SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You see this a lot. It's not gender related either.

Everyone has a choice. Most just talk do nothing to change it and expect different results.

Abandoned guy- I don’t think that is a Bad philosophy so long as you are assessing whether you are also making the other persons needs a priority. That is not an accusation - it’s just a general statement.

Havequestions- I don’t know that I agree with you that it’s easier for a woman to have sex than a man to emotionally connect with us. Spending quality time, asking about our

day, helping us with things, giving affection out of a loving gesture rather than to initiate sex...none of these things are hard. When we as women have sex, we are letting you into our body. We are being very vulnerable in a way that I don’t believe a man is. I don’t think either one is harder. It’s just from a different perspective.

That’s not to say that a man who does these things will get a woman who will accommodate and care about their husbands needs...and a woman who takes care of her husbands sexual needs is not guaranteed to get their needs met either.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:47 PM, April 17th (Wednesday)]

hikingout,

I totally agree. The ones I assess as being "bad" friends are those I go out of my way to keep in touch with and ask about their lives and make time to see and listen to and lend support to if need be, and they still act flaky. I try to give them the benefit of the doubt (try) but I have a threshold. And obviously I can see that applying to marriage, too.

The obligation sex that I was getting was worse than no sex.

I have to ask why anyone would accept this. I don't mean divorce asap; I mean, why not say, "We need MC or IC because I don't want to live this way"?

This isn't directed at any certain poster, just a general question.

When things were very bad with my H, lots of porn and virtual stuff, he would want sex after meeting none of my needs--zero. He would avoid all hard topics but still make a move later on. On one or two occasions after obligation sex I literally screamed, "Don't you wonder WHY I'm not into it?! Don't you think we should address this?!" But he walked away.

I don't think it is ok to have important needs go unmet, sexual or otherwise. So then why allow it? Why not object when that important boundary is crossed?

I guess I want to know why people remain in marriages with such big complaints rather than forcing the situation to be addressed. Professionally. I know why I stayed and allowed my needs to be ignored--codependency and poor boundaries. I chose to stay married rather than threaten the status quo by insisting our issues be addressed. So then, I only have myself to blame for the shitty sex.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I believe

Not standing up for yourself = getting a shitty sex life

My experiences tell me this is true.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 9:59 PM, April 17th (Wednesday)]

Not standing up for yourself = getting a shitty sex life

K, I really like this without knowing exactly what it means, or what it looks like. You've already mentioned pursuing professional help as part of the answer. Is that it?

From a woman's perspective, given a man getting the post menopausal low libido refrain, what does "a man standing up for himself = getting good sex" look like to you.

Quick sidebar, my wife recently came into my work area with a "come hither" smile asking if I'd get something she'd been wanting done around the house finished. She went on to say in her very sexy way (something I've rarely seen since early in our marriage) that she'd make it worth my while. My flash reaction was, "uh huh, when you want something, suddenly your libido is a non-issue." I gently told her that I'd get it done regardless and, no, although I'd have jumped all over it pre-Dday, I'm not interested in transactional sex now. She said OK and left somewhat downcast. I did the thing she wanted and said no more about it.

A few things: interesting that the low libido thing was something she could get past when there was something to be gained by her. Interesting that her low libido thing was a non-issue with the "fun, carefree, easy to talk to" guy from her high school past. And, lastly, I'd be good with obligation sex if it was apparent that she was "into it" because she loves and wants to please her husband.

End result; I've gone monk mode. Oh, and this is priceless, while/because we've been interacting in friendly fashion and talking freely, she says "I just want you to know how bad I feel that I'm at this stage of life during the time when you still feel so much need." I smiled graciously (you know, to keep it light and non-toxic).

I'll take "disingenuous" for a 1000.

(oh my, did I just rant? I think I did. Apologies.)

[This message edited by NotTheManIwas at 6:20 AM, April 18th (Thursday)]

LostHope8008 wrote:It’s not only the flat out rejections, it’s the subtle ones too. Like her idea of good sex is bending over and giving me about three solid minutes to get it done. No emotion, no connection, nothing. Pulls up her pants and she’s good for another week. Terrific.

