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I think the problem is you want me to say - 100% of offenders should be found guilty.

Did I say that? Where? Because I'm pretty sure I didn't. I said that if there would be more than 3% - like, maybe even 20% - of convictions, which would probably be more likely if they actually tested the rape kits - then maybe more lives would be saved.

If you think that a simple accusation is enough to convict someone, then I strongly disagree.

I don't, and I'm fairly sure I never said that either. Please don't lump me in with the groups that want that.

As I said before, all accusations should be taken seriously and investigated.

They should be. But they're NOT. That's what I've been trying to say.

What I'd want, more than anything, is some compassion for the survivors. Not filled with a ton of disclaimers about the false accusations or arguments that someone wants 100% whatever - not with extreme statements or endless statistics that endlessly put people on the defensive. Just some goddamn simple, human compassion for the folks (at minimum the folks HERE) who we KNOW or trust have been through this shit. I'm pretty sure that's what a survivor really wants - compassion. Is that really a lot to ask?

And if a person doesn't have any compassion to give without feeling like feminism is punishing them and like giving compassion is the equivalent of supporting feminism, and like those two things - sexual assault/abuse/rape survivors and men rights - are automatically at odds when they AREN'T, then perhaps they should step back, take a deep breath, and reconsider. Equating those two leads to fighting that is really unnecessary and results in no one being heard. If someone came here to post about a false accusation they'd had leveled against them, I wouldn't be posting stats on false accusations, nor would I be disparaging men's rights. I'd be giving them my compassion that they'd been victimized that way.

I really appreciate your posts Silverhopes. I just would like you to know that.

I said sexually assaulted/ raped.

Sexual assault is any type of sexual contact or behaviour that is unwanted and without consent.

Rape is well rape.

I didn’t even bring up the sexual harassment I’m sure theyve gone through...and they’re teenagers.

So yeah, 50%.

Myself, I’ve been subjected (several years apart) to 2 date rapes by men I thought were my friends. Not my fault. I genuinely don’t place any blame on myself for their disgusting behaviour. But both times, after discussing it with my girlfriends, we all concluded that if I chose to report, nothing would get done aside from me being known as a slut. Hows that for justice?

So l sat on my hands as these 2 people get to live their lives with no consequences.

So, waving your straw man about false rape allegations stats and other stats that do not focus on the actual problem of men assaulting women, children and other men...well, there’s a big old hunk of the problem right there..

How about the problem of women assaulting children? Do we care about that one?

Because while your experience says that we need to teach men not to rape women, mine says that we need to teach women not to sexually assault children.

Let me guess, the next thing that you are going to say is that it's a small percentage, right? Well what if told you that the fact that I was molested means that I couldn't give less of a shit about the numbers.

Or wait, "not all women" right?

Feminism is not the fix-all for every problem. We need to do more than just tell men not to rape. If you think that men have the market cornered on being fucked up pieces of shit, I have news for you.

Thank you TKOGA. I really appreciate you saying that.

Frankiesbeads - I am so sorry that happened to you. It's not right. I hope someday, consequences will catch up with those two scumbags. It makes total sense that you're worried your daughters might be targeted and assaulted one day; I dearly hope they never are.

I bumped the thread I'd linked earlier. It's on page two, called "Women's perspective on on demand sex". Is that the one you were looking for?

How about the problem of women assaulting children? Do we care about that one?

I care about that one. One of the people who abused me is a woman in my family. My husband was abused by his teacher's aide.

Reports and incidents should be equally taken seriously, no matter if the attacker is a man or a woman.

Well what if told you that the fact that I was molested means that I couldn't give less of a shit about the numbers.

I'm so sorry that happened to you, xhz. Did you have any support after it happened? Did she ever face any consequences for what she did to you?

[This message edited by silverhopes at 3:25 PM, August 14th (Tuesday)]

Actually, funny story, she molested me YEARS after molesting my brother, who told my mom shortly after it happened. My mom did nothing, didn't believe that a woman could do something like that. That's what she told me when I was 16, I'm not guessing.

I got support in my late thirties. My mom's attachment to feminism and the fact that I have been pretty continuously let down by women in any one of a number of ways (including her, she was almost uniquely awful) makes it pretty hard to swallow that as a universal fix-all. Every time I hear how awful men are, and I have frequently heard it said exactly like that by self reported feminists, I remember the fact that my dad's stabilizing influence is solely responsible for the fact that I am still alive.

