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the fallout was intense, but what I had to say to her I said it last night. I told her she has no remorse for the pain she had caused me, and I know her lies, I finally shut her up when I told her that she had only gave me one one line text "I ended it last night" to convince me that she's willing to work with me, and yet her so called "NC" e-mail to the OM contains lines like "this is not the end", "I stay faithful..until you", "forever yours". I confronted her on all that.

everyone is right on the money, she didn't(or maybe she did) digest my words when I told her "it's the pain cause by the two of you", me and other BS are the victims. She wasn't able to put herself in her shoes. She repeatedly told me that I had no rights to destroy their lives and what I did to that poor girl was unforgivable. And she told me "it's done, it's over". We ended our conversation by separating ourselves to cool down.

It might've been the overwhelming emotions that the both of us were experiencing. she returned to bed, I embraced her and told her that I love her and pretty much spilling my guts out, she opened up to me with tears and told me she loves me too and she's truly sorry for what she had done. It was a moment I wish time will stop for. We did not have sex, we cuddled til morning and I decided to take a sickday from work and spend alone time with her while our daughter is in school.

now it's the morning, wife back in her unapproachable angry self, daughter got sick and vomited all over right before leaving for school so she's staying home too. real bad timing.

thank you for all the thoughts and prayers.

ps. what is "180"?

[This message edited by rightbeforebday at 7:58 AM, November 29th (Monday)]

rightbefore - I thought about your story all weekend and was wondering about you.

It sounds like your wife is still in the "fog" or illusion that the affair is a good place to be - this will take some time. As heart breaking as it is for us to watch and go through it is very common. As I stated before it took my H several attempts at NC before it finally stuck. Watching him come out of the fog...wow...what a difference. That is when I saw true remorse and shame.

180 - there is an article in the healing library on this. I personally never did it, and doubt that I would have been successful at doing it anyways. I will try to find the link for you. It may be the best thing you can do in this situation since your wife is basically blaming you for the other BS's pain.

Your wife is not realizing SHE is the OW. SHE and her AP put you and his wife in this immense amount of pain. Ask your wife, if you were having an affair and possibly unprotected sex with someone else wouldn't she want to be told? They put you and his wife in danger...literally.

ETA - the OW my H was texting was not married or in a committed relationship so I had no one to tell, however he was FURIOUS when I contacted the OW myself. He was defending her and even suggested she had nothing to do with this. Believe me, all WS's follow the same handbook. It's like they read a manual before they do this crap to us.

[This message edited by Kamkim at 8:05 AM, November 29th (Monday)]

Q: What is 180 and how does it work? Submitted by Making It

A: 180 is a list of behaviors from Michelle Wiener Davis, the author of Divorce Busting, that will help your spouse to see you moving forward as a healthy person. I would highly suggest that any new BS begin these behaviors as soon as possible. I am convinced that if I had implemented them, I would still be married. In retrospect, I did everything besides 180. I looked pathetic. No one wants to be perceived as pathetic. 180 makes you look strong. Strong is attractive. (Making it)

So here's the list:

Don't pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.

No frequent phone calls.

Don't point out "good points" in marriage.

Don't follow her/him around the house.

Don't encourage or initiate discussion about the future.

Don't ask for help from the family members of your WS.

Don't ask for reassurances.

Don't buy or give gifts.

Don't schedule dates together.

Don't keep saying, "I Love You!" Because if you have a brain in your head, he/she is at this particular moment, not very loveable.

Do more then act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life!

Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.

Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy!

When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don't push any issue? No matter how much you want to!

If you're in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested.

Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that "they (the WS)" are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack thee of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life? with out them!

Don't be nasty, angry or even cold - Just pull yourself back. Don't always be so available? for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you're missing.

No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment? Make yourself be someone they would want to be around. Not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.

All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation!

Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control? YOURSELF!

Don't be overly enthusiastic.

Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all!

Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you? HEAR what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more!

Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.

Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil.

Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.

Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write.

Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy.

Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It's not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don't care!

Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior.

Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It "ain't over till it's over!"

Do not backslide from your hard earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message.

When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person. This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don't work out with the OM/OW." (Poodlepapa)

rightbeforebday, sorry to see that you are hurting.

If you click on "The Healing Library" link on the left, you will see a general FAQ about usernames, posts, etc. The most important FAQ, in my view, though, is easy to overlook here. It took me a while to find it but it was critical to my recent improvement.

