SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

My opinion relates to reconciliation

As any opinion it is just worth whatever peanuts any other opinion is;

1. Your why however well written and true is essentially irrelevant to reconciliation if that's what you're aiming for. Your focus on it here "sounds" like self gratification and virtue signalling. In the place of your wife I would think my husband likes to feel superior to. Your writing it out here says to me that you are in a self protective state.

2. Your wife's why is essential knowledge for her. It will be very useful knowledge you because your relationship was a dynamic that you participated in.

Example: Wife: I lied to you over the years about my sexual feelings towards other men because early on in our relationship you blocked a discussion because of your own lack of desire to hear (due to your insecurities). Her why is now useful information for you even if you seek another relationship because it tells you something useful about yourself; you were not safe.

Rule: People won't talk cuz they don't feel safe to.

Rule: People won't talk cuz they don't feel safe to

alternative rule: being lied to is not your fault. People lie for all kinds of reasons, Brewbrew. There are many options besides dishonesty.

Yes. And yet his wife took this option. And he is married to her. The only way to get enlightened in relationships is to immerse ourselves in the other person's view.

I know this stuff hurts because it's gets to core of our biggest weakness, killing our egos and dropping that wall of self protection. Letting our love for intimate partners conquer our need to be right and superior and self protect.

I will freely admit I struggle daily, hourly with this. I understand the principle but I fight it with every fibre. I'm doing it now in replying to you!

Another way to look at this:

Every reply I make to argue a point is a mirror to me. Signals my blind spot and my weakness.

Every reply you or the OP disagrees with is a mirror to you. Signals your blind spot.

As any opinion it is just worth whatever peanuts any other opinion is;

Not all opinions are created equally. Your opinion might be valid from your perspective, while others' opinions might be based upon greater experience, training, evidence and logic. Your qualifing statement, right off the bat, belies your own sense of insecurity or arrogance (hard to determine which, if not both).

Your focus on it here "sounds" like self gratification and virtue signalling.

Like any other betrayed spouse or partner reeling from the severe emotional and psychological trauma brought about by the betrayal of infidelity, he is struggling with a perfectly natural and normal existential crisis. Most of us struggle with a profound injury to our sense of self-worth. And while you may be correct that it is self-gratifying to reassure ourselves that nothing we ever did or didn't do, nothing we ever said or didn't say, warranted the betrayals, you compound the error with the egregious accusation that he's merely "virtue signalling" - as if the very real and valid feelings of dehumanization requires external validation from strangers on the internet. I don't care one way or another how virtuous a betrayed spouse might be - not all betrayed spouses are saints - there is no justification for infidelity. None. Zip. Nada.

In the place of your wife I would think my husband likes to feel superior to. Your writing it out here says to me that you are in a self protective state.

My peanuts worthy opinion sees this as your own self-protection; a refusal to accept that infidelity demonstrates inferior morals, ethics and virtue.

Your wife's why is essential knowledge for her. It will be very useful knowledge you because your relationship was a dynamic that you participated in.

This is some truly blame-shifting nonsense. His WW's whys have absolutely nothing to do with their relationship dynamics any more than your infidelity can be righteously blamed on your relationship dynamics with the husband you betrayed.

Example: Wife: I lied to you over the years about my sexual feelings towards other men because early on in our relationship you blocked a discussion because of your own lack of desire to hear (due to your insecurities). Her why is now useful information for you even if you seek another relationship because it tells you something useful about yourself; you were not safe.

You justify dishonesty. You justify infidelity. You shift the blame. It's wayward thinking from start to finish and not even worth a handful of peanuts.

The only way to get enlightened in relationships is to immerse ourselves in the other person's view.

No, it isn't. This isn’t the only way to get "enlightened" in relationships. Internalizing other people's issues is as precarious as refusing to protect ourselves from the damage serial cheaters are capable of inflicting.

My opinions are the ones I like the best right now but they have no inherent value.

I can't control whether you like them or not, it sounds like you don't but this has nothing to do with me and everything to do with your interpretation.

There is no justification for it - yet his wife did it. Did she make sense to herself or didn't she? Does he want to know who she is? It doesn't sound like it and this is obviously no skin off my back if you see what I mean.

I am pointing out the contradiction I notice between what he writes and what he says he wants.

I come across a bit cold and academically I realise.

Your opinions are nothing enlightened, just flowery unmet needs bs.

There are paradox’s thrust on a betrayed person, mainly that our person stabbed us in the back. It takes years to internally resolve that, with lots of twists and turns. Internalizing blame for another adults deceptive choices is entirely unhelpful.