For every "not all women" there is a "not all men". For every physically abusive man, there is an emotionally abusive woman. The idea that woman power (feminism) is going to come along and crush man power (patriarchy) and everything will be OK comes across as absurd and disgusting to me. Any ideology existing outside of egalitarian principles (feminism at its roots does NOT) is wrong and should be roundly dismissed.

Having grown up with sexual, physical AND emotional abuse, want to guess which one I think is the hardest to recover from? Because it isn't close.

[This message edited by xhz700 at 3:44 PM, August 14th (Tuesday)]

[wuote]How about the problem of women assaulting children? Do we care about that one?

Because while your experience says that we need to teach men not to rape women, mine says that we need to teach women not to sexually assault children.

Let me guess, the next thing that you are going to say is that it's a small percentage, right? Well what if told you that the fact that I was molested means that I couldn't give less of a shit about the numbers.

Or wait, "not all women" right?

Feminism is not the fix-all for every problem. We need to do more than just tell men not to rape. If you think that men have the market cornered on being fucked up pieces of shit, I have news for you.[\quote]

And those women are just as disgusting as the men who do it.

Completely and utterly disgusting.

And they should be convicted as well. Im sorry you went through that, I truly am.

And I’ve had some time to reflect on this post and I got heated. I felt as though statistics were becoming more important than the actual message of what I initially posted.

This thresd wasn’t the direction I intended.

I'm sorry, Frankiesbeads, you're right. We got the thread very off track and did not respect what you had initially posted. I'm sorry for my part in that.

.

I'm pretty sure that's what a survivor really wants - compassion. Is that really a lot to ask?

I don't know how to say it any clearer: that's exactly what I've been saying - take the accusations seriously, aka, compassion, not dismissal. But not as gospel.

You're also conflating using statistics to understand what is going on nationally with what might be happening with a particular individual. These are two very different things.

If someone came here to post about a false accusation they'd had leveled against them, I wouldn't be posting stats on false accusations, nor would I be disparaging men's rights. I'd be giving them my compassion that they'd been victimized that way.

Somehow I feel that if I started saying 50% of all accusations of DV by women are false, you'd have an issue with it. But I can cite dozens of men on this very site that have endured just such a thing - including myself.

Because I know some people who suffered this, doesn't mean I know everyone who's been accused. That's what statistics are for - to see the whole picture, not just anecdotes.

Frankiesbeads: I am sorry for contributing to the T/J. I shouldn't have. I was triggered today because our state's Grand Jury just published the report today on the Catholic Church's child sex abuse cases and cover up.

WornDown,

This thread was not started to argue about stats. We were wrong to make it about stats instead of offering Frankiesbeads compassion about her situation.

I'll make sure not to make the same mistake if someone posts about being a victim of false accusations. I won't start talking stats about false vs real accusations: instead I'll offer them compassion for their own individual situation.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 9:22 PM, August 14th (Tuesday)]

First:

Frankiesbeads --

WH and Iwere discussing feminism this morning. I was onanother site and it was asked ‘why do men support more feminism for their daughters than their wives?’. Which is a great question, TBH.

So I shared this with WH and he said he always did support me and my rights in society. My reply was ‘you didn’t in our marriage. I was there.’ And he got all pissy, saying I was wrong.

Dude, you made me feel like a whore, and I told you for years. How is that supporting my rights?

He clearly wasn't, and is unfortunately not alone in that by any stretch. One of the objectives of Third Wave feminism, and to some degree Second Wave feminism, was/is integrating the larger scale political actions of previous activists into active social dynamics and interaction expectations. For many individuals, couples, and families, that is still a problem. There can be no real change or support if someone pays lip service to sexual equality and wellness in theory, yet continues to engage in sexual objectification and coercive tactics in practice. You are right to be frustrated, and kudos to you for challenging his contradictory behavior. Addressing this in our relationships is where the grassroots change is realized.

Second:

WTeverlovingF is going on with this thread?!? The overt threadjacking and aggressive attacks on equal rights (AKA feminism, according to actual dictionary-referenced definitions) are beyond misdirected, offensive, and inappropriate. I can't believe the moderators have allowed this to take place. There are so many inaccuracies and projections going on here, it's almost like a flurry of white noise rather than anything resembling a respectful conversation. This was NOT what I expected at all in opening this thread.