Once you click on the "The Healing Library" link, you will see this at the top of the screen:

"Frequently Asked Questions

Frequently Asked Questions | Abbreviations | Articles | Books | Links

Also please see the BS FAQ, WS FAQ and the FAQ: From the Betrayed Spouse for the Former Wayward Spouse."

Click on the BS FAQ. This is one of the most useful pages I have found on the site. It addresses so much, not just a 180 plan of action, but also a lot of the common struggles faced by a BS. This was a tremendous resource to help me stop focusing on WS and instead focus on myself and start to understand what I am going through.

Good luck!

What YOU did to that poor woman was unforgivable?

She was the one fucking her husband.

180 her ass. She is not sorry.

She repeatedly told me that I had no rights to destroy their lives and what I did to that poor girl was unforgivable.

rightbeforebday, this is blameshifting at it's worst. Please do not, for one second, let your wife put ANY doubts into your head about you alerting the OM's wife about their affair. The pain the OM's betrayed wife is in, can, like your own pain, be lain totally at the feet of OM and your WW. This is 100% THEIR fault. She just refuses to see it, and it's easier for her to blame you for it.

((rightbeforebday))

Wow... what YOU did? Really? Don't take her crap, hon. Really... 180. I know it's hard to do, but she needs a wake-up call! My WH tried blaming me for his A... said anything he could to justify his behavior, and shifted the blame to me in any way that he could. You did a really great thing by exposing the A to the other BS. I WISH, how I WISH I would have done the same. We are in R, but the poor BS of MOW has no idea that she is lying to him... she posts on FB how great her husband is, and she betrayed him!

I can tell you this, after months, we finally had the breakthrough we needed. My WH (or FWH) finally "gets it" and is taking FULL responsibility for the A, for his actions, and choices, and in his words, he is now able to "own it". There IS hope... but only if your WW is willing to work for it.

Rightbefore,

It is obvious in your posts how much you love your wife.

she returned to bed, I embraced her and told her that I love her and pretty much spilling my guts out, she opened up to me with tears and told me she loves me too and she's truly sorry for what she had done. It was a moment I wish time will stop for. We did not have sex, we cuddled til morning and I decided to take a sickday from work and spend alone time with her while our daughter is in school.

I remember acting and feeling the same exact way.

But be careful. She still needs to be treated with tough love. Exposing the affair was just the first step; she still has to learn to BELIEVE that you are willing to leave this relationship. But you will stay if she truly wants to R.

But that means HONESTY, TRANSPARENCY, and REMORSE.

The honesty isn't there yet, nor the transparency, nor the remorse. I am not saying that she won't start with these things, but she hasn't yet. One teary eyed, emotional night doesn't cut it.

I am only saying this because I did the exact WRONG things at this juncture. I clung on to the "I love yous" and the tears from my WW and relented. I should have stayed on the hard line path. I didn't and she slipped right back into her wayward ways. DO NOT MAKE THIS MISTAKE, PLEASE.

Being resolute is by far the best chance of saving your marriage, hands down. I've mentioned before that I have never seen an experience here on SI when the betrayed made any progress by being overly polite and the best spouse they can be. It doesn't process that way in a wayward's mind. It sucks, but it is true.

Stand your ground; work on yourself. The best chance of having your WW see reality is to give her a REAL dose of reality. Good Luck.

I am so sorry for what you are going through. Just keep saying to yourself, this is not your fault. My WH reconnected with an old HS girlfriend on FB and carried on an 11 month A. (EA and PA). It sucks.

Before I found this site, I demanded that WH end the relationship and all contact with OW. WH said he owed it to OW to end it face to face. It was a crock of shit. It took 4 months to go NC, in that time I had to deal with TT, really ridiculous fog speak, the A going underground, living in limbo, a second D-Day. Finally, when WH realized I was preparing myself to leave him, he snapped right out of the fog, sent the NC email while I watched, doesn't like my snooping but as he said I didn't leave you any other option. and Finally we have remorse.

Detach and 180. You won't always succeed, some days are better than others. Trying to comfort her only feeds her drama and fantasy. I have three children. We have attempted to shield our kids from what he has done. but our 4 year old knew I was sad and knew it was something Daddy did.

