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Astudentoflife, thanks for the 2x4. “I guess we are not so special huh?” You’re right. I didn’t mean to be insulting when I kept trying to say my situation is different. You see, I’ve had this conversation with BH many times. I would mention him hitting me, and he would get defensive and tell me that I don’t know real abuse, that real abusive people would do serious damage that people go to the hospital for. I never even knew of verbal abuse before; I used to think abuse is physical only. BH would get very sad when he thinks about himself as an abusive person, and I would feel bad for saying anything about it in the first place. I was shocked the first time he slapped me. He used to tell me that he would NEVER hit me. But then he did. After listening to his explanation of why he did, that he did it because he loves me, I started to see it as acceptable because it’s “special” and not abuse. When I step outside of myself and imagine if my daughter was in such a relationship, I would tell her to leave after the FIRST slap. How can I see this as normal for ME? I guess I see that I really have been making excuses for him. He is a good guy, but he is abusive. I need to stop thinking of him as a child that needs a bunch of excuses.

I used to be afraid of him, and that feeling grew after he started getting physical, however light it was. In the aftermath of Dday I started telling myself that it’s all in my head, that there’s something wrong with ME to feel that way, that I just didn’t understand his intentions. The responses I’ve been getting is a shocking wake up call. Maybe it’s not all me, that I see things wrong. Maybe I felt afraid because his behavior MADE me afraid. I started hitting him back sometimes when he used to slap me. When I talk about him hitting me he would say that I hit him too, that it wasn’t just him. I know it was wrong for me to hit him, but sometimes I got fed up with him slapping me and wanted to fight back. He said I did more damage to him than he ever did me, because I hit him harder, that he never used all this strength and if he did my face would be broken by now. He admits now that it was wrong. I can see that it’s a very unhealthy way to work thru problems. I can see that he needs to change too if we want our marriage to work.

It’s hard for me to justify leaving right now. He’s stable, hasn’t hit me since a few days after Dday three months ago. He also stopped being verbally abusive mostly. I know the verbal part could start again easily. I am reading a book that talks about how to respond to change myself at least. I feel that he gets it too and wants to change. He needs me and I want to be there for him. I want to see if we can make our relationship a more healthy one.

ba: i wish i had the magic words to say that you could "see" what the rest of us do "see" quite clearly..

i am glad that you are still actively seeking a new ic for him....please don't give up on this...

as for you...please please do yourself and your precious child a huge service and get yourself to an ic asap...work on you with someone who is a professional....

maybe the professional person will get through to you what the rest of cannot...

i will pray for you and your child and even your husband, that you may all find what you need to heal from this, and that he learns how to treat the mother of his child with respect and dignity...

we teach people how to treat us every single day...so make sure you teach him everyday how you should be treated...

kkkkk

(((ba)))

It’s hard for me to justify leaving right now. He’s stable, hasn’t hit me since a few days after Dday three months ago. He also stopped being verbally abusive mostly

I guess the fucking the other women and prostitutes was just him being a good husband, then.

Look, I can see you are powerless to get out of this cycle and it is so frustrating to read your hogwash because it is all wrong. Your head is twisted around backwards and you can't see it.

I am not nice and thoughtful like some of the wonderful people on here. But I am blunt and honest.

Your life is going to suck with this man. He is toxic. You with him are toxic. Unless There is seriously some professional help, you will not make it.

I am not going to wish you good luck. You are completely screwed if you stay with this loser sociopath who is manipulating the fucking hell out of you. Sad sad sad. But I know you will stay because you have not hit bottom with him yet.

You never answered my question. Can you talk to your parents, siblings, friend, doctor, priest about him?

BA...

My gosh, what has life taught you? ...

I'm so glad you are here. There's so much you will learn and need to learn. I hope you can at least recognize you are basically in your "infancy" as far as learning about relationships and what they are supposed to be. We all have much to learn.

I can see we aren't going to persuade you to believe us about the extremity of your situation. I'm going to say again, keep an open mind and learn all that is learnable. If six months from now you are feeling and thinking the same as you are now, then you would have wasted that time and things will undoubtably be worse. But I suspect you will develope a different perspective.

I know of a few women who have been mentally and physically abused. (about 10 slaps is horrible BA - it doesn't even really matter that it was only slapping and not as hard as he could.) I could never understand why a woman would ever stay after the second hit. But... I see it happen over and over. My xww was very cruel to me and now I can't understand why I stayed so long. I thought my situation was different! No one knew what it was like in my shoes. They didn't see the good in her that I saw - and there truly is good in her. I kept waiting for the bad times to end and the good times to begin. I knew they were close. What if I gave up just before the good times finally arrived?