I would VERY MUCH love to discuss some of the statements and assertions that have been posted here, but need to respect the wishes of the OP...who has stated several times that NONE of this is welcome on her thread.

If any of the posters who have been challenging equal rights wants to create a venue for that discussion, you can expect my engaged participation. I'm presuming if these comments have been allowed, then a separate thread would also be allowed. I have some thoughts, stats, and questions for your consideration, in addition to some questions I would like answered. I will be looking forward to this discussion.

Unreal.

WTeverlovingF is going on with this thread?!? The overt threadjacking and aggressive attacks on equal rights (AKA feminism, according to actual dictionary-referenced definitions) are beyond misdirected, offensive, and inappropriate. I can't believe the moderators have allowed this to take place.

SI has from day one allowed free speech. That's a plus in my book.

A thread becomes organic. T/Jing is expected, but the guidelines ask us to avoid it. I've certainly failed many times.

If any of the posters who have been challenging equal rights wants to create a venue for that discussion, you can expect my engaged participation. I'm presuming if these comments have been allowed, then a separate thread would also be allowed. I have some thoughts, stats, and questions for your consideration, in addition to some questions I would like answered. I will be looking forward to this discussion.

So start a thread, state your opinions (within the guidelines) and have at it. I really don't see the problem.

FinallyHappy --

SI has from day one allowed free speech. That's a plus in my book.

Not quite. There are posting rules that specifically ask members to avoid posting about certain topics, such as:

1. NO POLITICS: We have zero tolerance of discussing politics. There is to be NO mention of political names, and absolutely no political topic content in any context. Violation of this guideline results in losing your posting privileges. -- SurvivingInfidelity.com® Rules

8. GENERAL STATEMENTS: Please refrain from making statements that generalize gender, WS/OP/BS, race, religion or political alignment. Also do not presume to speak on behalf of other people. -- SurvivingInfidelity.com® Rules

It seems to me that comments focusing on whether or not a large-scale political and cultural movement is validated, worthwhile, and beneficial as extrapolated from one member's comments on lived experiences with sexism and hypocrisy in her marriage might be coming pretty close to violating these boundaries.

A thread becomes organic. T/Jing is expected, but the guidelines ask us to avoid it. I've certainly failed many times.

That would be this guideline, right?

2. ON TOPIC: Respect the original posters' intent and avoid threadjacking. Feel free to start new topics to discuss general subject matter in other threads, but do not refer to specific topics or threads outside of their original location. -- SurvivingInfidelity.com® Rules

While threadjacking can and does occur, as it is right now in our exchange, very few posters and responses in this thread address the original comment in question even after several redirection requests by the OP. That is not only seemingly disrespectful, it is also not the first time in recent weeks where a conversation regarding women's lived experiences has been derailed on this site by challenges to the generalized theory and application of equal rights.

So start a thread, state your opinions (within the guidelines) and have at it. I really don't see the problem.

1. Yes, that is apparent.

2. I just did that exact thing recently with the help of our mods in ICR.

3. Are you suggesting I start a separate thread detailing my personal political opinions while addressing content contained in specific responses on this thread? That would seemingly be a violation of this guideline (plus Gudeline #2 as quoted above):

4. FLAMING & SHAMING: Please refrain from attacking or shaming, publicly or by using the SI.com Private Message feature. Do not bait or call out others. This includes members and non-members. -- SurvivingInfidelity.com® Rules[/quotes]

The overt threadjacking and aggressive attacks on equal rights (AKA feminism, according to actual dictionary-referenced definitions) are beyond misdirected, offensive, and inappropriate. I can't believe the moderators have allowed this to take place. There are so many inaccuracies and projections going on here, it's almost like a flurry of white noise rather than anything resembling a respectful conversation. This was NOT what I expected at all in opening this thread.

I would VERY MUCH love to discuss some of the statements and assertions that have been posted here, but need to respect the wishes of the OP...who has stated several times that NONE of this is welcome on her thread.

If any of the posters who have been challenging equal rights wants to create a venue for that discussion, you can expect my engaged participation. I'm presuming if these comments have been allowed, then a separate thread would also be allowed. I have some thoughts, stats, and questions for your consideration, in addition to some questions I would like answered. I will be looking forward to this discussion.

So, pointing out that wildly outrageous statistics are wrong, with actual facts, is now misogynistic?