Keep posting. This is an amazing support system. You will get through this. Your D-Day is so recent, consulting a lawyer does not mean the M is over, separating to protect yourself does not mean the M is over. Living in limbo is hell. Sometimes it takes a pretty big gesture on BS part to knock the stupid out of WS.

Rightbefore:

Kudos for doing what you've done so far in telling the OM's wife.

But you're still not done, my friend. Nowhere close. Your wife is still not in your camp, regardless of your little emotional session last night. Didn't you see how quickly your wife reverted back to blameshifting, angry mode the next morning.

Please listen to what we are telling you. The 180 is the most powerful tool in your arsenal.

I'll repeat what I said in my last post to you, before the shit hit the fan. Your wife is a proven liar and full of crap. Do not tell your wife how much you love her in an emotional way, if you can possibly avoid it. Jesus, we KNOW you love her, or you wouldn't even be here, and you wouldn't be wanting to try to save your marriage. She's also the mother of your precious daughter. Trust me, we get it.

Your wife has got to feel constant negative consequences with every act of deceit and disrespect. Every act. You have got to be powerful and brutally consistent.

In short, your wife has got to first feel real FEAR and real SHAME. Please try to avoid overt displays of love and emotion right now. Your wife put this POSOM above you and your family, and perhaps still does.

Never forget that.

Here's hoping for some major fog reduction in the days ahead. And remember, the poster who said that if doing what EVERY betrayed spouse has an absolute responsibility (not just right) to do--informing the other betrayed spouse--is a dealbreaker for your lying, cheating wife, then you didn't have a marriage worth saving in the first place.

We are not interested in sabotaging your marriage when we give you advice. We are committed to giving you advice that WORKS based on an unbelievable shared body of experience.

Take care of you and your daughter. Tough love is the only thing that has a chance of working in your situation.

I totally agree with FatherFirst... My WH would give me that sad, pathetic look and tell me, "Baby, I do love you. I always have." I would look at him with fire in my eyes, use a freezing cold tone laced with cynicism, and simply say, "Well, you certainly haven't proven you do, and you certainly weren't thinking about how much you love me. Obviously I love you, too, or I would have been out the door with our daughter the moment I found out." It took a long time for me to give him an emotional I love you. For months it was an, " I love you, that's why I'm not gone." kind of response.

It definitely shook him up, and helped with defogging.

She is selfish and entitled. Please stop feeling sorry for her and quit chasing her!!

My XWH tried to blame me by telling me I put him in line of danger by telling MOW's husband. Because husband may have tried to harm him. What a self-absorbed A**! So his and her actions had nothing to do with it.

Then he proceeded to say how dumb MOW's husband is since he is believing his wife's denial of affair over me.

I guess they must have thought they were both so clever. They both found their soulmates.They sure did.

The only thing is, they did not have enough sense to understand MOW must be master liar to get husband to believ I was the liar. They both were too cowardly to take their love and live their dreams together. NOone had kids.

But financially they were using the both of us in order to keep lifestyles. But as soon as they were ready, they were planning to dump us and go live happily ever after. That did NOT happen. They are both pathetic and selfish people who will never be happy with Real life partners. Just fantasy relationships that can only be created through an affair.

Dear Rightbefore,

Just hang in there, this is the hardest part. You have most likely ended the A by telling the OM's BW. Great job! That gives the best chance for your marriage to survive.

wife back in her unapproachable angry self

This is typical fog behavior. My FWH screamed and yelled at me, and as is often true, he was taking out his anger at himself on me. Now is time for you to 180 her, and for you to be taking care of yourself and your daughter. What reason does she have to be angry at you? For telling the OM? If she really and truly wants your M to survive, then your doing so did her a favor. And by the way, that is a pathetic excuse for a no contact letter. She should write another one, approved by you, with no emotion in it whatsoever, for example, "what we did was wrong and I am ending it, do not want any contact with you every again." Simple, concise, firm and non-negotiable.

I am so sorry for your pain, I hope you are coping.

thanks for all the advice.

the 180 seems like something I can accomplish, I've done similar things back in my younger dating days.

This is a long message, but please try to read it carefully and analyse it if you are willing to help.

crazy as it sounds, I'm no religious fanatics but I did found my faith back in God and he had given me comfort to stay calm and keep my sanity throught out this ordeal. It's a great "tool" for me to stay strong and think clearly.

On Monday I called in sick and stayed home, even with my daughter present, me and my wife still got a lot of dialoges done. My daughter got to watch cartoons ALL DAY, and she was unaware of her parents' intense but calm conversation.