Marriage struggles are almost always a split bill. Betrayal is on the betrayer. Period.

I think you're still missing the point I'm trying to make. I can't be explaining clearly enough.

Does this poster want to know who his wife is or doesn't he? I'm not talking about whether cheating is justified to you or not. Cheaters choose to cheat for their own reasons. All people make sense all the time, to themselves.

My point is does this poster want to know who his wife is? I can't quite see how a relationship can thrive in the long term if people are not interested in what makes each other tick.

[This message edited by Brewbrew at 10:17 PM, Saturday, June 20th]

The title of the thread is about understanding the betrayed. Not the cheater.

Brewbrew, I think you might have missed the point of this thread.

Numerous posts on SI (whether aimed at reconciliation or not) are about the BS understanding the WS's behavior and reasoning, learning to have some empathy and compassion for the WS, figuring out if forgiveness is possible, etc.

This particular thread started by pointedly asking why we rarely discuss the BS's behavior and reasoning. Not to put words in Gemmy's mouth, but I don't think he was asking for reconciliation advice.

My answer to why we rarely discuss the BS reasoning is that they aren't the perpetrators.

If you address reasoning for behaviours that don't need fixing, it seems to keep you in a position of powerlessness.

Maybe the OP has been habituated to feeling powerless. I know this is what happened to my BS in childhood. It seems to force the relationship into a skewed dynamic if the person they marry has an opposite dysfunction from childhood. They both need to change the steps of the dance.

He can start or she can start. Starting on his side gives him the power he probably needs to get back. Or he can leave, that's also taking power back.

This post is not taking any power back. If you concretely change something you're thinking or doing, it feels immediately better after. This has been my experience anyway.

[This message edited by Brewbrew at 8:23 AM, Sunday, June 21st]

@Brewbrew

I feel like you are still missing the point.

In simple terms, if we accept the premise that cheating is often just a byproduct of a dysfunctional relationship, then every unhappy partner would have a valid justification to cheat. But they don't.

We spend a lot of time discussing the reasons why a wayward partner crosses that line, but we rarely discuss the other side of the equation: what is it inside the faithful partner that keeps them faithful?

You could take Morbs’ cynical view and argue that the faithful partner simply hasn't encountered their own "perfect storm" of temptation, or you could chalk it up to a mere lack of opportunity. Whilst I accept this could be the case in certain scenarios. I strongly believe that some people simply have a solid moral foundation. They possess a level of character and integrity that prevents them from executing that kind of betrayal, no matter how bad the relationship gets.

So a fair contribution would be for you to examine your relationship, on the presumption your partner remained faithful, why were they able to stay faithful where failed?

Ultimately, this is all opinions.

In every relationship where cheating occurs there is dysfunction. There is a power dynamic that isn't balanced.

Every step of the way each partner reinforces that power dynamic. Ultimately one of them steps out and cheats (can sometimes be both) and the other assumes the role of victim. The cheat then assumes the role of victim of the relationship as a reason for the betrayal. Sometimes they just get divorced and no-one cheats. Probably opportunities to cheat play a strong role in whether or not they choose cheating for a new connection or simply fleeing.

These power dynamics develop as a result of dysfunctional coping mechanism learned early in life. The cheat develops one sort of mechanism, the victim develops another. They keep repeating the same behaviours reinforcing the power dynamic right up until the moment one cheats. Probably during multiple years. I know that's what we did and I don't think it's unique in any way.

Each person has to address their own issues. What I personally see in the attitude displayed by this OP is one of continued victimhood. He was likely 'Mr Nice Guy' during the relationship. His wife might have bullied him and he silently submitted.

Assertive talking involves stating your feelings and showing curiosity about the other person's feelings. Stating your opinions as opinions. Submissive talking is...Life is so unfair and I didn't do anything wrong, etc.

They possess a level of character and integrity that prevents them from executing that kind of betrayal, no matter how bad the relationship gets Nah, sorry, don't buy it! The OP sounds like he has plenty to fix.

That knowledge that your partner can and has lied will never be forgotten. I don’t think it wise to forget it.

I also think this process is wonderful. I think it is earned. It is a huge wake-up call to what I call "blind living", living out of contact, living in fantasies. Tis about growing up. Hopefully the shock is big enough to truly wake up the Affaired-against partner and never let them go back into dreams-ville.

[This message edited by Brewbrew at 1:18 PM, Sunday, June 21st]

In every relationship where cheating occurs there is dysfunction. There is a power dynamic that isn't balanced.

