SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

If you want a partner, you want a person who will say 'No!' to you. Partners are equals, and they don't force one another to do something one doesn't want to do.

I think you've got the makings of R now. You'll have to wait and see if your W follows up, but it sounds like she now has some sense of what she needs to do.

You have work, too. Among other things, you need to develop observable requirements for R, and you'll have to work together to define a new M that serves both of you. You'll have to process the feelings of grief, anger, fear, and shame out of your body. And you'll have to raise and resolve issues as they arise.

But you're a human being, so you can do all that you need to do.

I’m happy to see your latest update. After reading your previous post regarding not enough remorse and remembering your comment about tear stains on your car seat I was planning to ask you if you had visually cried in front of WW. Remorse isn’t just deeply regretting the A and the resulting consequences. That is REGRET and about what they have done to themselves. Remorse is them internalizing YOUR pain and anguish to the point where observing you suffer will cause them anguish and the desire to do whatever is necessary to help you heal. Remorse requires empathy and comes from fully realizing the devastation their actions have wroth upon the person they love. REMORSE is about what they have done to you. She needed to see your suffering to fully understand the pain she has caused.

In your latest post you didn’t mention your requirement of her attending church. I’m hoping you don’t press that. What you need in order to regain TRUST is for her to be honest and truthful in the things she says and does. You will be making a mistake if you require her to pretend be someone she isn’t.

I strongly recommend you get the book “How to help your spouse Heal from Your Affair” by Linda MacDonald. Have her read it or you both might read it together. There are downloads available on the internet or you can order on Amazon. It has helped a lot of People.

I'm wishing you the best!

Small update, and some questions or comments that I wanted to address.

"If you want a partner, you want a person who will say 'No!' to you. Partners are equals, and they don't force one another to do something one doesn't want to do."

I REALLY need to learn how to quote in a response. Lol.

So, the minor change that I asked her for a while ago concerns a razor. This is done before many times, and my reason for even asking this isn't over my own "devient" needs. It was so that I wouldn't be seeing the same thing that he did. That she did this for me. That I was worth something. I asked, and hinted a few more times, and I knew she understood the message. It never happened. I eventually blew up at her. We were trying to be physical, and I was hopeful that my request was granted. It wasn't. I just got up and left and went downstairs. She came down a few minutes later not really understanding why I was so pissed. Once again, I explained how I asked her for something. I gave her my reasoning. She told me that it made her feel uncomfortable. She does kickboxing and said that she is afraid of irritation. I then begin to explain to her what makes me feel uncomfortable. How I have visions of him on top of her. That there's not anything I can do to rid myself of this. At least she has the option of saying no. I don't have that luxury. I've sent cooled down quite a bit over it, but it is just one of those things that she wasn't willing to accommodate me on. I really didn't think that my request was unreasonable.

The other point was going to church. We both had been raised in a home where we would go to church. When we were married, we tried getting back into that, but nothing really felt right for us. Eventually, we had children. One of our greatest regrets as parents is not at least giving them a religious education. When I put that stipulation on the table, my reasoning was that evil has entered into our house, and maybe this would restore the balance. It also gives us a chance to write one of the wrongs that I felt we did to our children. I honestly thought this would make us better people, whether we stayed as a couple or decided to move on. We could at least rid ourselves of one of our regrets as parents.

There, now that I got that out of the way, I could talk about how yesterday went. Lol. I wasn't cold, and I talk to her normally. I didn't bring up any of the struggles we faced the day prior. I want to give her hope. She did Express to me that she feels awful about what happened, and once again her shame. She feels that I will never look at her in the same way again, that I will always consider her damaged goods. The only thing I could tell her is that she's right. I won't ever look at her the same. She's not the same person. Who can be after this type of Crisis. I told her I want her to be better. I want her to be stronger through all of this. She even said that she messed everything up, and she doesn't think that she deserves me anymore. She wants me to be happy, even if that means that I'm no longer with her. A lot of Tears were shed that night. The thing is, I want to stay. I can't imagine my life without her and my children. It's a very hard thing for me to Fathom. She is still my best friend. I truly enjoy the time that we were together. I do know that there are other people out there. I do think that I would do fairly well as a "free agent", but it would take me time. I think I'm pretty realistic and what my strengths and flaws are.

I'm pretty confident in believing that she thinks I'm here just for my children. At first, I can't say that her assessment would have been inaccurate. The thing is, I do think that she's a great person, even after all she's put me through. I do think there is a chance, but I want her to want this. I need her to put in the work to be that better person. I can't make her do this.