Perhaps I really did broke the A by exposing the truth to the OM's BS. Her walking out the night before, her obvious signs of desperation and brief outburst of anger. My wife's behavior in the morning was exactly what some of you described as "in the fog", but eventually she broke it down and told me everything about the affair, about him, his job, his girl friend(not wife) and why she lied about that, and how the affair started as friendship and how the one time sexual encounter got out of hand(still not in details I seek). Of course I listened cautiously and skeptically).

I was in no mood to ask her where did they fucked and on what date and time of day did they fucked. Appearantly at the moment I didnt' really care about that anymore. She was obviously distraught by the fact that the other BS found out, and she was openly displaying her concerns about the well beings of OM and his BS and what might happen between the two of them and what they might do(suicide, seperation...etc). As hard as it was for me to see that she was more concerned about them rather than me, I kept my cool and continued listening because I felt she might finally opening up to me. She had calmed down and told me that she understood why I contacted OM's BS.

During our conversation, although at times it seems like she wanted me to admit to what I did to that poor poor was wrong, I did NOT for once accept the blame and I constantly reminded her what she(my WW) and OM did to her(OM's BS) was wrong. She continued on discribing to me how the other BS is NOT married to the OM but they have a long term relationship(6 years). And she explained why she lied to me about them being married just so I wouldn't try to contact them....(my wife knew me well, I'm a gentle soul who wouldn't hurt someone because I myself is hurt, I made the contact based on EVERYONE'S advice in this forum). It really did caught her by surprise that I reached out to the OM's BS.

She continued to explain to me that the OM carries a medical condition that's not curable and his doctor gives him 15 years before he hits the wheel chair("Is that the reason you provided yourself to him as a fuck toy?" thought myself. Thanks to 180 technique I did not speak my thoughts). She discribed to me how he's dedicted 10 years for his job and he's given 60 days to find a new one right now, she also discribed his girlfriend who knows about his medical condition but willingly staying with him for love. My wife was gravely concern about him commiting suicide, concern about if she would leave him, and what he would do if she does. She was openly honest with me about her concern for him, and she promised me she won't contact him. And begged me not to contact them to further damaged them. (Honestly, I don't give a fuck about them, but I kept my head up high and kept my cool and continued listening). I told my wife I did what I did ONLY to break the affair because what she claimed she did was not enough for me to be convinced, and her supposely NC letter to him shows no clear indication that she was ending it because it includes lines like "it's not the end" and "forever yours"). I told my wife what I did was not to break the poor girl's heart, but simply to expose the truth to her and she that deserve to know. I'm not sure if my wife "gets it" yet. But she acknowledged to me the affair was a mistake and what she did to me was wrong, and she apologized to me. I took comfort and hopefully some sense of resoution from it, but again, with lots of caution. It was no "dramatic" on her knee asking for forgiveness with tears in her eyes type of apology, we did have a 6 years old right by our side watching cartoons.

As the day goes on and our conversation continued, it all about how much they're suffering now and what's gonna happen to them after my message to OM's BS. We ended our conversation with me proving to my WW that the letter I send to OM's BS was not about revenge. I opened the message on my PC with my wife, read through the entire message slowly with her "word for word", and I asked her if she observed any sense of hostile intentions, any false claims, any further destruction, or any indication that I did it for revenge. SHE WAS NOT ABLE TO FIND IT, and she acknowledge that. However she sheepishly asked me if I can clarify one thing with the other BS about one of the details now that she's opened up with me.

At the time when I composed this message I was still in a lot of shock and confusion because I had just discover her NC e-mail wasn't at all a NC e-mail, I did not have all the answer I needed to compose my messge but I carefully choose the right words so nothing was my own speculation and everything was based on the limited information that I got from my wife. I had written to the other BS that "the affair went on for 1 1/2 year", my wife asked if I could re-address this info to other BS that the 1 1/2 year affair was mainly friendship and the sexual affair was only "one time" that things got out of control. She composed the message as me, showed it to me asked me for approval, I edited the last line where she wrote "I'll be praying for you", I added "and for him as well". We send the message.

So....here I am now, trying very hard to let go the anger and hate just and keep my calm head, and concentrate on my own healing through faith because I refuse to allow her words and actions to dictate my life and my happiness.