Dude... are you also married to my wife?? The past few years that has been the NORM for our sex life. My wife doesn't want foreplay, connection, intimacy, anything. She jerks me off just enough to get me hard if I'm not already, lubes me up and away we go. If I don't finish within a few minutes, I can tell she starts to get impatient. I have pretty good control over my "orgasm reflex", but I can tell she gets impatient, so I usually just go for it. She never orgasms. She doesn't care to orgasm. She claims to never masturbate, and I believe her.

Any attempts I try to make to even talk about this are met with extreme pushback from her. She says that we've just found what works for us, and that is her favorite way to have sex. She claims to enjoy it, seems to enjoy it even if she doesn't orgasm, and is usually is happy to do this ritual 2-3 times a week. She occasionally goes down on me if I request, and me going down on her is absolutely not going to happen. I haven't done that in at least 8 years, before our kids were born. I don't really think of it as duty sex anymore. She says she likes it, and that she is fulfilling my needs because she loves me.

While I would prefer a more "normal" sex life with somebody who actually wants to have sex with me, I have accepted that this is my life. The only way I'm ever going to have decent sex again is with somebody else, be that if I cheat, or if we separate. Neither of those scenarios is really an option for me at this point. We have another "pounding session" scheduled for tonight... male orgasm guaranteed!

[This message edited by Fenderguy at 8:35 AM, April 18th (Thursday)]

Dude... are you also married to my wife??

Fenderguy, it could be you having sex with my wife. She never turns around, so honestly, she wouldn’t even know the difference

To what OIN states, I’m not putting up with it. I’ve laid it out and I’m giving it some time to change (per the advice of my IC). I refused to accept that this is my new normal. Yes, I would absolutely D over a very poor sex life. Affairs aside, because they no longer seem to be the issues for either one of us, this is totally within her power to change. Failing to do so is a reflection that I am not worth the effort. That is unacceptable and is completely independent of who cheated on whom first.

HO, I get what you are saying. I am floored when I hear a woman doesn't want oral sex. It makes me sad for her for what she's missing. Maybe it's a vulnerability thing, like she's afraid to completely let go.

In a M, there must've been an emotional connection at some point. Otherwise, why would you get married? I agree that both partners need to work at being connected.

I'll only speak for myself here, but I think this probably applies to many women. It's really not easy for me to just have sex without an emotional connection. I am not comfortable with just fucking, fake it til you make it in terms of emotional connection. I feel gross and dirty and depressed after sex like that. A man doesn't have to do much to foster that. Just talk a little, give kisses for no apparent reason, hugs, hand holding, etc. I'm not talking about having deep, meaningful discussions about feelings. I'm talking about simple acts that make me feel loved.

Men know how to do that, ime. A lot of men I know are really good at pretending that they care just to get women to have sex with them. So, they know what's needed. Why they choose not to do those things with their wives confounds me.

One thing that can really help is learning each other's love languages. Even if your partner doesn't express your LL, you can learn to recognize and appreciate when he is expressing his to you. For example, i'm a QT and PT person. My H is AOS and gifts. Instead of being hurt that he isn't sitting on the couch with me, I try to appreciate that he is cleaning the kitchen yet again or got me a cheesy card. I can see myself being loved in those ways.

I am out of town with our boys on spring break. My H couldn't come because he has to work. The night before I left, he filled my gas tank. That was him showing me love, fostering that emotional connection. We had sex before I left.

[This message edited by cocoplus5nuts at 9:42 AM, April 18th (Thursday)]

Lets throw a different dynamic into the mix.

I my case, I've dealt with fWW's low sex driver for the entirety of our 20 year marriage. From the beginning, it's been once a month if I'm lucky. Missionary only, not extras. In the early days, there was more, but that was during her college partying phase. In fact, I was getting someone concern that the only time we seemed to have sex was when she came home drunk from a party.

We've talked about it til I'm blue in the face. She doesn't see there's a problem. She's claims to be satisfied because she has her family and her emotional needs are met. Mine aren't and she knows it. She's not interested in counselling and will not go. Every few years, things boil back to the surface and we go round about this argument again. She says she understands and wants to change be never does or even puts in any effort too.

We have 2 daughters and I'm not going anywhere until they finish college. My plan was to wait it out until then and try one last time to get her to go to counselling or I'm gone. I love her but I never signed up for a crappy, non-existant sex life, especially after her two EAs.