Do any of those previous 3 or 4 sentences ring a bell with you? I'd bet a million bucks that they do.

I think I understand a little about why the abused stay. I stayed. I kept hoping the woman I loved would return and love me like I loved her. I thought one day she'd understand how much I really loved her and everything would be ok.

It turns out the woman I loved so much just wasn't there anymore. She had turned into something different. There is a possibility that she never was the person who I thought she was in the first place.

Learn, BA, learn quickly. Try to accept the idea that you can have a loving, trusting, caring relationship of equals. It's possible. Even probable if you do this right.

This "punishment" you have been absorbing... is most appallingly uncool.

Don't be fooled or lulled into a false sense of security because of a few good days and heartfelt talks. This person has been very bad to you. At the least, HE is going to have to deal with YOUR resentment in the pretty near future. Trust me on that one.

It’s hard for me to justify leaving right now. He’s stable, hasn’t hit me since a few days after Dday three months ago. He also stopped being verbally abusive mostly.

Sweetie, this is called the "honeymoon phase" of the abuse cycle, and I'm sure you've been there before even if you didn't have the words for it. It lasts until the tension builds up again and he "lets off steam" by abusing you again. And it will happen again. I'm going to say that one more time: It will happen again..

I know how much hope you have right now, and my heart aches for you because I've been there too.

Please, please listen when everyone tells you that you should leave. If and only if your H gets help should you return. Because you are in the middle of this situation, it is hard for you to see it for what it is so I really hope that you decide to trust the judgment of those who aren't fogged by the spell that abuse casts over its victim.

I'm backing off your thread now because it is just too hard for me to read.

Mrs Panda, talking to my parents about him is not helpful. I told them about my affair, but they are just mad at him for not getting over it and forgiving me completely right away. They already don't like him without knowing anything about the abuse. They help take care of DD sometimes and I don't want to make the tension between them and BH any worse than it already is. I am not religious, and haven't talked to friends about anything other than the affair I shared it with my best friend. I feel this is private matter and don't want to complicate it with having a bunch of people involved.

Teacherman, your post struck a cord. The paragraph about waiting for the good times to come is exactly what I'd been thinking. I feel like it's here. Actually BH and I have had that conversation a few times. He feels there's a lot in the marriage he's unhappy with, but always thought we could work it out and the good times are just around the corner, that he could be better and I could be better. He's very disappointed that I gave up on our M by having an affair. He feels it overshadows everything he does and he's having a hard time dealing with the feeling of being cheated years of his life.

I'm indeed in the "infancy" stage in regard to relationships. My childishness is what's frustrated BH most in our M. He's the first person I dated so I am VERY naive about what's normal in a relationship. That naivety is a big part of why I fell into A. I'm learning a lot about what's acceptable and what's not lately. No, I'm not leaving now, but I fully intend to make sure he does treat me respectably from now on. If the abusive behaviors start up again, I WILL leave. There's no doubt of that.

You know, delusion is like the water fish swim in: you are surrounded and permeated by it, and therefore it is invisible to you. That's where the perspective of others is especially valuable. Ever read about Stockholm Syndrome? You are in deep water this very moment, and though you have grown quite used to being there, you are not a fish, and you will drown if you stay where you are.

If BH's occasional hitting and occasional screwing of whores and his occasional spewing of contemptuous vitriol are OK, then how is it that your A is so unforgivable? I mean, you and xOM only talked a lot and hugged and had a little light sex every now and then, right?

Turn it around like that, and hopefully you see how ridiculous this kind of argument is. Abuse is abuse. Cheating is cheating. It's always serious.

Interestingly, people and animals can learn to tolerate regular physical abuse. It's random shocks that drive them to insanity. Waking up each day wondering what the emotional weather will be like, wondering when the next blow will fall, walking around on eggshells--that's no kind of life.

That's the sick magic of "occasional" abuse: you're always off balance because you don't know what to expect. You're so grateful for a respite that even marginally civil treatment feels like downright worship, not merely the basic human consideration most people expect and deserve every day. And of course your desire to preserve and extend the truce is just another lever of control for the abuser to exploit.

I hope you stay and keep on reading, and keep on challenging your own perceptions about the state of this marriage.

Silencio, I have to say, that's a very insightful post. It's like putting glasses on a near sighted person for the first time. I'll have to think more about your points before I respond. Thanks.

