell at me.

I'm sorry. So you're saying that despite what she has said she is still in contact with the POS? I'd be so angry.

You're going to have to go scorched earth I'm afraid to protect your children. Get all of the evidence you can on what kind of loser this is and you're concerns about him to your attorney. I'd go for full custody at this point but definitely I'd try to enforce in some way that your children are never around him ever. Never. Ever.

HHADL, There is actually yet another app out there that literally disappears without a trace (as I understand it, even snapchat can be brought back to life with the right technology). Heard about it on CBS a few months ago. Can't remember the name, but there is a lot of concern with teenagers using it.

Yes, I had heard about this as well. It might not be the same one, but from what I remember, the app itself looks like something stupid, like a calculator, or a game, or something that you would never question being on your kids' or SO's phone. But when you open it it's a complete messaging app, with similar self-deleting messages as the original snapchat.

If you can, I would look at every single app on her phone and actually open it up to see if you find anything. Also, if she is continuing to use Whats App, is she deleting the messages as she is sending them? That is suspicious in and of it itself.

This is one of those instances where you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t. I am going to focus on what you said about possible pedophilia. That’s what worries me. You said he was into some pretty sick fetishes. If they include children somebody needs to tell somebody. I’m sure you don’t want to put yourself in touch with the cops so I don’t know how you go about finding out what is and is not appropriate. You also wrote that your wife had written about some pretty disgusting stuff. That needs to be put out on the table with a third-party because if that is what she’s interested in then that is what she’s interested in. You are going to have to deal with the reality of your life and hers. People do not change. She may try to ignore what she’s interested in but the interest is still there. I am no way I’m telling you how to manage your marriage. I don’t know you. Only you know if you can tolerate what you do know about her. I am circling back to that business about pedophilia. If he’s looking then at some point he’s going to find something or someone and that scares me to death. True pedophiles never, never change. Since you weren’t specific about what you found I don’t know if it was just a minor thing but if there are children involved in his interest that is scary. Why don’t you consult your attorney friend about what you should or should not do.

To be clear, what I found was borderline pedophilia. I don't care what sexual orientation someone is or what they're into really. The stuff I found on this guy however was essentially adults dressed as children and BABIES. Now, that in and of itself could be relatively "harmless" however when I dug a little deeper into this guy's email hookups it took me to a pinterest page with adults having sex dressed as children and babies including anal between men who had soiled themselves. Take that as whatever you wish, but to me that is not something that I would expose my kids to and my wife never got that far to find out about it until I told her.

Beenthere, I don't know if it's him for sure because there are multiple numbers. It could be a friend or it could be another skell. Who knows. Unfortunately Verizon only lets you go back a couple of months on text messages without a lawyer...

I don't know if it's him for sure because there are multiple numbers.

So she said she needed WhatsApp for talking to one friend but you can see that she is talking to five people in the app? Okay so that is very worrisome to me and sounds like to you. You thought she had one OM and that now she was disgusted by him. It sounds instead like she is deep into this fetish with potentially multiple partners.

I would really start to question whether this is actually entirely virtual or whether she has taken this IRL with someone somewhere. There is more than what you know I think. More people. More actions. I would question everything. I think you should look at a polygraph for her. Take some time to come up with some air tight questions but I don't think you know the truth at all.

I would really start to question whether this is actually entirely virtual or whether she has taken this IRL with someone somewhere. There is more than what you know I think. More people. More actions.

Agree with beenthereinco. And the fact that there are multiple WhatsApp convos is of concern, could mean more people. I would think it would be hard to resist meeting up in person if you are that far deep.

Do you think you could possibly install some kind of tracker on her car? Or is there a location sharing thing you could use on her phone?

Mine went down so fast I didn't really have time to do things like that, and I was able to get enough evidence based off of time stamps in our texts and where he said he was vs. where his calls originated from to know that he wasn't where he said he was.

But in your case my concern would be for you in terms of trying to get custody. If you can prove that she is going to places to actually meet these people, especially after you've had these conversations with her regarding the danger to your children, you have a case for sole custody. I would consult a lawyer to determine the legality of a car tracking device.

Also, does she use the same purse every day? Those little "tile" devices that are supposed to help you not lose your keys work very well. They have a tracking app on your phone, and you can literally see exactly where that item is on a map. If you were able to do that, you wouldn't have to worry as even if she did not use her car, let's say she was picked up, or used an uber, you would still be able to see exactly where she was. You could put it in a pocket you know she doesn't use, or probably also open the lining and then sew it back together.

The reason I know is that my husband got one of those at one point a couple of years ago and put it in my purse for a few weeks without me knowing... he had put it in a hidden pocket I didn't know about. He played it off as a joke, that he would text me that he knew where I was etc. and I would think that's crazy how does he know that? He told me about it and laughed, so I thought it was all just a joke. Now I know he was a controlling asshole. But in your case it might provide you with some answers.