I warmly welcome any contructive advice and thank you so much for reading.

God Bless you

[This message edited by rightbeforebday at 10:26 AM, November 30th (Tuesday)]

Dear Rightbefore,

Sounds like a very productive discussion for you. Just to let you know, my FWH openly and honestly answered all my questions in detail about the A, but he still lied about being in contact with Skank. So now is the time for you to be verifying what she says and does. As others always say, actions speak louder than words, and in your most recent post, it sounds like she still is in the fog as she is concerned about OM's well being. Not that it isn't wonderful to be a caring human being, but she must erase him from her heart completely as though he does not exist. And the down on the knees sobbing and begging probably still is yet to come. My husband had to finally believe that I was DONE when I found out about his secret e-mail account and the secret cell phone Skank had given him.

Sending prayers to you and your family. Stand strong during this difficult time, my friend.

You can 'expect' to be blamed for "ruining thier marriage"... this always happens.

The WS and the OP never consider for a minute that the 'affair' ruined the marriage, it's always the tattling BS. ALWAYS.

What can you expect? Your wife to be PISSED at you! Everything is YOUR fault. And her anger is going to be explosive. The affair is exposed, the fantasy is in danger, the OP is probably going to dump her... and it's all your fault.

This is soooo true!

Your post rang to true to me and was so well written that I felt all the feelings of my D-day all over again. I am so sorry that you are hurting. You've been given some great advice so I won't repeat it. Just wanted to know you are in my heart. I hope that the pain you feel now will turn into the joy that my pain has turned in to. It takes some time. For me it's been 11 months since my worst D-day and I am actually thankful for the A. It brought me husband and I closer than we have ever been thanks to some hard core counseling and much needed reflection on his part. He has learned so much about himself and how to communicate and we are happier than we've ever been. If she's willing to do the work, there is light at the end of the tunnel. Good luck to you my friend. Hope your journey is smooth and complete. Happy Birthday as well.

rightbeforebday,

It sounds (reads) like you are making some good progress with your WS. As you have noticed, it is not uncommon for the WS to move back and forth in the early days between focus on the OP and focus on their own M. I can tell you that while my FWW never broke NC that I know of, it did take her (is still taking her?) a longtime to come fully back into the M. For 6 months after dday she still blamed me for ruining our M and causing the A. She said was "happy I had uncovered her A, because my forgiving her would make it easier for her to forgive me for ruining the M".

I was in no mood to ask her where did they fucked and on what date and time of day did they fucked. Appearantly at the moment I didnt' really care about that anymore.

At some point you may want addiitonal information, many of us do. If you decide you want to know more, I recomend that you have your WS write out a timeline with the details you want. This gives her time to reflect and remember the details (for FWW it was 3+ years). Having it in writing lets you refer back to it is you have a question, rather than having to re-ask a question to your WS. FWIW, it was not until 7 months after dday that with encouragement from our MC/IC and intense pressure from me that FWW gave me the details that showed me the true scope and depth of her A.

Think about what your requirements are to go forward. IC for your WS? Access to her email and phone accounts? GPS tracking on her phone? What are the consequences if she violates NC or takes the A underground?

As for MC, I do not belive it is very helpful until after the WS has done the work (ideally with a skilled IC) to understand what need he or she was trying to meet through the A and is able to own their issues.

Focus on you and your daughter, and strap yourself in for a painful ride.

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 11:05 AM, November 30th (Tuesday)]

Continue keeping the cool head you have been using. You are more cool and calm most of us have been.

Trust your instincts. Acknowledge you might not have the complete truth, but you might have it. Time will tell.

Trust but verify. Rely on your faith for help.

crazy as it sounds, I'm no religious fanatics but I did found my faith back in God and he had given me comfort to stay calm and keep my sanity throught out this ordeal. It's a great "tool" for me to stay strong and think clearly.

Not crazy at all.. It's perfect!

I am finding that there are no rules to how each one of us will heal. It is different for all of us and I am glad you and your WW are taking steps in the directions that you feel comfortable with.

In my situation, my WH is doing the actions, but I feel like I have to "remind" him or push for it way too much. I am not saying anything anymore. He knows what he needs to do, either do it, or get out of my life.

And when I feel he has done everything he needs to do, that is when I need to decide if I even want to be with him anymore. I cannot possibly decide that right now. I think you are so much further ahead of me and I give you props.