SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I hear you. . .but what's the downside to having a conversation first?

Because I don't believe your wife is really listening. I'm not sure she even cares. But, there is a way for you to find that out. Believe me, you don't want her to stay with you just to keep her family intact. You will be miserable and it will not turn out well.

Sigh - I just want to hug you.

Argh!! Why would you want to be married to someone who is waffling about being with you! I'm in a bad place tonight but damn it, her first thought should have been oh shit how do I keep my husband. And your first thought should have been to heck with that she chose someone else over me and our kids.

I hear you. . .but what's the downside to having a conversation first?

You've been having a lot of conversations, conversations in MC, conversations with her . . . where has it gotten you?

And let's say you do it your way--you have a conversation and she agrees to stay in the marriage, but then you spring on her the things you need and she will have none of it.

You need to show her real consequences. Tough love. She's not getting it any other way. Get and read a copy of James Dobson's "Love Must be Tough." Excellent book for someone who is being taken advantage of by a wayward.

You can't nice her back or reason her back into this marriage. She has to want it badly enough to endure some significant personal discomfort.

She's not there now. She may not be there ever. And let me tell you from personal experience that if they don't get there, you probably don't want them. If they don't work on their issues and determine why they chose an affair and fix what's broken inside of them, it is highly likely you will have another marital crisis. Maybe it won't be an affair, or maybe it will be a handful more affairs. But if she doesn't fix herself, you can't fix the relationship. Period. And if she's not owning the behavior, the deck is stacked against you right now.

You're convincing yourself that you were responsible for the condition of the marriage, global warming and world hunger all in one package. And yeah, you probably have some things to own in the marriage, but she has to own part of that "marital climate" also. She had numerous choices in how she dealt with it, as did you. She has to own 100% of the affair and 50% of the marital climate. So that is a minimum of 75% of the fixing that starts with her, assuming that the affair and the marital climate are equally weighted (which they may or may not be, depending on your situation).

Put it out there: if she chooses the marriage, she also chooses the work that it takes. No shirking, no excuses. The work starts with complete and verified NC with the OM. At this point, he does not need to be involved in any way, shape or form. He is legally a NON-ENTITY and remains a non-entity until he files a paternity action. She must be 100% on board with this--no filling him in on the pregnancy OR on the paternity test you are planning. There must be a huge consequence for this--I would say divorce papers and you file for 100% possession of the marital home and custody.

She needs to get into IC and start working on why she chose this course of action. At this point, MC may or may not be helpful. If it is, MC is also a must.

She needs to shed all "tools of the affair," which would mean any social media accounts, personal emails, change her cell phone number, etc. She has to be 100% open to you being able to see her cell phone, email, etc. A GPS on her car would also be a good idea. She needs to understand that earning back your trust starts in any number of very small ways, from producing the receipt that said she was at the East Side WalMart at 10:20 on a Saturday to you viewing her phone.

This isn't easy stuff, SAF. There is a reason why most marriages that are impacted by infidelity fail (it's about 2/3 or slightly greater). The deep dive into figuring out why the WS had the affair and fixing what is broken first inside them and then in the marriage is TOUGH.

That's why you have to be tough. It's okay to demand that this be fixed right. If it were a house exploded by a bomb or ravaged by a hurricane, would you want something substandard just nailed up? Would you want a few 2x4s and a tarp to call home? Or would you want to raze the site properly, carry off what couldn't be salvaged, salvage what you could and start building properly with a good foundation? If your home was damaged by water, you wouldn't just spackle over the damage, right? That would invite mold and rot. Same with a marriage.

If this is to be repaired, it must be repaired right. NO 2x4s and a tarp. No spackle. Tear it down, salvage what you can and build it back up right.

Own your shit, but right now, don't own it to her. You need her to step up, not use your assumption of issues as her crutch to not work hard.

Now do you see why a conversation isn't going to cut it? You need action. Concrete, verifiable and purposeful action. No more discussions. She's not listening.

Cat

I've been also meaning to ask you - is she still working at the same place as the OM? If the answer is yes, wouldn't it be a good idea to have her quit?

omg, this is tough.

Isn't the paramount thing to determine asap the paternity of the child? What if it is your child?

We will do the non-invasive test as soon as it can be done reliably. And I'm requiring a copy of the results to be mailed to me at my office. 2-3 weeks, probably. If it's my kid (doubtful) then lots of things change. For starters, it's much easier to punch the OM in the face next time he says something stupid. Not that I'd resort to violence...