I understand that she's shameful about her poor choices, but how does one Express that she needs to put that aside so that we can move forward? I think she's so attached to her "good, wholesome" image that it's Road blocking us. She even said that she feels judged by The Counselor. That he probably thinks she's a bad person. Why would his opinion matter so much??

Technical answer. Highlight the text and then click on the bold, italic or quote button. I don't know how to do this on my phone, using Simplicity, or if it's even possible.

(It's rumored that the SI staff is currently working on a sarcasm button, although, as far as you know, I just started that rumor).

So, if I understand this correctly, you want your wife to shave her pubic hairs off so that her pussy will look differently to you than it did to the OM? And she has refused? As gently as I can say this, it's just a pussy and it's just hair, man. I mean, if she shaved her hair into little shapes or letters. Could she shave in a message, like "No Entry" or "Authorized Personal Only?

Dude, I get it. I really do. Infidelity is crazy-making shit. I'd suggest you give it a try first.

Church, of course, is a far less hairy problem. I'm not much of a church-goer, though my wife is a member and volunteer of our local Universalist Unitarian Society. Lovely people. Quite diverse! But you know, God won't fix your WW either. She has to do that all on her own, with or without divine influence.

I understand that she's shameful... that she needs to put that aside... she's so attached to her "good, wholesome" image... she feels judged... thinks she's a bad person...

Gently, brother, but this is hard stuff for most WS to get through. One doesn't simply set aside that shame. They have to work through it. Of course she's holding on to the imagine of herself as a good and wholesome, for if she isn't those things, then who could love her? That's a part of that shame and it's natural. If she's able to embrace that, to feel that remorse, then maybe she'll also have the courage to dig a little deeper and figure out how to get through it, to move on, to not feel judged, however deserved, as a bad person.

Don't be too confident in your beliefs about what she does or doesn't think or feel. The only way you'll ever know is if you ask and give her the opportunity to respond, while listening. You'll never understand your WW, or anyone else for that matter, until you seek to understand rather than to be understood.

I had a very close friend once tell me something I needed to hear. So, I'm going to pass it along to you.

"Loving her does not mean that you can live with her. Loving her means that you can't live without her."

How much do you love her? I do wish you well.

As I’m reading the part of you requesting that she shave, my thoughts are that that request is manipulative. I’m sorry to say that, but that’s how it reads. Do I think WS should do things to make us feel safe? Yes. But this is what our counselor would call emotional blackmail. Instead of asking for this, describe to your wife what you feel like emotionally regarding sex. That you can’t get OM out of your mind. That he took what wasn’t his. Then grieve together. Become emotionally vulnerable together. Do you really want your wife to do something that she’s uncomfortable doing with her body?

At least that’s my opinion. I’m sorry if this was too harsh. I’m a woman and a bw and to me I believe each person has the right to decide what they feel comfortable with as far as shaving goes and shouldn’t be told what to do. And I know shaving is popular in the younger generation but to me I don’t like it because I feel it makes a woman look prepubescent and the thought of that is disgusting to me. So your wife could have many reasons to say no.

I'll chime in and say, I think your request is entirely reasonable and, if I were the cheater, and my W asked me to shave that area; I wouldn't even ask why, I'd just do it.

Sometimes I read this stuff and think to myself that these BS's don't have a clue the pain they caused. No, they shouldn't have to cut off their hand with a dull knife to make amends. But shaving their pubic area? Something a TON of people do anyway? I'm sorry, but this is kind of in the same category with "stop seeing the AP" to me. It shouldn't require a long drawn out, crying, baring your soul conversation. I'd like you to do that because I think we would enjoy it/something new.

Do WS's in this situation really want to hear the "reason" for it? I mean, if I was the WS, I sure as heck wouldn't want to hear "I want you to shave because the thought of your pubic hair makes me sick because I associate it with your AP". Not for a second. I'd much rather hear "Please shave for me, I think it'll be sexy". There's such as thing as "oversharing", and I think this would be a good example of it. Same things with sexual acts; I hear a lot of conversation about anal sex with a WW after the A, something I've thought about several times. But there's two ways to put this, one is "I'd like to experience something new together", the other is "I struggle with vaginal sex now because the thought of being where he was makes me sick". Both are true, but one, IMHO, is a much better version of the truth.

Well, that was pretty rough to read.