BA,

((hugs))

Secondly, this story and all your follow up info is too weird for color tv. I'm beginning to wonder if it's true, as surely, SURELY someone would not put up with this type of treatment. Let me summarize:

1) this man verbally/emotionally and physically abused you in the past BEFORE learning of the affair, so there is a history of abuse. Yes, being called worthless IS abuse. Being slapped/hit/pinched/etc. IS abuse, regardless of how many times it happens per year & irrespective of whether or not the abuse was damaging enough to, say, hospitalize you.

2) this man is having revenge affairs and making you (CONTROL) participate- IN. SEX. WITH. HOOKERS. Have you had yourself tested?

3) you stated your parents ALREADY didn't like your husband before they found out about his actions. That sends up a big red flag for me, which leads me to:

4) ALL OF THE PEOPLE ON THIS MESSAGE BOARD, EVEN SOME BSs (including myself) MAINTAIN THAT WHAT YOU'RE EXPERIENCING IS ABUSE AND UNACCEPTABLE. Yet you continue to take up for him, make excuses for him, "he only hits me cuz he loves me" business. I am really scared for you.

Please, PLEASE, if you do not care enough about YOURSELF to get out of this situation, CARE ENOUGH ABOUT YOUR DAUGHTER. She is a gift and is innocent of the mess the 2 "adults" in her life make around her.

And you might not think so, but she is learning from you EVERY MINUTE, and you are showing her that it is okay to be stomped on by people, as long as they're only doing it because they "love" you.

Please.

[This message edited by abbycadabby at 3:53 PM, September 30th (Thursday)]

There was this awful movie with Pierce Brosnan called Dante's Peak. In it he told this story.

If a frog were to be dropped into boiling water, it will hop out and get away from that terrible predicament. However, if you put the frog in cool water and slowly heat it to boiling, the frog, not seeing it's peril, will stay in the water until it boils to death.

So many of us are like the frog in the slowly warming water. Our lives deteriorate slowly and then eventually we're in a terrible place.

I wish I'd said this, but I don't know who to credit...

When the pain of staying the same is worse than the pain of change, then we'll change.

I'm not sure if it's completely correct, but I like it.

abbycadabby, unfortunately it's all true. 2) yes, I did have myself tested and good thing it's nothing. I do know what I accept directly teaches what DD thinks as acceptable. I will not tolerate abusive behavior from BH from now on.

Thanks Silencio and Teacherman for the analogies. I understand the danger of staying in a toxic situation. My question is what if it IS changing? I caused him so much pain and he's suffering the loss every day. How can I ignore it and not make amends?

I hope that as a BS I'm allowed to post here. I'm sorry to hear you're in this situation and understand wanting to do anything in order to make things better for the person you hurt - but I have to ask something. You say

My question is what if it IS changing? I caused him so much pain and he's suffering the loss every day. How can I ignore it and not make amends?

And I would reply, quite simply - you put your daughter's needs first.

You're in a really crummy position right now. (((ba)))

[This message edited by carnelian at 9:57 AM, October 2nd (Saturday)]

Burnt,

Everything you wrote here

"abbycadabby, unfortunately it's all true. 2) yes, I did have myself tested and good thing it's nothing. I do know what I accept directly teaches what DD thinks as acceptable. I will not tolerate abusive behavior from BH from now on.

Thanks Silencio and Teacherman for the analogies. I understand the danger of staying in a toxic situation. My question is what if it IS changing? I caused him so much pain and he's suffering the loss every day. How can I ignore it and not make amends?"

is wonderful!

Do not ever accept abuse again! No one should.

What if it's changing? You'll know it's changing when you're not on the rollercoaster anymore. If he ever sees another woman, if he ever degrades or humiliates you - especially in front of your daughter - and if he ever physically intimidates you or hits you, then nothing is changing.

He can't "ease" out of doing that. These things are cold turkey "it stops now" issues. In a loving, non-confrontational way, you explain that you love him more than anything. You would rather die that hurt him like this again. (I wanted to hear that sooo badly from my xww.) You say you know how you've hurt him and that you get that the hurt is so deep that you can never really understand, but you know it's there and you know the pain he's feeling from the affair is your fault. (In other words, take responsibility for the affair. Let him know you love him and it will never be a issue again.) Tell him "You know more than anyone that I've been willing to do anything, and take any abuse you've sent my way because I know you're in pain, and I know I caused that. I'm very glad you aren't doing as much anymore because it was making me die inside.

I will do anything it takes to heal our family. I will do anything to make amends. I love you so much and I will do anything for as long as it takes because you are a good man and you are worth it to me.

I will fight with all I am for this good man you are. But I need my good man back. I'm working on becoming the best wife and mother I can be. I can't do this for you if you are seeing other women, degrading me, disrespecting me in front of and to our daughter. You have to stop this before I can do any more for us.