I am reading these things and really am just about ready to call it quits. I honestly don't want to be with someone who could be into that kind of stuff that deep, lie about it and then lie about it more when caught.

I'm truly just not interested now. I know that fetishes never go away and if it's more than she is telling me then I'm done. Time to work on myself. Spent the day looking for IC's for myself. I need to get my head straight and move forward.

I briefly messaged with her friend today regarding counseling (a former mutual friend and WW works for a counseling service locally and I didn't want to schedule an appt there unknowingly and run into her). Her friend mentioned that she had spoken to my wife last week and WW had told her that things were going much better....coulda fooled me. Her friend said she has otherwise not mentioned anything and I said I doubt she would because this friend was there when Hiroshima went down so she knows WW is a cheater and she won't get any sympathy...

Wherever your wife goes in her life I sincerely hope she never takes the children around someone like him. You need to get tough. These are your children.

Came home and she's not talking to me. Sitting on the couch with a hoodie over her face. Said a simple hello when I came in and got no response so I guess I'm the bad guy now.

I'm not sure why her discovering that you revealed her fetishes to SI would be a bad thing.Generally, the more info you share the more useful our advice.

I'm sorry you're in this mess and I'm sorry it's worse than you initially thought (which as you know is typical for the BS).

I think you have good reason now to believe that her inappropriate online behavior relating to her fetishes has been going on longer than you initially thought (and with more than 1 person)...And she is still pursuing her fetishes online (with or without the OM).

And yes she's using Whatsapp to cover her tracks.

I'm not an expert on fetishes (although I know some people that really got into theirs) but my understanding is that it escalates over time.

My point is that what started as a mild interest has (based on her refusal to stop) become an addiction.

It sounds like she's minimizing her behavior as a harmless hobby (perhaps to herself as well as to you). But it's not harmless if you object, or it takes time from your marriage or kids, or it crosses boundaries or brings her in contact with strangers off the Internet.

She's not taking your objections seriously and she's choosing her online life over being married to you.

I think it's time to consider a stronger response. For example, at a minimum expose her sexting activity as ongoing, consider serving her at work with D (get the clock ticking), and have yourself tested for STDs.

Making an appt with doc tomorrow. Hopefully will get in there monday to line up testing for std's. I feel sick but inexplicably calm right now. I don't know if it is because I'm getting somewhat comfortable with the idea that it may be over or if it is that I'm looking ahead for myself and the kids.

HTM2:

Has something come up that leads you to believe this went physical?

I think there are a couple of things that you need to bear in mind whether you choose to R or D. They are insight, and shadetree, so take them for what they are worth.

1. Familiarize yourself with toxic shame. Your wife demonstrates it...hiding her fetishes...trying to rugsweep...telling her friend things are better. This is indicative of someone from an abusive upbringing or a history of CSA. Does she?

This is not suggesting you should reconcile. In fact, I would take a hard line on it in that she either keep her toxic shame, or keep you, but not both.

2. In your OP, you mentioned a couple of things that peaked my curiosity, specifically the 'odd financial issue' and 'thinking about life'. Both of these are red flags for wayward thinking/behavior. When did they occur?

Lastly, I hope you realize you shit tested your wife. You said that you have been doing the 180, and when she essentially did one small measure of what you have been doing, you were suddenly ready to fast track the divorce.

Look, brother. I know you are hurting. But if you are effectively ignoring your wife while hoping she is going to somehow find the right way to help you heal, you might as well file. I would bet she is generally submissive. She is looking for your leadership.

If you want no part of it, I understand. Just don't expect her to carry the reconciliation while being a submissive, having toxic shame, and healing herself as well. I would bet that is not in her make up.

Again...take my advice for what it is worth. I hope things work out for you, brother.

Just a reminder that whether you decide to R or D your actions are the same at this point.

I agree with farsidejunky that your wife may be looking to you (or others if you don't) for leadership/direction so make it clear what she needs to do to stay married to you. If she's submissive by nature then her friends will have a huge impact on her choices and interests.

At this point you need to question everything until you know the timeline and the people that encouraged her. She's been into fetishes for some time so all her friends should know about it or participate.

People often lie to cover for friends. For example, the 'friend' that brought her home drunk ... where did they go .... who with ... how often does she go out without you?

And the Whatsapp friend's screen name may be someone else ... call her and confirm she's using Whatsapp.

Swap phones with her for 12 hours and see what texts pop up.

It's discouraging but IC can help her control herself and make her a safe partner.

Got an interesting text from WS today. As I had posted, 2 nights ago I went home and really spent quality time with my kids. Last night did same because WS was in a bit of a no man's land as I wasn't really talking to her outside of hi and bye after not being able to produce a real timeline of events since she deleted everything.

The text basically said it made her kind of sad watching me with the kids because we were having a great time without her. I didn't mean for her to be excluded mind you, it just happened that way.