You don't have continual and repetitive *conversations* with an unremorseful WS because all you get is word salad.....or this:

So I’m waiting for WW and WW is waiting for nothing. That means I’m waiting for nothing. I don’t want to wait for nothing.

Continued repetitive conversations = MINDFUCK LIMBO for you. Channel Dr. Phil and start "putting some verbs in your sentences" because your WW is gonna keep jerking your strings for as long as you allow her to. And have NO doubt that you ARE allowing her to do this. She does NOT *think* like you do -- you are projecting your *world-view* onto her.....that if you *explain* the error of her ways to her, that she will *follow* your logic/reason and go "oh, wow, I understand what you are saying and, you're right." It isn't going to happen. I spent 3 years trying to *white-board* that a marriage consists of ONLY 2 people to my stbx....and he never fucking *got it*. He would *tell* me (in our endless conversations) that he knew that.....and yet, he continued to *carry on* with his latest bedwarmer.

You are behaving as if you and your WW are *partners*. Newsflash...you aren't. She has proven herself to be a traitor and you need to act accordingly. She is not necessarily the *enemy*, but she is, sure as shit, NOT an ally.

Switching gears to the baby......and brace yourself for a 2x4 smack. I was one of the only ones who told you in the beginning that OM has no *say* in this. I don't care if you are 100% sure that OM is the father of that kid....for right now, you Shut.Your.Fucking.Mouth about it. Your presumption is that the child is yours. Period. Do not EVER acknowledge that child as OM's. EVER. Do NOT meet with this guy and discuss *arrangements*. Do not say it and, for the love of all that is holy, do NOT EVER memorialize it by putting your suspicion in writing (email/text). The OM and your WW waxing nostalgic about *their* baby can be chalked up to the insane ramblings of crazy-people.......and you, as the legally presumed father, do NOT want to legitimize this crap. As Cat said, your L would probably want to beat you upside the head if s/he knew about it.

So for now, *forget* about the baby issue because it really is a *backburner* issue for now. The inferno that is in your face at the moment is whether or not your WW is going to jump back into the marriage at 110% or not. Your WW should not be allowed (by you) to remain married to you because you are a more *stable* option......what a fucking insult to you. Maybe you are feeling a bit of *pride* over that....and if you are, it just means that she is pushing the right button for you.

There's a saying -- it is better to come from a broken home than to live in one. And if you continue to allow all of the leeway to your WW that you are currently giving her....your kids are most definitely going to grow up in a broken home.

When I was in high school most of the student body walked out of class one day to congregate on the front lawn. They were protesting a school policy that prohibited students from wearing shorts. After about an hour the principal went outside to meet with the organizers. He said, "Come inside and let's talk." The student ringleader said, "No more talk, we want action!" The principal shrugged and went inside. An hour later, the organizers sheepishly went to the principal's office. "Can we talk?" they asked.

Actions speak louder than words, you all are saying. Apparently that means I cannot tell her what my needs are and if they aren't met then we are getting divorced. And then if I file for divorce and she calls me and says, "We need to talk" do I tell her "No more talk, I want action!"? If she comes back to me and says she's sorry and wants to work it out, do I silently point to a chalkboard whereupon the words "No more talk, I want action!" are inscribed? At what point is oral communication once again permitted? If she shows up at my door sobbing and asks me, "What do you need?" do I tell her, "I need you to STFU and never say another word to me again because no more talk, I want action! That will fix everything!"?

If this conversation ruins my life and destroys my children then you can have the last word. But I might just say, "Enough talk, I want action!"

OK fine. Keep talking. Come back in 6 weeks and let us all know how the continual conversations are *working* for you and give us a progress update.

If she comes back to me and says she's sorry and wants to work it out, do I silently point to a chalkboard whereupon the words "No more talk, I want action!" are inscribed?

Yes, SAF, you do.

(And I am now dubbing you 'Mr. Snarky.')

I'm not sure where this idea of endless conversations is coming from. The whole idea is that this is the last conversation unless there is action. That's what "If she still can’t decide or, obviously, if she chooses him then I have to file" means.

(And I am now dubbing you 'Mr. Snarky.')

At least stick with SAF. Snarky As F*ck.