(And, yes, I'm replying since you decided to take a shot at me and call me, "beyond misdirected, offensive, and inappropriate." Don't throw out accusations/names and then try to hide behind, "He's threadjacking!")

I look forward to your new thread explaining how pointing out facts is mysoginistic.

WornDown --

So, pointing out that wildly outrageous statistics are wrong, with actual facts, is now misogynistic?

(And, yes, I'm replying since you decided to take a shot at me and call me, "beyond misdirected, offensive, and inappropriate." Don't throw out accusations/names and then try to hide behind, "He's threadjacking!")

I look forward to your new thread explaining how pointing out facts is mysoginistic.

Why are you assuming I am referencing anything you posted and/or your comments on statistics? I do not make any references to your username, any of your specific comments, the term "misogyny", and a direct accusation of threadjacking on your part in any of my statements.

I look forward to your explanation of this interpretation.

This thread was initially me looking for something so I could show WH what I felt about how his 180 on feminism.

I made one comment about feminism that got the ball rolling.

Honestly, some of the responses made me feel invalidated. Which made me angry, frustrated and hurt.

Infidelity at its core is the nuclear bomb of invalidating your spouse. I know that what a WS does really isn’t about the BS, but these are the consequences of the choice to have an affair.

So, when my comment about how one of my 2 daughters will statistically be sexually assaulted or raped, it was *invalidated*.

Sats were thrown at me to challenge mine, the not all men argument was tossed in there, how we have to teach our children to make sure the girl is ‘legal’ to protect themselves, women abusing children ( which is sickening)...etc etc etc.

These are valid POV. All of them. You need all angles.

But each of them invalidated the likelihood that my daughters are going to be sexually harassed and or assaulted.

Each of those invalidated the actual problem of sexual assault. Each of them ignored the problem. They stood ON my concern for what I know is inevitable. My concern was used to prop up another’s. That is not a necessary method of debate. All it seems to do is suppress and *invalidate* by essentially yelling that argument louder.

These POV’s are tools and personal arguments to avoid getting ones hands dirty at participating in the actual solution of sexual assault in our society.

Speaking up, protecting those that you see being harassed, calling out your male (and female) friends when they participate in ‘well, she shouldn’t have drank so much at that party’ or ‘what did she expect by dressing like that?’.

Women expect to not be assaulted. Easy.

Children expect to not be assaulted. Easy.

Women and children never come to the decision of telling with ease.

Because history has shown that they will be invalidated. By the people they love and complete strangers weighing in on their case if its public.

And this thread was a perfect example of that.

This thread was one big old fat invalidation.

Those of you BS know what it’s like to be invalidated. You live with it. And it sucks.

You deserve empathy and understanding and to be heard and not dismissed. And so do those that have been assaulted. They do not need skepticism or blame or ‘you should have donr this or that instead’. When people, men and women, do that to an assault victim, thats the exact same as YOU being blamed for your spouses affair.

Invalidated. Dismissed.

They want the blame to land exactly where it should, just as you did when you discovered your informed consent was removed from you. You didn’t do it. You made the right choices. You want to be *validated*.

So does any victim of sexually harassment or assault or abuse.

So, let me get my feminist ball cap on and challenge those that are currently comfortable with their arguments that don’t support this angle of feminism to do some reading and research that supports *my point of view*. Not yours, but mine. And if you still don’t agree with it, fine. But at least you have more knowledge. And knowledge is power.

Good luck. I’m out.

Eta: silverhopes I tried to pm you but let me say here that I admire you.

[This message edited by Frankiesbeads at 8:25 AM, August 15th (Wednesday)]

Once again, Rasputina, I suggested you start a thread stating your concerns within the guidelines on this board.

And yes, that includes no politics, no generalizing, and no flaming.

Thank God for that.

Nothing will kill off a board faster than no active moderation combined with political discord.

I'm sorry if that's inconvenient for you....but I'm very happy that's how it is around here. That's how this very special board (to me) has existed for so many years and helped so very many people.

{{{{Frankiesbeads}}}}

I doubt if there's a woman in the world who hasn't been subjected to innuendo, unwanted stares, and inappropriate touching. Luckily, that's all it's been for me, as disgusting as that's always been. I am so sorry that your experiences have been so very much more than that. Many of my friends have also been through this (mostly women, but also a couple of men), and the ramifications are long lived.

I'm so sorry, FB. You were posting at the same time I was.