About 5 years ago, she was diagnosed with ulcerative colitis. The way she describes it, it's like feeling nauseous and having the runs 24/7. It's now her, very legitimate excuse for her lack of interest in sex. We still manage it once a month, though.

I'm still going to wait for the girls to get settled, but if I leave now, I'll be the guy who left his wife due to lack of sex caused by her medical condition. The previous 15 years will get lost in translation.

Any advise?

NotTheManIwas wrote: >>>>how 'bout them apples...<<<<

Them apples I like. Them apples make sense to me.

Will we ever get past tired and worn out ideas like "women give sex to get love but men give love to get sex"?

For the record, there is more than one man on God's green earth who insists on "an emotional connection" before he will have sex with a woman. They're not as rare as you might think.

Twitchy wrote >>>> if I leave now, I'll be the guy who left his wife due to lack of sex caused by her medical condition. The previous 15 years will get lost in translation. Any advise? <<<<

Sure. Other people's problems are easy.

"Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts, and recycling it for more than it's worth."

Here's some advice I read in an advice column a few months ago. A wife wrote in to complain that her husband refused sex except on very rare occasions and that the problem had become so big that she was considering divorce. The therapist advised the wife to tell her husband that the problem was so big that she was considering divorce and that she needed him to discuss it with her. The therapist advised the wife to be vigilant. If her husband agreed to discuss the problem with her but "not right now" then the wife should watch to see if her husband was deploying a dodge. If the discussion was repeatedly put off to a later time then the wife needed to know that. Alternatively, if the husband agreed to discuss the issue and agreed to some kind of solution but the solution never seemed to materialize then her husband was deploying a different kind of dodge. The therapist advised that if her husband continued to throw up roadblocks that somehow prevented the problem from being addressed or resolved then the marriage had a bigger problem than a lack of sex. If the wife later decided to divorce, it wouldn't be simply because she wasn't getting as much sex as she wanted.

Twitchy, you say your wife has always been like this. Did you think she would change after you married her?

hikingout.

I amno longer with abusive NPD WH...we are divorcing...he left me for OW 11.5 months ago...

it was a blessing..

I chose to stay for my last child to graduate...and then WH Became very ill...It was his brain...I no longer knew what to do...or should do...My plan to D after graduation, was postponed...

WH continued to cheat...obsessively...he left me for OW...and now my path is back on track...he chose that for me...and its what I needed...I was very wrapped up in not only fixing him, but healing him...and neither was my job...I am thankful, after all the shock and pain...that he did this ….

I gave him the chance to R...it was the hardest thing to do...and he did zero....only more destruction...it was these trying years, that sex became so terrible.

Amazingly, in the early years of our marriage, he was the best lover I had ever known...he was fantastic...this is how much he changed, our marriage changed...and how much I had to change..

I had to process it...was this because of alcoholism? was this his brain? how long had this change been coming on? what is real? is he the perfect lover for them? all the whys....I will never really know. I just know its too much for me to live with. the drs haven't been able to diagnose or explain...

[This message edited by cancuncrushed at 12:16 PM, April 18th (Thursday)]

She wasn't like this when we were dating, though we were both inexperience. When your young, you'r just glad to have a partner. This started shortly after the wedding and got worse after the kids were born.

cancuncrushed,

I am sorry, I haven't followed your story that closely. It occurred to me after I posted that you might be divorced. I would never say a divorce is what someone should or shouldn't do. I just think it would be hard for me to continue in the situation that you are in. It sounds like things might be moving in a better direction for you and for that I am glad.

And Twitchy - and others like twitchy.. While I will state up front, I am very much in agreement with cocoplus5 nuts that I do need a loving connection with my partner....I do believe that sexual needs are just as important as emotional ones and are just as valid reason for separation/divorce as most others I have heard of. And, honestly, I don't even think what you or the others refer to are even plain out sexual needs - but overall physical intimacy. I am a woman, but I need that as well. Not just for release but to feel desired and loved, touch is a very powerful connector between people. I myself divorced my first husband because I needed that and could not get him to see the importance. It felt like he just kept choosing not to meet my need which translated to me that he didn't love me. As a woman we believe that men have high drives yet I couldn't inspire one in my husband.

I think there are people who are sexual, there are people who are willing to learn and work on being sexual, and there are others who just believe it's not that important and that you just want sex/orgasm. I wrote the other day that I don't know where this comes from exactly, it's not my experience. But, I think some of it comes from FOO.