Wow, that was snarky of me.

SAF, again, my deepest condolences for your situation.

I'm sure it might seem like we are a group of bitter, cultish people who are all eerily telling you the same thing. We really do want what's best for you, and the reason we seem to all be saying the same thing is because many of us have seen the same movie over and over, and the ending never changes. In fact, the majority of us have probably had to live through the same movie, just some alterations in the plots. Especially when we were as new to this are you currently are, we probably all once believed, or at least wanted to believe, that we were the exception to the rule too. We weren't.

Despite what it may seem, I think most people on SI are advocates for R, just not R with an unremorseful WS. Some of the posters here have been quite harsh with you, but I truly do think that the tone on your thread would change if your wife started to show some signs of true remorse, but based on what you have told us, she has none.

Right now, you seem to be the only one putting forth any effort at communication and saving the marriage. Your valiant efforts at such are completely futile while your wife cannot and does not show you true remorse and act accordingly. Hence, the talk about conversation versus action. Your continued efforts will only increase your pain, which is what the members here are trying to spare you from, and prolong any possible healing.

You continue to revisit this thread seeking advice, which is definitely encouraged because as strange as it may seem, people here do care about helping others. However, are you trying to convince us or yourself about what's really going on in your relationship? I can't imagine all the 2x4s you are receiving are pleasant. Do you think that maybe there is truth and validity in the recurring advice people are giving you? You don't have to answer to us, but maybe it might be something for you to consider.

There is no one disputing that you are a good guy and deserve better than the shit sandwich you're eating right now. Hopefully you are taking care of yourself physically at least. We hope you can find some peace soon.

Slight t/j. I, too, tried to reason, love, nice, etc. my ex back for almost a year with countless "last conversations." It took me that much longer to heal and only increased the pain before I finally came across the straw that broke the camel's back.

If she comes back to me and says she's sorry and wants to work it out, do I silently point to a chalkboard whereupon the words "No more talk, I want action!"

^^^Yes! Yes! Yes!

Listen to catwoman and gonnabe...excellent advice.

"If she still can’t decide or, obviously, if she chooses him then I have to file" means.

This really boils down to the fact that you are allowing her the power to choose.

Talking with her about what she already isn't doing, hoping to get her to choose to do what she already isn't doing, is exhausting and hasn't worked.

That advice given to you, allows YOU the opportunity to choose for a change.

She is more likely to fall in line, if you take control and begin to make all of the decisions. Otherwise you end up with more of what you already have....her choosing to do what she's been doing, which is nothing, because she can and because she likes it that way.

The counterintuitive advice given to you, is more likely to result in her coming round to your way of thinking.

Your current actions are helping to cradle her comfortably in the fog. In this current world, she can still have it all, because you have been making it way too comfortable. If you don't allow her to hurt, and feel the full weight of the consequences she created, she's going to stay on her current path.

You can not reason with her, while her head is in the clouds.

Now that we know you have some serious snarkability.

It is time to channel the anger behind that ability into a direction that may help snap your WW out the fog.

Please go back and reread what Gonnabe and Catwoman have written.

[This message edited by refuz2bavictim at 3:47 AM, February 19th (Wednesday)]

You are threatening that the only way she can have her children is by staying with you.

She obviously doesn't want to be with you so how happy do you think you are going to be that you forced this option on her?

You are setting your children up to live in a very unhealthy environment, and its like you can't see past getting your WW to do what you want to see what is truly best for your kids.

Apparently that means I cannot tell her what my needs are and if they aren't met then we are getting divorced.

Haven't you told her already? And if you have, why do you think telling her again is going to make a difference?

And then if I file for divorce and she calls me and says, "We need to talk" do I tell her "No more talk, I want action!"?

Yep. In her world, talking is stalling. If she was willing to take action to start to heal your marriage, wouldn't she have done so by now?

I'm not sure where this idea of endless conversations is coming from. The whole idea is that this is the last conversation unless there is action.

So all of the other conversations about the situation have been meaningless? I'm not trying to be snarky--but I am trying to help you see that hinging all of this on one last conversation isn't a good course of action. You've already talked this to death. She hasn't taken any action. Time to change up your actions at this point.

When we change, people around us cannot NOT change.

As others have pointed out, you've made it awfully comfortable for her in limbo-land. Another "conversation" just elongates her stay there. You've talked to her before about what you need and the result is the same. Isn't it time to change up the plan?