This is blame-shifting. There are plenty of BS who truly believed that they had a good marriage and were completely blind-sided by their WS's betrayal(s). There are plenty of WS who have freely admitted that they had a good marriage. The state of one's marriage has absolutely nothing at all to do with why a spouse takes a stroll down Infidelity Lane.

This isn’t just a "peanuts worthy" opinion. This is the result of years of research. I've spent years reading thousands of threads on SI, following scores of members' stories (betrayed and wayward). This is the result of reading several books and countless articles and research papers about infidelity.

The dysfunction lies within the wayward spouse, not the relationship, not because of some delusional power struggle, not because of some "perfect storm," or Mars transiting Aquarius.

Take responsibility for yourself, BrewBrew. Stop blaming anything or anyone else for your choices and actions.

There are plenty of BS who truly believed that they had a good marriage and were completely blind-sided by their WS's betrayal(s). There are plenty of WS who have freely admitted that they had a good marriage

This depends on how you define a good marriage. My definition is now based on Sharing Everything, being in the Inner Circle. You may have another definition of course.

If you want to be relaxed, you could choose to live alone. (We are not built to live alone, though.) But if you want to be relaxed AND live with someone, then I believe you must choose the inner of the two circles. To feel safe, to have low blood pressure, to be free of tension (at least when with your partner) all you need is to create a relationship of few or no surprises. To be a source of safety to your partner you must gently share new stuff. No surprises mean safety.

However, the only way to get no surprises is to share everything. If I know what my partner is thinking, if I know how she operates, what her values are, what her likes and dislikes are, then what she does will not surprise me and I can relax. I may not like or prefer what she does, but it will not surprise me and I can be at ease with her.

Thus, if you want to feel safe with a person, you need to develop the mutual habits of sharing everything easily, comfortably, and readily. Simple.

Now, look at the outer circle. Most people in our culture do not feel safe enough to share their inner workings, and thus they are careful about what they say. They selectively share. I think a foolish example of this is to share only nice things and keep awkward or negative things hidden. Sometimes this is called being polite.

While this may work with people at work, or with strangers, selective sharing in a long-term relationship is a problem. The secrets will surface. Thus, there will be Big Surprises, and with those surprises, there will often be a sense of betrayal.

But Big Surprises will scare people into to a state of unsafety, apprehension, and tension. This is nowhere more clear than in a marriage when an affair becomes public. At that moment, the burden of the unknown and unshared material becomes enormous. People, particularly the affaired-against-partner start asking many questions. They have become fearful of all that unknown stuff. The questions go on and on.

I see this as an invitation to shift from the outer circle to the inner circle.

As to this debate: The bottom line for me is the following: all people never see anything the same way. All people disagree, at some level, all the time, and all people make sense all of the time. So your view is true to you (at this time) and my view is my best (at this time).

[This message edited by Brewbrew at 2:58 PM, Sunday, June 21st]

Just repackaged unmet needs.

We’ve seen it and heard it before.

Start your own thread if you want to really talk about this. Stop arguing this tired victim blaming nonsense on the thread of a man who is in real time feeling the anguish of the unyielding realities of being betrayed.

Brewbrew, I am going to be very direct because I think this keeps getting dressed up in language that sounds thoughtful while landing in the same place.

I reject the premise.

I am not responsible for my wife’s affairs. I am not responsible for her lies. I am not responsible for her choosing secrecy over honesty, another man over her husband, and self-protection over my reality. Especially in my case where she began only a year into our relationship.

I can be responsible for my side of the marriage without being responsible for her betrayal. Those are not the same thing.

If she felt unsafe, unhappy, unheard, lonely, sexually conflicted, resentful, or misunderstood, those were marriage issues. Marriage issues can be addressed through honesty, counseling, separation, divorce, conflict, vulnerability, or even saying, "I cannot stay in this marriage." What they do not require is deception. What they do not require is an affair. What they do not require is letting your spouse keep living inside a reality you know is false for an 18 year relationship.

That is the distinction you keep blurring, and poorly I may add.

You keep asking whether I want to know who my wife is. Yes. I do. That is exactly why I am looking at what she actually did, not just what she says she felt while doing it. Who someone is cannot be separated from the choices they make when honesty becomes uncomfortable.

I am not avoiding her "why." I am refusing to let her "why" become my indictment.

There is a difference between understanding a person and absorbing blame for them, between curiosity and self-erasure. There is a difference between examining a marriage and pretending betrayal was the natural outcome of a shared dynamic, it was unequivocally not.