Twitchy - I definitely agree with the others, she needs to fully understand this as a dealbreaker. And as far as her physical ailment - I mean I don't know many couples who go around disclosing all the reasons they got a divorce. She knows this has always been an issue, you know it, and if it can't be worked out then it can't be worked out. This is your journey and you have to decide what is right for you. For some simple companionship and having family together and other reasons outweigh the sex issue. But, for others they would rather have someone more compatible with them. You are the only one who can decide that picture.

Did she cheat on you? I am not familiar with your story.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:33 PM, April 18th (Thursday)]

Aside from my own situation, it truly amazes me the amount of threads on SI where people are “supposedly” in R, working towards R, don’t want to separate or D, but have very little sex life. People openly admitting they have gone months or even years without (withholding) sex. I know there is a lot of hurt with infidelity, but knowing how important a priority sex is for some people don’t think for a second you are reconciling anything while leaving the sex part for some “future” discussion. It won’t work long term and will build added resentment. All fine if you truly don’t want to rebuild. Rebuilding takes two, hard discussions about both A and non A issues and true, meaningful changes in behavior.

I saw this post, asked my WS if he was happy with the frequency that we have sex, and he said "Ehhh, yeah I guess, but we could have it more." I pretty much only turn down sex for three reasons -- 1. I have my period and penetration causes cramps (down for mutual oral though), 2. it's after midnight (I'm tired and have to be up in six hours), or 3. our 2yo is awake (like on a weekend morning. Can't leave her alone for a second without it looking like a tornado hit the room or her trying to climb something).

It really varies but we try to have sex every few days, so at least 2-3 times a week, and if we have the opportunity to have sex (usually on a weekend) more than once in a day (like once during toddler's naptime, and then again at night) we do.

But... in my/our case, the biggest thing that holds us back is my WS falls asleep on the couch most nights while I'm doing bath/bedtime with the kids. He says he can't do bedtime with them because he'll fall asleep, but it's a moot point because while I'm doing it, he falls asleep anyways.

He's suggested that I wake him up with oral or just riding him, but I've explained that it's a turn off and feels kind of rape-y, even though he's assured me that I have his consent.

So... I guess our case is weird because we would both be happy to have more sex, but he's the one that falls asleep and prevents it from happening? Which I don't blame him for, because we have two little kids and he works long hours, so we're both pretty exhausted at the end of the day.

ibonnie, saw your post and just had to jump all over it. Firstly, let me just say that I mean no disrespect when I say what I'm about to say.

What you wrote had me actually laughing out loud. By most male accounts, your H is doing pretty damn well if he's getting it 2 - 3 times a week. And that his wife has the presence and concern to ask if he'd be happier with more is pretty damn adorable.

My reaction to his "Ehhh, yeah I guess, but we could have it more." response was "duh, and hell yeah." (effing perfect)

As for your concerns of...

He's suggested that I wake him up with oral or just riding him, but I've explained that it's a turn off and feels kind of rape-y

...please don't feel that way. I'm betting I speak for most men here when I say that a woman taking advantage of her man and feeling "rape-y" is a laughable concern.

Or maybe I'm just wanting to live vicariously through your marriage.

Kudos to you, girl.

Get a room. Sheesh.

if I leave now, I'll be the guy who left his wife due to lack of sex caused by her medical condition. The previous 15 years will get lost in translation. Any advise?

Bro, My reco: don't lose the previous 15 years in translation. If sexual incompatibility is the reason for D, so be it. You don't have to satisfy anyone but yourself with your reason for D, as long as the legal system supports you. Why is that not enough for you?

*****

Several years ago, I came across a book by a woman with a low sex drive who was M to a man with a high sex drive; it was about the compromises they made and how they reached them.

I have looked for the book since then but haven't been able to find it. If you're in an M with mismatched sex drives and you have the guts, I recommend asking a librarian (maybe at an academic library) or psychiatrist for help finding it. If you do it by phone, you may not even have to identify yourself.

*****

If you've got this problem and your partner won't work with you to solve it, maybe the reason for D is that she won't work with you to solve problems....

Or you can accept the sitch as it is and enjoy what you ARE getting from the relationship.

Continuing to complain - even if only to yourself - sounds excruciating. Why do that to yourself?