Cat

Actions speak louder than words, you all are saying. Apparently that means I cannot tell her what my needs are and if they aren't met then we are getting divorced. And then if I file for divorce and she calls me and says, "We need to talk" do I tell her "No more talk, I want action!"? If she comes back to me and says she's sorry and wants to work it out, do I silently point to a chalkboard whereupon the words "No more talk, I want action!" are inscribed? At what point is oral communication once again permitted? If she shows up at my door sobbing and asks me, "What do you need?" do I tell her, "I need you to STFU and never say another word to me again because no more talk, I want action! That will fix everything!"?

Like the others have said----YES, YES,YES.

Why do you think that you HAVEN'T communicated your needs clearly to her? Why do you think that she needs to here it ONE MORE TIME to finally have it sink in?

And the million dollar question---are you ready to pull the plug after this ultimate request....and she continues to balk?

I'm afraid....I am almost certain....that you will NOT walk away---because you have not been preparing yourself to do so. It is this tunnel vision of yours(I get it...we have it too) that will leave you in despair longer.

Odds are that this marriage will not work, and I think you believe that. That doesn't mean "can't win, so don't try", but it means that more chances than not, you will eventually be divorced. Learn to accept that as a possibility. Don't ignore it. Because if you do, and you do find yourself down that path, it will have taken you way, way longer to get there than it should have. And in that extra time of living hell, you and your children will have been exposed to a toxic environment for much longer than needed. And that extra time causes immeasurable damage.

What has happened already can't be changed. But you can have a clear impact on what happens from this point. Start taking actions. Or, if you are serious about this ultimatum---DO IT NOW.

I wish you could step back from this. You don't know for a fact that she confessed before she knew she was pregnant. I would bet she took a test before the one you seen her take and had already told the OM. So then she confesses and oops I maybe pregnant I need to take a test and takes one in front of you.

I have no clue why you are assuming someone who has lied and cheated on you is now being honest and looking out for her kids. She wants what she wants and I think one way or another is going to get it and you will be screwed. You are trying to control a situation you have no control over.

If she shows up at my door sobbing and asks me, "What do you need?" do I tell her, "I need you to STFU and never say another word to me again because no more talk, I want action! That will fix everything!"?

If she shows up at your door sobbing and asks what do you need she still doesn't get it. I am almost positive you have told her multiple times what you need. A truly remorseful spouse doesn't need to be told repeatedly, they fucking get it. The ones that waffle, give excuses, and always have a "but" in the conversation are unremorseful. You are better off filing for D and leaving NOW when they are unremoresful. It saves you and your kids a shitload of pain and misery. I know because I was one of the ones that did it my way and suffered for 2 years with an unremorseful WS through false R and all the associated bullshit. You know what remorse looks like? You already gave her your conditions and needs so walk away file for D and see what happens. If she does come up to your door one day the actions of a remorseful WS will look similar to the following:

SAF, I am sorry for fucking up my life, your life, and our family. I have been going to IC for several weeks, I sent OM the NC letter, I quit my job so I NEVER have to see him again, I will never see him again, if the child is his we can set up visitation through an intermediary, here is the password to my phone, I installed a gps on my car and my phone, here are all the passwords to every single email and social media account I have, etc. Those are the types actions you would expect to see if she comes back. She would have done them herself without you prodding her. She would continue to do them even after you told her she didn't have to anymore because she realizes that you are the best thing that ever happened to her and she does NOT want to lose you. She understands she might lose you and it's because of her actions but she is doing everythind she can to show you over and extended period of time that she WANTS to be with you and YOU only. She will no longer blame you for things she did. May not be specifically what you will see but it should be similar to that. Those are concrete actions that she can take.

If this conversation ruins my life and destroys my children then you can have the last word. But I might just say, "Enough talk, I want action!"

No amount of conversations you have will ruin your life or your kids. Your WW already did that with her A. Slight correction, she ruined your M not your life. You still have plenty of life to live and right now you can't see past where you are. Speaking from experience your life and the life of your kids from now on are changed but they aren't ruined. Your WW was the cause of the change but how you adapt and move forward as well as your kids is completely up to YOU. I put up with an unremorseful WW for 2 years after DDay. I had hundreds of conversations, I tried to get her to quit her job where she still saw OM even after the A was over. For some of us our WS's don't get it and may never get it but you don't have to go down with the ship. Get your kids and do what's best for you. At some point I woke up and filed. My WW wasn't goign to change and the only thing I could chagne was me. So I went about focusing on me and forgetting about her.