Emotional blackmail. Manipulative. I guess that I never looked at it that way. Don't I feel like an ass now.

Thanks for your perspective on this. I guess I see your point. I was looking at it as a small gesture to make me feel better, something that would have so little imoact to her, something only I would have known. A way for her to make me feel like she cared about my wants. I guess I was thinking of it more in the lines of if your house is broken into, most people would want to change something about that house. Of course, the locks and Security will be the first thing, but maybe redecorating. I just wanted something to be different. Not trying to justify, even though that's what it sounds like, but just explain my differences. Maybe I did push too hard on this. Her refusal meant in my mind like she didn't care about what I wanted. It was compounded by my belief of her rug sweeping. Totally see your point on this though, and that isn't who I want to be.

So, yesterday night was a tough one for me mentally. I don't know if it happens to most people, but stupid things kind of enter your head. I was at work, and outta nowhere, I remembered those times that I worked from home on occasion. I would text her and ask if she wanted to do lunch, and was always told no, that she had a shorter lunch, or she made plans with the girls at work. This wasn't a one time thing. Well, she was meeting up with the AP. it just struck me that she chose to be with him than me. It messed me up for the day. I came home, and had a hard time being "on". We had dinner, I tried faking engagement in conversation, but I wasn't there mentally. My wife knows that I've kind of started struggling pretty badly recently. I was distant, and just wanted to end the day with hopes of a brighter tomorrow. She knew that I was in pain, and just came to me and offered me a hug. It meant something, because I'm not really the huggy type at all. I then went to bed at 9:00, which is very untypical.

About 30 minutes later, after the kids were put to bed, which is usually my duty, she came in and saw that I was awake. She said that she knows that I'm hurting, and she doesn't really know how to proceed. She didn't know if I wanted to talk or just be left alone, so she tried to stay upbeat. She told me that if I need to talk, she's here, otherwise she'll leave me alone. She again apologized stating that she knows that her actions are what caused me to be in a funk.

We had a short talk. I explain what's going on in my head, And of course she apologized profusely. I can't remember everything she said last night, but in her own way, it was exactly what I needed to hear. Was it good way for me to end a bad day and actually get some sleep.

She asked what she could have done differently in that situation, and I told her she did exactly what I needed. What I say it was our most therapeutic night of all? Absolutely not. But, it's definitely a step in the right direction. A huge step. It meant a lot for her to acknowledge my feelings, instead of buffering herself from. Having to hear my pain. I was proud of her.

Emotional blackmail. Manipulative. I guess that I never looked at it that way. Don't I feel like an ass now.

I don't know why. Your request is entirely reasonable. Did you say "shave your pubic area so I'll love you again"? That's emotional blackmail. Or did you say "I'd like you to shave your pubic area for me"? Because that's just a request, an entirely reasonable one I'd add, especially in light of what happened. If she wants to dig into the "why" then yes, it could get emotional, but that's her own fault for asking; making it about more than just satisfying a request.

Ask for what you want. Respect her right to say no. And remember you can always walk away. That's how an honest and well integrated individual acts. Asking her to do this is NOT blackmail of any kind, even tell her it's a dealbreaker isn't blackmail if it really IS a deal breaker.

The thought that a WS would refuse something like this to their spouse, male or female, boggles my mind. I'd do it (shave my pubic area) for someone I just barely liked if I thought it would be enjoyable for them. I can't believe it would be that big a deal to some people.

I read that you want to R.

no problem with that.

have you talked to an attorney about a separation agreement to protect yourself, in case she finds someone else to do lunch and such?

She still works where she did when she had the A.

You could be hurt again. very easy.

A separation agreement is not a D, but can be used as a base for D. Just want you to protect yourself.

She has not really found her reasons, but she wanted to be with the OM over you.

It would still be going on. She did not have plans to ever stop.

Just hoping that you do not get hurt again. Your self esteem is down. Her self esteem may be down also, and a new A would give her some temporary escape.

want you to protect yourself so that the kids have one parent that is a dependable parent.

Yep only men cheat. But they usually do so with another married girl. Actually just as many girls betray their husbands as men do their wives.

Its just that most times the wives don't admit to it

Has your WW read "How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair?" by Linda MacDonald?

I think it takes some wayward spouses a while to realize just how much damage they've done to themselves and to those around them. I can't really speak for my wife, but I'd say it was at least a good two years before the depths of it all became clear to her. It's a hard road, man.