If you do this, I will love you every minute like you want to be loved for as long as I live. If you can't do this, then we need to become partners to be the best most loving parents we can be and then start moving on with our own lives separately.

Know that I understand what I've done. I'm so sorry. I'll always regret it. You didn't deserve it. If you chose for us to move on separately I will understand. I will be fair in everything. Neither I nor anyone in my family will ever say a bad word about you in front of our daughter. If in the future you change your mind about us I hope you'll tell me.

When you are ready, that or something like it is what you should say. Maybe write it down yourself and hand it to him - ask him to read it and stay right there. Say everything you need to say. It seems like writing stuff down makes it easier to get it all out without things turning into an argument.

And Burnt, if he doesn't agree to stop what he's doing... you two are better off apart. Both of you would be. Look at what he would be saying if he won't do it. He'd be saying "I'm going to see other women. I'm going to humiliate you. I'm going to hit you. I'm going to do it even though you've asked me not to and you said it made you want to die."

Be prepared for either response. Yes, he agrees, or no he doesn't. If he agrees, then .. well there's a lot of healing to do. If he does not, then there's a lot of work to do.

He will respect you for making the stand. And more importantly, you will begin to respect yourself. I think at this point you have no self respect. It has been taken from you. You can't control him and his choices, but you absolutely can control you, your choices, and what it is that you will allow in your life.

I'm an idiot. BH is still seeing other women and tells me it's entirely my fault. I asked him wasn't he lying when he said we would try to work it out a few days ago. He said he told me from DDay that he doesn't know where his mind is at from day to day, and he did mean it for the moment he told me that we could try, but he said his mind is unreliable now and I should have known not to believe any promises. He's furious that I would even bring the other women issue up, saying we're not married anymore because he took his ring off. He repeated that only my cheating mattered, that what I am doing to apologize makes no difference. It's either I am a faithful woman or I am not, and my actions proved that I am not. He said I'm playing mind games with him by drawing moral equivalency between his screwing other women and my cheating, that I am just a lowly s**t and trying to do anything to make myself feel better about myself. That's so far from the truth! I am a person and still leagally married to him, and this hurts me! Do I not have a right to feel hurt because I cheated? BH obviously thinks so. I am so numb. He said by bringing this up I'm distancing myself from him even more. How can I be distancing myself more when he's telling me we're done? I am so confused. I feel like dying inside. I don't see any options but leave at this point. All my heartfelt apologies are met with nothing but scorn. I understand that I hurt him beyond anything I can imagine, but he doesn't believe any of my apologies, and is acting with the believe that I'm continueing to be nothing but a total evil b**ch.

I'm so sorry burnt...this is what all of us were afraid of...the continuing abusive cycle. It's already begun with the belittling, name calling, ect...It's going to get worse...he will get physical again...and he'll probably demand some sort of sexually abusive situation again too...

It's not gonna stop till you say so. You need to decide whether you and your DD are going to continue living like this..

I think I can say everyone who is keeping track of your situation is VERY fearful for yours and your DD's safety...your lives are in danger. You need to accept this and find a safe place to go.

We are all here to help you...

(((burnt)))

You do indeed have a right to be hurt by his actions.

Feelings are feelings. They aren't right or wrong. If you feel it, it is valid.

Furthermore, BA, what he is doing is wrong. It is cheating. You don't cease to be married simply because you took off your wedding ring.

He's playing and manipulating you. Right now he's getting off on the feeling of control.

I think you're right. At this point you need to leave. Neither of you will be able to heal from this while you're still living together.

From what you've said he's not trying to heal.

I am so sorry that you're dealing with this, but please take care of yourself and your daughter. She needs you far more than he does at this point.

He said by bringing this up I'm distancing myself from him even more.

Utter bulshit

Why don't you suggest S, and see if that wakes him up a bit? His actions are getting more problematic and worse than your A. If you want to rebuild your M into a healthy one, you have to start acting strong and firm. I recognize your guilt over your A is hindering your thoughts, but you cannot let this go on for the sake of your kids and even for his sake. He is acting very much like a vengeful child. You two must grow up to act like adults. Even though your A is what started this, if he is unwilling to R, then you have no choice but to D or at least S.

You gave him his chance, and he proved everyone here right.

There's no question now that you have to get away from him, at least for a long while.

I was really hoping that his history of stopping drug use "cold turkey" might give hope for him stopping this abuse, but his actions prove that is not true at all.

You have to leave now or else he will never change and you will be in danger.

I'm so sorry for this. You have been strong and it did not help. There is nothing you can do now except leave.

Burnt - Are you surprised that he broke his promise?