I will be officially d in 4 months. I have been S waiting on D for 8 months now. We have 50/50 custody of the kids. My kids are 8 and 6. Is it a transition for the kids sure but guess what my kids are thriving now because they get stability now. There isn't tension in the house. There are rules they follow at my house and rules they follow at Mom's house. My life is great without the drama, the stress, the constantly pulling in one direction while my STBXWW pulled in the opposite direction. This isn't a contest it's our lives. It's always your choice but to choose to actively stay with an unremorseful WS trying to convince them to do things the "right" way, your way, or whatever you want to convince them of is actually how you end up destroying yourself and your kids. If you say the sky is blue your WW is going to say no it's red.

My STBXWW was foggy as shit when I first arrived at SI. Everyone saw it and told me what would happen. I ended up following their advice but it took 2 years of hell to get me to do it. Your old life and M is gone. It will not be back and anything going forward will be different. There is no return to the status qou and why would you want to. Your WW had her A during the status quo. What you do with your current and new life is up to you. I wish you the best.

I am not trying to be an ass just trying to get you to see that you have to think long term and when you are neck deep in the shitstorm it's hard to get some perspective. We all lived our own version of this same story where we were in the house with WS's everyday. Six months from now your perspective will be different. 1 year from now it will be different. The direction yrou life takes is up to you. Your WW has shown she is not pulling in the same direction as you. You pick a direction and go. She will either follow or she won't. Either way there will be pain but at least you are moving forward and not stuck in this wash rinse repeat cycle. don't let FEAR keep you from moving forward.

ETA: What happens if your WW comes home and drops D papers on you? That is a possiblity.

[This message edited by 7yrsflushed at 9:35 AM, February 19th (Wednesday)]

The main thing I see is that he came here after setting up his target. His target is winning his wife back. He wont mind f its with kid or without kid, with OM or without OM.

So, what ever we are going to say or said is not going to make any difference.May be few months or yrs later he may understand it, but by then he may have gone too far.

What can we do if he is choosing to live his life miserable? Nothing.

May god give him strength and courage to live his life like a MAN.

I generally don't come to this forum because it is too hard for me. It makes me so sad to hear about the fresh pain and the horrible treatment of WSs, but the headline popped out at me. I read this morning and felt very heavy. So I just feel the need to add on here.

I am just over a year out, and in a great place with my H. I feel like a teenager in a new love, even though we have been together for 15 years. It's tough, tough is a new way of living now - but it's something I'm willing to do in order to have my family and to be the person I want to be from now on. The pain forces me to work on myself constantly, and I love who I am becoming.

I found SI at about 6 months out, and honestly, I'm kind of glad I didn't find it right away. When I hear this story, I feel like it's too much to hear and process so early on. I made some decisions in the early days that may not have been received in a friendly way here, but dear lord am I glad that I made them now.

My H told me he was leaving me when he told me about the A. I heard a lot of what you have heard; that he was unhappy, that he assumed I was too and that I would be relieved to hear that I was 'free'. He was shocked at my reaction, the magnitude with which I argued for him to stay and try to restore or save our family. I really think I was a 'mama bear' at that time and thinking only of giving our beautiful baby boys a chance to have a whole family.

So I begged him to stay. He told me he found a love with the OW like none he had felt for me. He told me he found a happiness he had never felt with me. He told me he felt badly for what the OW was enduring, which was why he wanted to leave. I learned that they had planned to have a child in secret and raise it in the affair, but my H had decided that was 'too crazy'.

All of these things are impossible to live with. I could torment myself daily.

I choose to live. I do not regret my choices. Choose to live.

Besides that, I say fight to convnice your W to stay and try. She is in a fog, and the only way for her to get out of the fog is to completely detach from her AP. I say no, he can't come to doctor appointments. He can't be present at the birth, he can have whatever legal rights you decide, but he cannot have anything to do with your wife (if you choose to R).

When she is away from him, her fog will start to dissipate. Life is more than fulfilling her immediate desire.

Just, stick with what you want. Be good to yourself. Be willing to admit what you can change (which you sound like you really really are), and be gentle with communication.

You will be ok.