You also keep framing my refusal to accept blame as victimhood, ego, superiority, or self-protection. I disagree. Sometimes self-protection is appropriate. Sometimes refusing to carry someone else’s moral failure is not weakness. Sometimes it is the first sane thing a betrayed spouse does after being lied to for years.

The original point of this thread was not that betrayed spouses are perfect. I have never claimed to be perfect. The point was that betrayed spouses often had pain, loneliness, rejection, unmet needs, resentment, temptation, and opportunity too, yet many of us did not cheat.It is not virtue signalling to say fidelity required something from us. It is not superiority to say betrayal required something from them, and that is a deficit.

Marriage problems are shared.

Affairs are chosen.

Those two truths can exist at the same time, and reconciliation, if it is ever real, cannot be built by confusing them.

And you may feel you are now "safe" but I strongly disagree.

@Brewbrew

You strike me as someone who hasn't read very deeply on this topic. That's ok. We all need to start somewhere. To be clear, are you ruling out the very possibility that a couple can have a perfect marriage but one spouse could be a sociopathic cake eater?

Let’s look at this logically. Your premise relies on a causal link: unmet needs or dodgy marriage dynamics lead to an affair. If that link is an absolute rule, it must hold true across all variables. But it fails under basic scrutiny because it completely airbrushes individual pathology and character deficits out of the equation. By framing every affair as a symptom of a shared relational fracture, you create a massive blind spot for the classic "cake eater"—a person who is entirely satisfied with their marriage, fancies their spouse, enjoys their life, but chooses to cheat simply because they value their own entitlement over their partner's safety.

To demonstrate why your logic collapses under its own weight, imagine a couple, Person A and Person B. Both are trapped in the exact same dreary marriage. Both experience the exact same dry spells, the same lack of intimacy, and the same mind-numbing periods of feeling invisible. Person A copes with this shared unhappiness by going to the gym, throwing themselves into work, or trying to initiate difficult conversations. Person B copes by embarking on a secret, multi-year relationship with a coworker, funding weekend trysts out of a hidden Barclays account, and lying straight to Person A’s face over dinner. If the marriage dynamic is the root cause of the behavior, why did the exact same dynamic produce constructive coping mechanisms in Person A, but destructive, deceptive mechanisms in Person B? The marriage dynamic is merely the weather. The affair is the choice. You cannot blame the British climate for the fact that your house has a leaky roof because you refused to fix it

Let us test your theory further by removing the variable of marital unhappiness entirely. Imagine a marriage that scores a perfect ten out of ten on every conceivable metric. The communication is open, the sex life is cracking, both partners feel deeply cherished, and there are absolutely zero unmet needs. Now, imagine one spouse is offered an opportunity to have a risk-free, highly thrilling sexual encounter while away on a business trip in Manchester. They know their spouse is brilliant, but they decide, "I love my life, but I fancy this extra bit of fun too, and I am clever enough to never get caught." They cheat. If you claim that all affairs are born from marital deficits, how do you explain this? If you claim this scenario is impossible, you are denying the existence of basic human greed, entitlement, and thrill-seeking. If you admit it is possible, then you must admit that an affair can be driven 100% by internal character deficits, rendering the state of the marriage entirely irrelevant to the act of betrayal.

When you insist on treating an affair as a shared marital symptom, you fall into a couple of glaring logical traps. First, you confuse vulnerability with causality. A dry spell or a communication gap can make a marriage vulnerable to stress. But vulnerability is not causality. Leaving your front door unlocked makes your house vulnerable to a break-in. It does not cause the burglary. The burglary is caused exclusively by the thief who sees an opportunity and chooses to nick your telly. Blaming the marriage for an affair is equivalent to telling the homeowner, "Well, if you had a better alarm system, he wouldn't have pinched your things." It shifts the moral agency from the perpetrator to the victim, which is a bit rich.

Second, you completely ignore individual pathology. You assume every cheater is a fundamentally well-adjusted person merely reacting poorly to a bad environment. This completely discounts traits like narcissism, low empathy, or a pathological need for external validation that no single spouse could ever hope to fill. A cake eater doesn't cheat because they are starving; they cheat because they are a glutton. They want the stability, history, and social status of a dedicated spouse plus the novel dopamine hit of a secret fantasy life.

If a spouse is a cake eater, no amount of marital perfection will stop them, because the variable isn't the marriage—it’s their character. Blurring the line between shared marital problems and individual choices doesn't make your argument look nuanced, Brewbrew. It just makes it look like you are deeply uncomfortable with the reality of individual human malice and actual accountability

So I ask again, why didnt your partner cheat on you? Were they just morally superior?

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 6:17 PM, Sunday, June 21st]