Sounds to me like WS got a glimpse of how D'd life would be for me when I was with the kids. It also made me a little sad that she was thinking that way because I was really on the fence about dropping D on her.

On another note I narrowed down the local IC's and informed WS that I will be going regardless of what she does so that I can right my own ship. She also took my demand to delete any app with a messenger on it seriously and got rid of the last of em including whatsapp.

I did a bunch of research today about what to look for as far as apps that masquerade as other apps so I will be checking her phone occasionally when I feel the need.

D is still on the table as far as I'm concerned but at least I have IC on the horizon.

NC is critical so deleting Whatsapp is significant. It now sounds like she's now making an effort to choose her marriage vs the internet affair with one or more people sharing her fetish.

You'll somehow have to monitor her. It's work for you but some people need structure in order to avoid self destructive behavior.

I suspect that she finds people that share her fetish by going to specific web sites (vs general social media)...and that makes her vulnerable to crossing boundaries with men. You may be able to track her internet history of sites visited.

In order to discourage her from cruising alone within her fetish, perhaps you can make it a shared interest. There are clubs/conventions you both can attend.

Since this all started with your wife stumbling drunk ... does she have a drinking problem or often go out alone without you? I ask because it puts her at risk for another affair.

Is there any chance that your wife would consider IC?

To my knowledge, there is no evidence of CSA. She grew up in a very stable, happy and healthy home. We have known each other for over 20 years and I have spent quite a bit of time with her family over those years. They are all very good people. She lost her dad at a young age and her mom not long after our first child's second birthday.

To answer a few questions -

I was out with her and her friend when the friend dropped us off. We had to basically carry her to the car. TBH the only real thing that put the idea in my head that there may have been a physical affair were the comments to this post.

She rarely drinks. Usually only when we go out together and we're talking 3 drinks max.

I can guarantee none of her friends knew of this because she only started talking to one of our close friends about it recently. This particular friend and her husband are fairly open about what they are into and have been extremely helpful to me in understanding it .

I do understand that my posts (and mood) have been all over the place but I am unfortunately the type of person who wears my heart on my sleeve. I did not jump to the D conclusion after she complied, I was looking toward D after she didn't come up with a timeline.

She finally did comply today of her own accord and deleted all messenger apps.it's a start.

As for her own IC , she initially felt she should do IC to get rid of her fetishes. I disagree with this as I would rather she focus on why she went outside our marriage and what is causing her to put her trust in strangers rather than her husband, friends or family.

As for financial and meaning of life stuff....

We had 2 major financial setbacks this year. Both regarding her car to the tune of over $10k (the second one caused us to have to buy a car). We are still recovering from that financially.

I think in the past year, we both had what I would call mid life crisis. Mine lasted a week or so and hers I believe is ongoing.

She is very young at heart even though we are both in our 40's. She went out and got her nose pierced after our 20 something nieces did theirs. She got hit on by a couple of younger guys when we were out one night and we both kind of joked that we're the old people at the club now....

Mine was literally a 3 day interaction with a celebrity who, when she was leaving was rather touchy feely toward me unexpectedly. I was flattered but nothing happened and she left. It sort of looped me for a couple of days that a MUCH younger woman would show any kind of interest in me but I am happy with my wife and family and just took it as flattery and moved on.

HTM2, how are you holding up, brother?

FSJ, thanks for asking.

The weekend was pretty uneventful. I did check her car from top to bottom for a drop phone as well as look in various places around the house. It would appear that she is on the up and up thus far. She actually left her phone sitting on the table in front of me and fell asleep. Took the opportunity to have a quick look and found nothing even remotely questionable. I even took screen shots of all of her apps to see if anything raised a red flag later on as something that would hide another app. Nothing.

First weekend since d-day with no arguing and no real breakdown for me. I start IC 2nd week of January. WW if doing some rugsweep though and not really talking about IC even though I made mention of myself going a couple of times yesterday. Going to talk to a lawyer today about post-nup to protect myself but at this point at least I can see a bit of upswing.

The one thing that still bothers me a bit is that she has not asked at all how I'm feeling. I know she feels awful and has shown what I am believing is genuine remorse. I've seen it on her face when we're alone but I also still have my guard up.

All in all, not an awful couple of days. I've really been trying to focus on spending time with the kids (whether they like it or not :P ) as it really has been the best therapy for me.

Good luck, Happenedtome2

The one thing that still bothers me a bit is that she has not asked at all how I'm feeling. I know she feels awful and has shown what I am believing is genuine remorse. I've seen it on her face when we're alone but I also still have my guard up.

My guess is that she feels guilty and knows that asking how you're feeling might get her an answer that could cause another fight or argument. Stay the course and, when you're ready, schedule MC. Bring it up there - 'why don't you ever ask how I'm doing? You're the one that put everything at risk, and I'm the one that had to put it back together. Recovery takes 2, and they have to both care about how the other one is doing!'